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brokesomeribs
Nov 12, 2009, 3:37 AM
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Forgive me if this is more appropriate to the Trad Forum. I wasn't sure which of the two forums was the better choice, and seeing as I believe the SNR is quite a bit higher here, thus my choice made.
For most of my climbing career, my favored multi-pitch anchor has been the good old cordalette. I've played around with both the equallette and Paul Raphaelson's ACR (which I was surprised to like an awful lot) but generally just stick with the good old cordalette tied out of standard 7mm nylon cord (Bluewater, to be specific).
Now as a Gunks climber, 90% of my gear anchors are 3 pieces of pro in an ultra-bomber horizontal. Every now and then I need to shorten my cordalette (to adjust the height for a proper auto-block, to avoid a sharp edge, etc). Up till now, I've just been putting in an overhand on a bight to take up some of the extra length, but this is often a real PITA to untie if repeatedly weighted, so I was thinking:
Would it be acceptable to shorten one of the arms of a cordalette with two clove hitches? i.e. tie a CH in each side of the "arm" coming up from the power point.
Also, while we're on the topic of multi-pitch anchors...
I've often wondered, as a measure to prevent a FF2 fall onto the belayer's ATC, can the leader clip his first draw into a higher point of the anchor before he starts climbing? I was thinking clip it either into (or around) the strongest leg of the cordalette above the powerpoint. Could this potentially compromise that arm of the anchor? Or compromise the entire anchor? But seeing as a fall onto the belayer's ATC (i.e. a full FF2 fall) is just about the worst possible thing in climbing, does this measure of preventing a FF2 offset the potentially added stress to the anchor?
Thoughts on either scenario wold be greatly appreciated. If my descriptions were unclear, I can probably take some pictures of a mock setup.
Thanks!
EDIT: for clarity
(This post was edited by brokesomeribs on Nov 12, 2009, 6:13 AM)
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mikebee
Nov 12, 2009, 12:04 PM
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In reply to: i.e. tie a CH in each side of the "arm" coming up from the power point.
Do you mean tie two clovehitches onto the single carabiner attached to the piece of gear?
That would work (clove hitches are used in this way on the equalette), though someone might pipe up about the second clove loading the carabiner quite far away from the spine of the biner, potentially weakening it.
If I was wanting to shorten a leg, and not use a overhand, I'd probably tie an Alpine Butterfly, as these are quite easy to undo after loading.
Personally, however, if I'm using a cordalette and I'm not happy with the equalisation, I tend to untie and then re-equalise the arms, and then retie the masterpoint.
In reply to: I was thinking clip it either into (or around) the strongest leg of the cordalette above the powerpoint.
This is a common technique. I was even taught this when I did a mountaineering course a while back.
I tend to do it when there is no mega obvious pro right at the start of the pitch, and it looks like a fall is a possibility. If the first moves of the belay are a piece of cake and there is bomber #1 C4 3m off the ledge, then I won't bother.
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sittingduck
Nov 12, 2009, 1:28 PM
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LostinMaine
Nov 12, 2009, 1:34 PM
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brokesomeribs wrote: Forgive me if this is more appropriate to the Trad Forum. I wasn't sure which of the two forums was the better choice, and seeing as I believe the SNR is quite a bit higher here, thus my choice made. For most of my climbing career, my favored multi-pitch anchor has been the good old cordalette. I've played around with both the equallette and Paul Raphaelson's ACR (which I was surprised to like an awful lot) but generally just stick with the good old cordalette tied out of standard 7mm nylon cord (Bluewater, to be specific). Now as a Gunks climber, 90% of my gear anchors are 3 pieces of pro in an ultra-bomber horizontal. Every now and then I need to shorten my cordalette (to adjust the height for a proper auto-block, to avoid a sharp edge, etc). Up till now, I've just been putting in an overhand on a bight to take up some of the extra length, but this is often a real PITA to untie if repeatedly weighted, so I was thinking: Would it be acceptable to shorten one of the arms of a cordalette with two clove hitches? i.e. tie a CH in each side of the "arm" coming up from the power point. Also, while we're on the topic of multi-pitch anchors... I've often wondered, as a measure to prevent a FF2 fall onto the belayer's ATC, can the leader clip his first draw into a higher point of the anchor before he starts climbing? I was thinking clip it either into (or around) the strongest leg of the cordalette above the powerpoint. Could this potentially compromise that arm of the anchor? Or compromise the entire anchor? But seeing as a fall onto the belayer's ATC (i.e. a full FF2 fall) is just about the worst possible thing in climbing, does this measure of preventing a FF2 offset the potentially added stress to the anchor? Thoughts on either scenario wold be greatly appreciated. If my descriptions were unclear, I can probably take some pictures of a mock setup. Thanks! EDIT: for clarity
I got away from leaving a cordalette tied in a loop maybe 5 years ago and have never looked back since. I take my 18' of cord and tie it to length for every anchor after each arm is the appropriate length. If I messed up on the length, I untie it and start again.
If I did want to adjust arm length on a cordalette anchor, I wouldn't recommend tying two clove hitches. Why not just tie a single clove hitch? A little slack in the "other side" of the loop won't hurt much. In fact, you would need to take up a lot of slack to tie two clove hitches in one arm...
Having said that, I only find that a cordalette is appropriate for routes maybe 5 to 10% of the time. I generally am not happy with loading a single piece because of unequal cordalette arm lengths. I often use a modified equalette setup that gives me three strands between the two limiter knots so that I have a "shelf" to clip in to (and also attach an oppositional piece).
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socalclimber
Nov 12, 2009, 2:55 PM
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There is nothing wrong with using a clove hitch to build an anchor from a cordelette. This technique has been around for years.
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johnwesely
Nov 12, 2009, 3:54 PM
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I almost always clip into the high piece unless the climbing above the belay is obviously well protected or easy.
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charlie.elverson
Nov 12, 2009, 3:58 PM
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As it was said ealier, one clove hitch is fine. It's a good idea to put cloves on lockers because from what I've seen they can ride up in weird ways and unlock a gate (Has anyone else ever noticed this?). Also, it's a good idea to have a figure 8 on a bite or overhand on a bite backing up the clove hitch. I've never had a clove hitch slip and use the backup knot, but none the less I've been told it's a good idea.
My setup is a length of cord with a figure 8 tied in each end. If I need the whole length I just clip the figure 8 to the piece. If I want to shorten it I clove hitch one or both of the arms and throw the already tied 8 on the biner with the CH for a bit of backup.
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hafilax
Nov 12, 2009, 4:39 PM
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For the FF2 situation, I believe it is better to place an independent piece if at all possible rather than clip one piece of the anchor. Clipping one piece is sometimes the best that can be done but only if you're sure that ripping that piece will still leave a solid anchor. Sometimes the belayer can lower a bit and you can clip the power point. As always it depends on the situation.
I don't think you need 2 clove hitches to shorten an arm of the cordelette. Just think of it as a hybrid between the cordelette and the equalette. Definitely avoid putting 2 clove hitches on a single biner. Biners are only strong if loaded along the spine which is why care must be taken to put the loaded strand of the clove hitch next to the spine.
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joeforte
Nov 12, 2009, 4:41 PM
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To address the "first piece" issue, I often climb past the belay and place the first piece for the next pitch.
If I'm going to be leading the next pitch, I'll clip it, and downclimb to the belay. If I want, I can use that piece to beef up the anchor by incorporating my rope into the anchor.
If I'm not leading the next pitch, I'll just hang a draw on it, or sling it long (with dyneema to minimize stretching) and use it as a part of the anchor if I want. My partner can then clip it as he leads the next pitch.
This has a few advantages, especially when I'm leading the next pitch, because I'm already clipped into a high piece right off of the belay.
Another advantage is that with the first piece already clipped, I can make sure I don't use up that piece as part of the main anchor. The first piece takes the most force in a fall (less rope out), so you want to make sure you have the right size and type for it (must be bomber).
Yet another advantage is that if the climbing is hard up to the first piece, and you do it as part of the end of the last pitch, there is a lot of rope out, and a fall before that first piece would have much lower consequences.
Of course there are some instances where this is not the best solution (for example if you used the piece already in the last pitch or anchor), but I tend to do this 80% of the time, when possible. Consider it for you bag of tricks!
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knudenoggin
Nov 12, 2009, 5:16 PM
Post #10 of 17
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brokesomeribs wrote: For most of my climbing career, my favored multi-pitch anchor has been the good old cord elette. ... Now as a Gunks climber, 90% of my gear anchors are 3 pieces of pro in an ultra-bomber horizontal. Every now and then I need to shorten my cordalette (to adjust the height for a proper auto-block, to avoid a sharp edge, etc). Up till now, I've just been putting in an overhand on a bight to take up some of the extra length, but this is often a real PITA to untie if repeatedly weighted, so I was thinking:
Huh?
Where / how is it you're putting in an Overhand eye knot?
-- do you mean that you tie it in some part of the rope just
to consume material, and it's thus loaded like the EDK (eye
unloaded, ends pulled apart)? Or do you mean that instead
of just clipping a bight to the anchor you make this eye knot
and thus consume a little more rope?
The Constrictor knot (Google) has the same form as an old
sling shortener (where ends pull back away, and the two
loops of the binder reach in the opposite direction; the
*knotting*, interlaced part lying mid-span, and adjusted
per need.
In reply to: Would it be acceptable to shorten one of the arms of a cordalette with two clove hitches? i.e. tie a CH in each side of the "arm" coming up from the power point.
The Clove (like the similar Constrictor) needs something to be
tied around -- you want to, what, Clove hitch a 'biner
mid-span to consume material, then? Doable, but needless, IMO.
As another responder wrote, you should be able to adjust your
cordelette when setting it up, and tie it off as desired, however
long/short. And you don't need (maybe stronger: shouldn't have)
the cordelette's ends tied off -- they can hang free out of the
powerpoint knot, the other two bights/eyes there amply strong
for clipping to. (You can also tie off the ends with the EDK snug
to the powerpoint knot, 2 B Sure.)
Actually, re-reading your post, it sounds as though you're trying to
work with a cordelette configuration pre-tied and then adapted to
each situation -- otherwise, I shouldn't think that in setting it up
you could have enough variance/slack in anchor arms to enable
the tying of much of anything (maybe put an extra turn on a 'biner)!?
Otherwise, even if you DO have the ends knotted with a Grapevine,
you can arrange to have this knotted point on the clip-side of the
powerpoint knot, and let it be as long (and unclipped -- nb) as
need be so that the anchor arms are right-sized to have your
clip-in point where you want it -- i.e., you shouldn't be trying
to have the three short bights the same length and all clipped to,
you only need two, and the third can be untied (as noted) and as
long as there is surplus material.
*kN*
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knudenoggin
Nov 12, 2009, 5:30 PM
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charlie.elverson wrote: As it was said ealier, one clove hitch is fine. It's a good idea to put cloves on lockers because from what I've seen they can ride up in weird ways and unlock a gate (Has anyone else ever noticed this?).
That's quite a follow-up cautionary note to the assertion that "clove
hitches are fine" ! Kinda like "the EDK is fine, just leave long tails"
sounds. If the knot deforms that much, I don't think it's fine, locker
or not: there could be knot-holding issues or 'biner-loading ones.
In reply to: Also, it's a good idea to have a figure 8 on a [bight] or overhand ... backing up the clove hitch.
Whoa, this has nothing to do with the OP, which was about tying
clove hitches in a cordelette arm, "one on each side" !?
*kN*
(This post was edited by knudenoggin on Nov 14, 2009, 2:15 AM)
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acorneau
Nov 12, 2009, 5:56 PM
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Another idea:
Tie a figure-9 knot (or more wraps) as your main knot to suck up the extra cord. As a side benefit, it makes it really easy to untie after loading.
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notapplicable
Nov 12, 2009, 6:13 PM
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Some thoughts on the issue of clipping an arm of the anchor as your first piece:
1. You might want to do a search. There have been a number of conversations on this topic that got pretty indepth and include some very interesting musings on a subject that really amounts to an intersection of the highly variable. Anchor construction, placement integrity, modes of failure and corresponding implications for anchor and belay integrity, the realities of catching a FF2 fall, etc...all largely theoretical. What happens when you bring them together?
2. I personally don't suggest it; if the piece were to fail all manner of chaos could ensue. Worst case scenario I suppose would be total anchor failure and if one piece has already blown, I don't think it impossible to picture the other two doing so when unevenly shockloaded. That aside, lets assume for a minute that the anchor holds. Prior to the failure of the top piece, you are going to be jerked upward and thrashed about by a pretty damn hard fall but when the piece fails, not only is that going to happen again in a downward direction but your belay device and hand positioning are going to be for a fall where the rope runs up, not down. I think catching a FF2 under ideal conditions is going to be pretty damn epic but factor in the violence involved in beginning to catch a lead fall that transitions to a downward load, combined with a near instant reversal of belay device/brake hand orientation and I think the likelihood of an uncontrollable belay goes through the roof. I do not see the climber surviving unless you are wearing gloves and are strong as an ox.
3. If you want to clip a portion of the anchor as your first piece, I personally like Hafilax's suggestion of rigging a high masterpoint and extending the belayer below it so that the MP itself can be clipped as a first piece. If you decide to clip an arm of the anchor, you definitely want to build the anchor with its failure in mind.
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adatesman
Nov 12, 2009, 7:08 PM
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brokesomeribs
Nov 12, 2009, 7:35 PM
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Go ahead and move away, Aric. No complaints here.
Woah, tons of great info here. Too much for me to actually get away with reviewing while I'm at work. I'll take a proper look this evening and reply as necessary.
Thanks everyone!
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 13, 2009, 2:14 PM
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brokesomeribs wrote: Now as a Gunks climber, 90% of my gear anchors are 3 pieces of pro in an ultra-bomber horizontal. Every now and then I need to shorten my cordalette (to adjust the height for a proper auto-block, to avoid a sharp edge, etc). Up till now, I've just been putting in an overhand on a bight to take up some of the extra length, but this is often a real PITA to untie if repeatedly weighted, so I was thinking:
Usually what I do, if my cordellete is longer than I would like, I tie an overhand on a bight as the powerpoint and then fold the excess over and clip into the powerpoint. This allows you to put it exactly where you want it. (forgive me if this is what you said you do, but it didn't sound like it. It sounded like you just tie a knot to take up extra slack).
In reply to: Also, while we're on the topic of multi-pitch anchors... I've often wondered, as a measure to prevent a FF2 fall onto the belayer's ATC, can the leader clip his first draw into a higher point of the anchor before he starts climbing? I was thinking clip it either into (or around) the strongest leg of the cordalette above the powerpoint. Could this potentially compromise that arm of the anchor? Or compromise the entire anchor? But seeing as a fall onto the belayer's ATC (i.e. a full FF2 fall) is just about the worst possible thing in climbing, does this measure of preventing a FF2 offset the potentially added stress to the anchor?
Clipping into a single piece of the anchor as your first piece usually isn't advisable, but may be your best option depending on the circumstance. The optimal situation has you build a high anchor that allows you to clip into the power point as a first piece. Another good option is what Joeforte said, about the leader fixing a first piece, clipping into it, and then building an anchor. I often feel that clipping a single piece is better than nothing and the better it is, the better I feel about it (larger cam, good bolt, etc.). Sometimes your best option is just NOT TO FALL, however.
Josh
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Nov 13, 2009, 2:15 PM)
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dugl33
Nov 14, 2009, 2:42 AM
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1.) a single clove is fine for shortening a cordellete arm. Worst case, the clove will slip a little. If the load is so great as to cause this, a little slip is probably a good thing anyway.
2.) If readily available, clip into an independent piece for the next pitch first piece.
3.) If no gear is readily available above the anchor, lower down 10 - 15 feet from the anchor. (make sure you like everything about your set up first. You can just tie into your master point lockers with a bunch of slack, and rap down to your harnass tie in knot). Redirect the seconds line through a draw on the master point before lowering down. When they head up and beyond the anchor, even if they fall, its not a factor 2, its absorbed by the entire anchor, and its not hard to catch.
4.) If the rigamorale of the scenario above seems overkill (fall not that likely) you can also clip a piece on the anchor with a screamer rather than a normal draw, to take a little teeth out of hard fall. Of course, you are out 15 bucks if the next leader falls on it, but it will be worth it.
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