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msweet1985
Jul 1, 2009, 4:44 AM
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I just started getting into multi-pitch trad climbing recently, and have yet to develop any rope management skills for belaying my second and keeping everything with the rope organized. Any suggestions/ techniques?
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jdwynn
Jul 1, 2009, 5:05 AM
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as you belay up your second pick a spot that will best allow you to drape the rope evenly, like back and forth over your feet, a rock, a flat spot, or even a part of your anchor, get creative but with the same goal, keep your rope clean and well managed so it will pay out with no problems on the next pitch, just pay attention its not much different than ground level rope management, just a larger margin for error.
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vegastradguy
Jul 1, 2009, 7:45 AM
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when you drape the rope over your tie in or foot or whatever, start with long loops and make them progressively shorter- this prevents the loops from tangling with eachother as you feed out slack. this method is especially important if you're swapping leads.
that said, i always perfer to stack the rope if there is space on a ledge available- this way you dont have to pay as close attention to the rope as you do when you've got it coiled.
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josephgdawson
Jul 1, 2009, 7:51 AM
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For hanging belays or belyes with a very small ledge or just a couple of footholds to stand on:
- as I start bringing up my partner I will start a loop going down about twenty feet on one side of me and then drape the rope I am pulling up on the other side and let it go down about twenty feet. I then drape the loop back over the other side and let it go until it is around two feet shorter than the previous loop on that side. The long loops that are shorter than the last one keep the rope from tangling with itself when you swap leads. I have never had a problem with this method and it looks like the method of choice by those in the know in Yosemite. I have seen some people start out with 30 foot loops.
- I like to drape the loops just above my belay loop because it gives me the freedom to move my feet and squirm around when one stances gets uncomfortable. I have tried draping the rope over a foot, but you risk dropping all of the loops if your foot loses contact with the wall.
When Belaying on a big ledge:
- I just pile the rope up in a spot where it will be out of the way when the second reaches the ledge and where it will not get knocked off the ledge or knock any rocks off of the ledge.
Hopefully this makes sense.
I just did a Google search and I came up with this - see the pic on page 203.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wNN2AefeF3EC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=multi+pitch+rope+management&source=bl&ots=nnEvwdJ3Dr&sig=05qbvS8MSz_ADjeGTRs-brX-lX4&hl=en&ei=ShRLSs-7MpX0Mf26vLAC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
I cannot tell how long she is letting her loops drape down (they look too short), but the advantage of starting out with long ones is that you end up with less loops. However, you do not want the loops falling into a crack or getting caught on a knob, so you need to make shorter ones if there is potential for something below to snag the rope.
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gimmeslack
Jul 1, 2009, 9:29 AM
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In theory, the loops need to get shorter as the rope piles up, whether coiling on the belay tie in (hanging belay style) or on the ground. I find that if the pile is a loose one, it's rarely a problem. one thing that does help when NOT alternating leads, is to gingerly flip the rope pile before leader starts off on next pitch.
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king_rat
Jul 1, 2009, 9:46 AM
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josephgdawson wrote: I will start a loop going down about twenty feet on one side of me and then drape the rope I am pulling up on the other side and let it go down about twenty feet. .
Joseph has pretty much covered it, however I would just add one thing about lapping the rope in long coils.
This system works 90% of the time particularly where you have steep smooth rock, where you can see the entire rock face below you. However some rock types, have lots of little protuberances and flakes on which the rope can get caught.
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moose_droppings
Jul 1, 2009, 2:33 PM
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You can also carry a nylon bag with handles or a or use a pack and flake the rope into them. Most of the time bringing up a second I'll belay right off the anchor and clip the bag or pack on a runner right below the belay device, feeds right in.
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shimanilami
Jul 1, 2009, 3:07 PM
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A friend just loaned me a video called "Moving Faster" that has some good tips for rope management, especially if you're just beginning.
It's good to be familiar with a number of different methods: pancake stack, draping over a leg/tether/sling, buckets, etc. and to know when and how to apply them. That said, there is no substitute for experience. You'll undoubtedly go through a few CF's along the way. Try to study what went wrong so you can avoid it the next time.
PS - One thing seldom mentioned, but helpful, is to make a few decisions before you start bringing up and stacking the rope. Are you continuing upward, rapelling, or lowering? Who is going up/down first? Where is the second going to clip in when he gets to the anchor? Figure these out first and you're half way to avoiding a mess.
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shimanilami
Jul 1, 2009, 3:09 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: You can also carry a nylon bag with handles or a or use a pack and flake the rope into them. Most of the time bringing up a second I'll belay right off the anchor and clip the bag or pack on a runner right below the belay device, feeds right in.
And if you cut a little hole in the bottom, you can feed the rope from the top or bottom ... no need to flip the rope!
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brownie710
Jul 1, 2009, 3:12 PM
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the progressively smaller loops are the way to go. I usually clove myself to the anchor or use a sling to clip into the anchor and step back so it is tight and then as i belay i loop the coils over the sling so the rope is then flopped at waist level in front of me. when it's time to lead the next pitch i'm either ready to belay or simply take care and flop the pile upside down on my partners anchored sling.
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vegastradguy
Jul 1, 2009, 4:41 PM
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abe_ascends wrote: vegastradguy wrote: when you drape the rope over your tie in or foot or whatever, start with long loops and make them progressively shorter- this prevents the loops from tangling with eachother as you feed out slack. this method is especially important if you're swapping leads. Alternatively, if you are leading in blocks or are the sole leader, start with short loops and make them longer. Then when your second arrives at the belay, you flip the stack onto his/her tie-in (or foot, or whatever) so that the shorter loops are on top and won't tangle as you blast off on the next pitch.
ive personally never had good luck flipping the rope coils...i always just re-coil it. every time we flip it, it turns into a rats nest.
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shimanilami
Jul 1, 2009, 5:08 PM
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brownie710 wrote: the progressively smaller loops are the way to go ...
... unless you're leading again, in which case, progressively larger loops are the way to go.
(As I mentioned above, knowing what you're going to do next, before you start stacking, can make the difference between a smooth transition and a CF.)
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rgold
Jul 1, 2009, 6:16 PM
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As with VTG, I've never had consistently good luck flipping a stacked coil. The time spent restacking is way less than the time needed to undo the mess if the thing tangles up.
Apologies if this has been mentioned: it is important for the belayer to "stay ahead" of the pile, meaning that the belayer should at all times have twenty feet or so of unencumbered slack ready to pay out. Don't be trying to pull three feet for the leader's next move out of the pile as the leader is attempting to make that move!
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brownie710
Jul 1, 2009, 7:05 PM
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shimanilami wrote: brownie710 wrote: the progressively smaller loops are the way to go ... ... unless you're leading again, in which case, progressively larger loops are the way to go. (As I mentioned above, knowing what you're going to do next, before you start stacking, can make the difference between a smooth transition and a CF.)
shimi,
you make a good point
(This post was edited by brownie710 on Jul 1, 2009, 7:37 PM)
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moose_droppings
Jul 1, 2009, 7:11 PM
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shimanilami wrote: moose_droppings wrote: You can also carry a nylon bag with handles or a or use a pack and flake the rope into them. Most of the time bringing up a second I'll belay right off the anchor and clip the bag or pack on a runner right below the belay device, feeds right in. And if you cut a little hole in the bottom, you can feed the rope from the top or bottom ... no need to flip the rope!
Oh no, that wanker better lead the next pitch.
If I'm leading in blocks I'll ditch the bag and stack the rope in loops over my tether, then restack on to him when he arrives. Flipping the stack never pans out to well for me either, especially when its good and windy.
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brownie710
Jul 1, 2009, 7:35 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: shimanilami wrote: moose_droppings wrote: You can also carry a nylon bag with handles or a or use a pack and flake the rope into them. Most of the time bringing up a second I'll belay right off the anchor and clip the bag or pack on a runner right below the belay device, feeds right in. And if you cut a little hole in the bottom, you can feed the rope from the top or bottom ... no need to flip the rope! Oh no, that wanker better lead the next pitch. If I'm leading in blocks I'll ditch the bag and stack the rope in loops over my tether, then restack on to him when he arrives. Flipping the stack never pans out to well for me either, especially when its good and windy.
i do have to admit I too have turned many a flop into a rat's nest..even without the wind
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dhorgan
Jul 1, 2009, 8:42 PM
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rgold wrote: As with VTG, I've never had consistently good luck flipping a stacked coil. The time spent restacking is way less than the time needed to undo the mess if the thing tangles up. Apologies if this has been mentioned: it is important for the belayer to "stay ahead" of the pile, meaning that the belayer should at all times have twenty feet or so of unencumbered slack ready to pay out. Don't be trying to pull three feet for the leader's next move out of the pile as the leader is attempting to make that move!
I'd agree w/ rgold and the other folks, re-stacking when you switch leads usually pays off. Also, if at any point the question, "Do I need to re-stack the rope?" pops into your head, the answer always will turn out to be "yes". Murphy's law definitely is in force at the crag.
rgold's suggestion about "staying ahead" of the belay is really smart as well. I hadn't been doing as much slack as he suggests, but I think I will try that next time out (although as others have pointed out, got to watch for snags below your belay ledge). Really no fun to get halfway through the crux move and find out that you're locked off because of a rat's nest at the belay.
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