Instead of using a harness, me and some of my crazy buddies would rap a few coils of rope around our waists and finish it of with this bowline.

FYI: Also known as a bowline on a coil.

Yours is not the first or the last experience to have the bowline untie.

http://www.rockandice.com/...1&type=accidents

It seems unlikely that after a fall a properly tied double bowline would "hold momentarily" and then "unravel."

Clearly been sucking at that stone tit too long, but then the other infant in the picture looks like he got all the brains in the family.

Mikebarter has lesbians living next door and he shaves with a katana... nuff said.

Y'all crack me up.

As far as the "standard" not being a "standard", I must have read all the books wrong, and gotten bad instruction from the industry leading experts.

I'll go throw away all of my referance material now...damn and I thought following printed material was an acceptable method of learning.

So...apparently, these are wrong: http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/books.html

that link has nothing to do with a bowline untying.

Jay

No, but a little bit of googling with the "rock and ice" tag turned up these.

Top roping on a sport route at Rifle:

http://www.rockandice.com/...5&type=accidents

On a multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks;

http://www.rockandice.com/...=21&type=gearguy

I didn't check my partner's knot before it came untied, but it's the same sort of knot he had been using successfully for more than a decade before we climbed together.

So now we have three stories of improperly tied bowlines "failing."

Jay

A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.

A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.

how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a figure-eight follow-through before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.

Of the 4 books I own from that linked page, and the 3 courses I have taken, and my 2 SAR-RR manuals that I also checked, I can not find a single reference to backing up retraced knots versus non-retraced. I can however find glaring errors in at least one of those textbooks.

All I was saying is that "standards" aren't always so standard. Just objecting to a broad generalization.

I can see the logic behind the idea you mention, but I tend to push my team more towards learning how to tie the knot properly in the first place instead of relying on a backup.

BTW - do you back up your water knots as well?

The same number of times that he and his climbing partner would have to improperly double check his knot?

Works just as well this way:

A logic question: how many times would jt512 have to "improperly" tie a bowline before he stopped using it? Correct answer: if he fell died, only once.

A better logic question: Why are supposed bowline failures never reproducible with properly tied bowlines?

Jay

A better logic question: Why are supposed bowline failures never reproducible with properly tied bowlines?

Jay

Please fill us in on all the accidents due to this.

Well, there's the famous Lynn Hill accident. And I know of people who have started up a route, only to find that they never finished tying their figure eight.

Jay

Says who? That's a real question.

I was under the impression she had used a bowline, but I may be wrong. I met her once in the Frey, but I didn't ask her personally about this.