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Durin
Oct 21, 2009, 6:12 AM
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Since both of their founders have passed away, does anyone know what the future entails for these companies?
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tradrenn
Oct 21, 2009, 8:58 AM
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Durin wrote: Since both of their founders have passed away, does anyone know what the future entails for these companies?
Don't know, but I do hope that in future we can work out some nice relationship between RC.comers and CCH, for the good of all of us.
I hope Nadia would be willing to listen to us.
Respectfully
Voytek Renn
Alien user.
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angry
Oct 21, 2009, 11:11 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, neither of these companies were large enough to be public. It all depends on whether family members want to take things further or not.
My wild guesses would be that Acopa will sell out their stock and quit unless one of their current employees buys it.
CCH is more tricky. Remember, the cam design is for sale but if production is taken outside of the Laramie bubble, the cam is likely to cost $120-$130 apiece. This is what has halted their sale, not stubbornness on Dave's behalf.
In 1999 when I was working at CCH and a total n00b climber, he turned everything off at 3:00 and said he had an appointment. I called a friend and told him we should go to Vedauwoo. We went there and I redpointed "Friday the 13th" for my first time. While I'm setting up the anchor I looked down and saw Dave walk up. I guess we had the same appointment.
You should have seen the looks he gave me when I told him how much I'd been in the weight room to prepare for my first Indian Creek trip.
In both cases, I'll miss the man more than their product.
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johnwesely
Oct 21, 2009, 12:18 PM
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angry wrote: CCH is more tricky. Remember, the cam design is for sale but if production is taken outside of the Laramie bubble, the cam is likely to cost $120-$130 apiece. This is what has halted their sale, not stubbornness on Dave's behalf.
Why is that?
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petsfed
Oct 21, 2009, 1:25 PM
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The labor's cheap. Mind you, most of his workers are complete dirtbags who don't mind the low pay.
The internal cam spring thing (which keeps aliens so narrow) is very labor intensive and accounting for that would drive up production costs. The only way to get away with it is to pay minimum wage, which simply wouldn't be possible in a larger shop like BD or Metolius.
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zeke_sf
Oct 21, 2009, 1:46 PM
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angry wrote: You should have seen the looks he gave me when I told him how much I'd been in the weight room to prepare for my first Indian Creek trip. In both cases, I'll miss the man more than their product.
Great line. I'll have to remark on hitting the weights before climbing sometime. Maybe I'll save it for when I climb with JT512. Yes.
Hopefully, Aliens will remain with us. I'd hate to see that increase on the $ though.
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johnwesely
Oct 21, 2009, 2:13 PM
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Isn't the black diamond shop in China?
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adam3
Oct 21, 2009, 2:22 PM
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Utah.. but they do get little things here and there made out of China like everyone else..
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petsfed
Oct 21, 2009, 2:36 PM
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adam3 wrote: Utah.. but they do get little things here and there made out of China like everyone else..
Really?
Cost of living is too high in the States to do a lot of manufacturing. Downside to the must-grow-at-all-costs ideal of economics is that as the profits grow, so too do the prices of goods and services and therefore the cost of living.
Manufacturing at minimum wage in the states is basically unheard of.
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johnwesely
Oct 21, 2009, 3:01 PM
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rmsusa
Oct 21, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Acopa is a fairly successful Mexican company that's been producing shoes and selling them in Mexico for years. They seem to want to continue that. The US distributor is the question mark.
Aliens? I love 'em, but is there enough in them to bother with?
In reply to: ... Downside to the must-grow-at-all-costs ideal of economics is that as the profits grow, so too do the prices of goods and services and therefore the cost of living.
There's no particular link between profits & prices. Profits can increase by selling more units, with no change in prices. Prices can increase with no change in profits by maintaining margin in the face of increases in input costs.
Where did you hear of a "growth at all costs" ideal in economics?
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hafilax
Oct 21, 2009, 3:20 PM
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Acopa is an American company based in Las Vegas with a factory in Mexico. They bought an existing factory in 2003 but I wouldn't call the current form of Acopa a Mexican company. I don't think US distribution is an issue.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 21, 2009, 3:27 PM
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Am I correct in that Aliens are generally unavailable at the moment?
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naitch
Oct 21, 2009, 4:12 PM
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hafilax wrote: Acopa is an American company based in Las Vegas with a factory in Mexico. They bought an existing factory in 2003 but I wouldn't call the current form of Acopa a Mexican company. I don't think US distribution is an issue.
Agreed...what will be lacking/missed is John as the shoe designer. We'll have the current batch of shoes that they offer (which are some of the best), however we may not be offered the innovation that John brought in the past.
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rmsusa
Oct 21, 2009, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: Acopa is an American company based in Las Vegas with a factory in Mexico. They bought an existing factory in 2003
That's interesting to know. So Dario sold Acopa, Equipo Deportivo, SA de CV to Acopa International, LLC? Did it happen just after the accident?
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petsfed
Oct 21, 2009, 4:33 PM
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rmsusa wrote: Acopa is a fairly successful Mexican company that's been producing shoes and selling them in Mexico for years. They seem to want to continue that. The US distributor is the question mark. Aliens? I love 'em, but is there enough in them to bother with? In reply to: ... Downside to the must-grow-at-all-costs ideal of economics is that as the profits grow, so too do the prices of goods and services and therefore the cost of living. There's no particular link between profits & prices. Profits can increase by selling more units, with no change in prices. Prices can increase with no change in profits by maintaining margin in the face of increases in input costs. Where did you hear of a "growth at all costs" ideal in economics?
Seems obvious to me. I mean, everybody freaks out when growth drops below a certain rate, even if its still growing.
My point is that you either increase profits by selling more units, or by raising prices. If demand stays constant, you won't increase profits without raising prices. That's basic math.
Mind you, if other industries are increasing prices to increase profits or cover increasing operating costs or whatever, eventually you'll have to increase wages to be commensurate with the cost of living of your employees. Which means your expenses go up, so you either have to increase sales or increase prices to cover it. None of this complicated economic theory, its just simple math.
My take on the theory side of things is that so long as we measure economic health in terms of economic growth, we'll continue to see prices increase without any measurable increase in quality. In that sense, growth drives inflation.
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hafilax
Oct 21, 2009, 4:56 PM
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rmsusa wrote: In reply to: Acopa is an American company based in Las Vegas with a factory in Mexico. They bought an existing factory in 2003 That's interesting to know. So Dario sold Acopa, Equipo Deportivo, SA de CV to Acopa International, LLC? Did it happen just after the accident?
http://www.acopausa.com/
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dlintz
Oct 21, 2009, 4:57 PM
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tradrenn wrote: Durin wrote: Since both of their founders have passed away, does anyone know what the future entails for these companies? Don't know, but I do hope that in future we can work out some nice relationship between RC.comers and CCH, for the good of all of us. I hope Nadia would be willing to listen to us. Respectfully Voytek Renn Alien user.
I understand your intention but everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion as well as how they express it.
d.
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hafilax
Oct 21, 2009, 4:59 PM
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petsfed wrote: rmsusa wrote: Acopa is a fairly successful Mexican company that's been producing shoes and selling them in Mexico for years. They seem to want to continue that. The US distributor is the question mark. Aliens? I love 'em, but is there enough in them to bother with? In reply to: ... Downside to the must-grow-at-all-costs ideal of economics is that as the profits grow, so too do the prices of goods and services and therefore the cost of living. There's no particular link between profits & prices. Profits can increase by selling more units, with no change in prices. Prices can increase with no change in profits by maintaining margin in the face of increases in input costs. Where did you hear of a "growth at all costs" ideal in economics? Seems obvious to me. I mean, everybody freaks out when growth drops below a certain rate, even if its still growing. My point is that you either increase profits by selling more units, or by raising prices. If demand stays constant, you won't increase profits without raising prices. That's basic math. Mind you, if other industries are increasing prices to increase profits or cover increasing operating costs or whatever, eventually you'll have to increase wages to be commensurate with the cost of living of your employees. Which means your expenses go up, so you either have to increase sales or increase prices to cover it. None of this complicated economic theory, its just simple math. My take on the theory side of things is that so long as we measure economic health in terms of economic growth, we'll continue to see prices increase without any measurable increase in quality. In that sense, growth drives inflation.
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nkane
Oct 21, 2009, 5:29 PM
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petsfed wrote: My point is that you either increase profits by selling more units, or by raising prices. If demand stays constant, you won't increase profits without raising prices. That's basic math.
You could also cut costs.
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scotty1974
Oct 21, 2009, 5:37 PM
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Don't know about future production runs, but you can still find aliens. I don't think they are carried as widespread, but I run into them all the time on the web.
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rmsusa
Oct 21, 2009, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: Seems obvious to me. I mean, everybody freaks out when growth drops below a certain rate, even if its still growing. My point is that you either increase profits by selling more units, or by raising prices. If demand stays constant, you won't increase profits without raising prices. That's basic math. Mind you, if other industries are increasing prices to increase profits or cover increasing operating costs or whatever, eventually you'll have to increase wages to be commensurate with the cost of living of your employees. Which means your expenses go up, so you either have to increase sales or increase prices to cover it. None of this complicated economic theory, its just simple math. My take on the theory side of things is that so long as we measure economic health in terms of economic growth, we'll continue to see prices increase without any measurable increase in quality. In that sense, growth drives inflation.
Well.... "growth at all costs" isn't any kind of an ideal, but growth is important. That's just a sort of sound bite that evokes an emotional response around a very complex issue.
It may help if you think of it this way. If population increases, we have to provide new goods and services to provide for the additions or living standards fall since everybody can't have the same amount of goods & services anymore. So growth in the quantity of goods & services is important. If the central bankers get things right (low inflation), money is just a proxy for goods & services, so we measure the results in money.
Now think about a country like China, where over half a million people live in abject poverty. We're talking here about not having the wherewithall to buy a pair of shoes and living without clean water, refrigeration or any kind of medical care. We have a moral imperative to increase the goods and services available in a situation like that. It would be nice if every house had a toilet, and maybe a refrigerator. Producing those things means economic growth, period. This is why it's so important that the underdeveloped countries grow their economies. Remember, again, that money is just a proxy for goods & services.
In your profit discussion, you haven't taken productivity increases or reduction in prices of inputs into account. Either of these things can increase profits in a situation of static demand.
It is certainly simple math, but you have to have a conceptual framework that takes all the variables into account. This is why economics education is so important.
Most of the people who take economic health to be equivalent to economic growth seem to me to be news anchors whose currency is simplicity and sound bites (or maybe politicians).
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rmsusa
Oct 21, 2009, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: anything is better than a model based solely on increasing profits.
I'm gonna say it again. There is no model based solely on increasing profits except in the minds of wacky ideologues.
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