|
cracklover
Dec 21, 2009, 8:12 PM
Post #3 of 33
(16041 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
Any idea what the climb was?
GO
|
|
|
|
|
fdel13
Dec 21, 2009, 9:41 PM
Post #4 of 33
(15963 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2009
Posts: 10
|
DenverPost.com//Craig B. wrote: being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device
Somone there commented they were using a 50m rope as well when climb requires 60m. Glad he's apparently okay.
Too bad it's not more of a best practice to tie a knot in end of line or take a similar preventive measure. I think there's a bit of a stigma attached to it, that to do so is n00b when "obviously" there's enough rope. However it doesn't take too much to change sometimes, for that to be a fatal mistake.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Dec 21, 2009, 9:54 PM
Post #5 of 33
(15942 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
I have a habit of loosely knotting one end of the rope to a loop in my rope bag. I've considered dressing it a bit better, but my active ropes are all 60m, and I'm usually at familiar crags. I hope the climber mends well.
Here's the whole comment from the linked article:
Craig B wrote: I was there when this happened and there are a couple of inaccuracies in this story. The most significant is that he fell far more than 20 feet. The fall was somewhere around 35 feet. He was being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device. Based on the position of the rope after the accident, it appears he was climbing on a 50-meter rope. The climb he was on requires a 60-meter rope. A 50-meter rope is 33 feet too short. He is very lucky to have survived that fall. Best wishes as he recovers.
(This post was edited by markc on Dec 21, 2009, 9:55 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
pfwein
Dec 21, 2009, 10:04 PM
Post #6 of 33
(15921 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 8, 2009
Posts: 353
|
fdel13 wrote: DenverPost.com//Craig B. wrote: being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device Somone there commented they were using a 50m rope as well when climb requires 60m. Glad he's apparently okay. Too bad it's not more of a best practice to tie a knot in end of line or take a similar preventive measure. I think there's a bit of a stigma attached to it, that to do so is n00b when "obviously" there's enough rope. However it doesn't take too much to change sometimes, for that to be a fatal mistake.
Funny that we all have our experiences that, unless you climb with a bunch of different people in different places, may not reflect other people's all that closely.
There's certainly no stigma in tying a knot in the end of the rope in my little circle, either always or always except for when you know you are on a shorty climb and there is no question whatsoever of even getting close to an end.
And among anyone who uses the term "best practice" in connection with climbing, I've got to think knot in the end (or equivalent) is at the top of the list of things to make a "best practice." Certainly the most common cause of easily-preventable user error that I've seen.
Don't meant to bust of fdel13, just very surprised that someone has experienced the reported stigma--that would be like a stigma on checking that your knot is properly tied, locking biners are locked, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Dec 22, 2009, 1:37 AM
Post #7 of 33
(15849 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
pfwein wrote: Don't meant to bust of fdel13, just very surprised that someone has experienced the reported stigma--that would be like a stigma on checking that your knot is properly tied, locking biners are locked, etc.
I recall a time when my circle of friends became a bit lax with partner checks, me included. It was when we started getting comfortable with climbing. I've seen not-quite-new people treat partner checks like an accusation of incompetence. Once you realize that you can go on auto-pilot and that really good climbers have checked out as a result, that line of thought stops cold.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Dec 22, 2009, 2:47 AM
Post #8 of 33
(15812 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
There are a number of areas around here where you get looked at with amused tolerance if you knot the end of a rope. Most are climbs that are short...but some of them would tax a 50m. Still, people assume they know how long their ropes are.
Yeah, the low profile way is to leave one end tied into the rope bag.
And, even though the tolerance is amused - it is still tolerance. Go ahead and tie the knot.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Dec 23, 2009, 9:34 PM
Post #9 of 33
(15638 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
Is it true that there are some places that other climbers laugh at knot tying? Anyone who would smirk at someone for tying a knot in the other end of their rope is a moron.
A girl either rappelled or was lowered off a short rope to her death at Cat Slab years ago. I always tie a knot just in case I grab the wrong rope or mixed up which one is longer, etc.
(This post was edited by timstich on Dec 23, 2009, 9:37 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Dec 23, 2009, 9:56 PM
Post #10 of 33
(15617 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
bill413 wrote: There are a number of areas around here where you get looked at with amused tolerance if you knot the end of a rope. Most are climbs that are short...but some of them would tax a 50m. Still, people assume they know how long their ropes are. Yeah, the low profile way is to leave one end tied into the rope bag. And, even though the tolerance is amused - it is still tolerance. Go ahead and tie the knot.
I nearly learned that lesson the hard way. I don't have any problem tying a back up knot. Shoot, I've done it in the gym when using the gym's ropes. I have no desire to fall suddenly when I thought I was being lowered smoothly.
Too bad. Hope the climber heals up well and has learned a lesson.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Dec 24, 2009, 12:23 PM
Post #11 of 33
(15517 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
timstich wrote: Is it true that there are some places that other climbers laugh at knot tying? Anyone who would smirk at someone for tying a knot in the other end of their rope is a moron. A girl either rappelled or was lowered off a short rope to her death at Cat Slab years ago. I always tie a knot just in case I grab the wrong rope or mixed up which one is longer, etc.
Don't forget that the "length" of a route is just a guess by some stoner. No-one drops a measuring tape down a route.
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Dec 24, 2009, 1:06 PM
Post #12 of 33
(15506 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
angry wrote: timstich wrote: Is it true that there are some places that other climbers laugh at knot tying? Anyone who would smirk at someone for tying a knot in the other end of their rope is a moron. A girl either rappelled or was lowered off a short rope to her death at Cat Slab years ago. I always tie a knot just in case I grab the wrong rope or mixed up which one is longer, etc. Don't forget that the "length" of a route is just a guess by some stoner. No-one drops a measuring tape down a route.
Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate.
|
|
|
|
|
olderic
Dec 24, 2009, 3:14 PM
Post #13 of 33
(15458 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
|
zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate.
Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
|
|
|
|
|
troutboy
Dec 24, 2009, 3:47 PM
Post #14 of 33
(15441 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 903
|
olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
Us real old schoolers prefer cubits.
TS
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Dec 24, 2009, 4:35 PM
Post #15 of 33
(15407 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
Awesome.
|
|
|
|
|
bhickey
Dec 24, 2009, 10:05 PM
Post #16 of 33
(15355 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 46
|
olderic wrote: Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
I love seeing "Halfway to hell" when I walk to work.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Dec 25, 2009, 12:50 AM
Post #17 of 33
(15316 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
Someone is saying it was actually Highlander Crag and not Highwire over on mp.com
|
|
|
|
|
clmbr
Dec 26, 2009, 12:50 AM
Post #18 of 33
(15250 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Posts: 29
|
Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Dec 26, 2009, 3:45 AM
Post #19 of 33
(15216 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
clmbr wrote: Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go.
I understand your perspective, but my opinion differs. I rarely tie stopper knots, even when rappelling multipitch routes. I understand and accept the risk I'm taking. I feel there are other steps I can take to protect myself, and there are occasions where stopper knots can do more harm than good.
I don't mean to offend, but there are a couple points in your story where you clearly weren't paying sufficient attention. Roughly estimating 40' of rope isn't difficult, and most people would pull a few extra arm-lengths for good measure. You pulled half that. You said you glanced down and everything looked good. If I'm not 100% certain both ends are down, I'll ask for verification, make sure I'm at the middle of the rope, etc. The stopper knot kept your ass off the deck, but there were two earlier steps that could have done the same.
edit-typo
(This post was edited by markc on Dec 26, 2009, 2:45 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Dec 26, 2009, 12:31 PM
Post #20 of 33
(15170 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
troutboy wrote: olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears" Us real old schoolers prefer cubits. TS
I use the cubit measuring system all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Man_Measurements.png
|
|
|
|
|
robdotcalm
Dec 29, 2009, 4:02 AM
Post #21 of 33
(14988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1027
|
Having known several competent climbers who’ve been “lowered” into an accident because the end of the rope went through the belay device, I’ve commented about this in several threads on the subject. This past November, I ran across something new. I had a day of guided climbing. At the end of the day, we had some time for toproping. The guide started to belay me without a knot in his end of the rope. I asked that he put a knot there. He said it wasn’t necessary and only somebody who was unaware of what he was doing would put a knot in the rope. I said, “OK, I have a low level of awareness” and then knotted his end of the rope before I started up. He acted insulted. I was discouraged to think that in his job he teaches beginners.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Dec 29, 2009, 5:16 PM
Post #23 of 33
(14914 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
robdotcalm wrote: He acted insulted. I was discouraged to think that in his job he teaches beginners. Cheers, Rob.calm
Not only that but:
* My guess is this was your first time and probably last time climbing with him. Extra measures matter.
* In one short day of climbing you can in no way measure someone's awareness. If Dingus was your belay and on *that* day there was 9 blondes in a conga line next to you Dingus would be fully unaware. You'd have no accidents but you'd also have no measure of his awareness.  (I'm only quoting Dingus here.)
* The guide is an idiot. Redundancy is safe climbing. A knot in the ends of the rope or tying in make a rope redundant. Without them you have one single point of protection.
* The only way I'd tip a guide is if I felt safe the whole time and well informed. Your guide would have been short a tip.
But I'm sure he was half your age and felt he knew twice as much. His awareness must have been something else.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 29, 2009, 5:35 PM
Post #24 of 33
(14900 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
onrockandice wrote: * In one short day of climbing you can in no way measure someone's awareness. If Dingus was your belay and on *that* day there was 9 blondes in a conga line next to you Dingus would be fully unaware. You'd have no accidents but you'd also have no measure of his awareness. (I'm only quoting Dingus here.)
Oh I'd be AWARE. I assure you. Hyper-aware.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Dec 29, 2009, 5:58 PM
Post #25 of 33
(14877 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
Yes but when someone shouted, "Take!" I'd really love to see your interpretation of the :cough: command. 
EDIT: Crap! Just realized this was accident/injury. Mods! Sorry for taking it this direction. If you scrub it I'm sorry you had to. I won't take my comments any further. I had replied using a thin client that doesn't tell me which forum I'm in.
(This post was edited by onrockandice on Dec 29, 2009, 6:00 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
