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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 2, 2010, 8:45 PM
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WheresTheFire wrote: I recently started leading sport, and I'm afraid to take a fall; and in turn this means I can't climb at my ability level. I haven't taken a lead fall yet, but I've been told it's the best way to get over the fear of leading. Any thoughts or advice?
you don't have to fall to climb.
lots of routes you shouldn't fall.
probably these you won't be climbing.
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curt
Jan 2, 2010, 9:07 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: Oh save it, old man with a stick up ur arse. You get over leading jitters pretty fast, if you want to. And you can't compute what grade someone is climbing at until it's down to skill and not jitters. Just because I said they weren't a 5.8 climber doesn't make them a 12c climber with potential. It makes their level indeterminate. Now go pick fights with the newbs in beginners mkay?
Looks like he's already found a fight with a n00b.
Curt
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milesenoell
Jan 2, 2010, 9:17 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: So because I'm a female who stands by her opinion, I'm either pms-ing or I hate men right?
Since I was the one who tossed out the deliberately inflammatory post I at least want credit for it.
But moving on, no it is not because you are a female who stands by your opinion that I took a shot at your post. The fact that you brought gender into the equation and used a blanket generalization was entirely your own doing, and is why I chose to turn it around. More important in my own mind is that you made a weak argument and then backed away from trying to either clarify or expand upon it. I also took issue with the characterization that challenging your view constituted pointless argument since discussion of differing views is, in my eyes, a frequently worthwhile and potentially productive feature of online forums. The value tends to be undermined by emotional reactions from those who have no interest in anything beyond spraying their own opinions. I hope that you can recognize that I am not criticizing you personally, but am very certainly criticizing the candor of your earlier post.
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milesenoell
Jan 2, 2010, 9:30 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: Dingus...It was Bill who accused me of PMS-ing. So I was directing that at him. I prefer to be treated like an equal. After all, no one offers Jay a tampon when he goes off like he does.
Not to beat this to death, but I am treating you like an equal and how I would hope to be treated myself. Frankly being called on one's own shit is not a bad thing. It may sting bit, but I'd much rather be called for my shit than make an ass of myself indefinitely until I happen to figure it out on my own. Real friends do that for each other.
Gender offers up highly charged handles by which we can get more leverage than is available to virtual strangers through most other means. I grabbed one in response to your offering it up. Unlike dingus I suppose, I have gotten sick of this bullshit angle that modern feminism has led to where you can attack gender based notions from this safe high ground based on the assumption that even in the absence of any evidence that I would have used your gender in the deplorable ways that feminism sought to combat. I am all for equality, but this tit for tat concept is ridiculous. You want to emulate a mirror image of the actions of out of line male chauvinists? Go for it, but don't expect me to cheer. It's still weak and out of line. I'd rather move to a place where arguments can be weighed as independently as possible from those who present them. Let a persons credentials be considered when judging the validity of an opinion you don't share, but gender is not a credential or qualification for anything I care about and certainly had no place in this discussion until you raised the issue.
My only apology is that I used snark to respond.
And as for Jay, people take the easiest handle he makes available to slam him: he's a sport climber. Although I think that basically all the people who try to target him for that are aware that a climber in the game for as long as he has been and climbing at the level he does has all the skill necessary to garner respect from other climbers, regardless of their preferred style. It's just what's out there to grab.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Jan 2, 2010, 9:37 PM)
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 9:32 PM
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So since I did it first, it's okay if you do it too? Basically I lead the argument and you are toproping it.
milesenoell wrote: karmiclimber wrote: So because I'm a female who stands by her opinion, I'm either pms-ing or I hate men right? Since I was the one who tossed out the deliberately inflammatory post I at least want credit for it. But moving on, no it is not because you are a female who stands by your opinion that I took a shot at your post. The fact that you brought gender into the equation and used a blanket generalization was entirely your own doing, and is why I chose to turn it around. More important in my own mind is that you made a weak argument and then backed away from trying to either clarify or expand upon it. I also took issue with the characterization that challenging your view constituted pointless argument since discussion of differing views is, in my eyes, a frequently worthwhile and potentially productive feature of online forums. The value tends to be undermined by emotional reactions from those who have no interest in anything beyond spraying their own opinions. I hope that you can recognize that I am not criticizing you personally, but am very certainly criticizing the candor of your earlier post. |
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 9:40 PM
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This isn't about chauvanism or feminism. It's about climbing. I don't care if you blame it on me needing my midol. You would probably think I needed an IV drip of midol if you knew me in real life. But it's because I'm opinionated and firey about it, not pmsing.
And if I was stooping to your level I would have mentioned that your need to be right is directly related to insecurity about your manhood. But I didn't.
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milesenoell
Jan 2, 2010, 9:41 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: So since I did it first, it's okay if you do it too? Basically I lead the argument and you are toproping it. milesenoell wrote: karmiclimber wrote: So because I'm a female who stands by her opinion, I'm either pms-ing or I hate men right? Since I was the one who tossed out the deliberately inflammatory post I at least want credit for it. But moving on, no it is not because you are a female who stands by your opinion that I took a shot at your post. The fact that you brought gender into the equation and used a blanket generalization was entirely your own doing, and is why I chose to turn it around. More important in my own mind is that you made a weak argument and then backed away from trying to either clarify or expand upon it. I also took issue with the characterization that challenging your view constituted pointless argument since discussion of differing views is, in my eyes, a frequently worthwhile and potentially productive feature of online forums. The value tends to be undermined by emotional reactions from those who have no interest in anything beyond spraying their own opinions. I hope that you can recognize that I am not criticizing you personally, but am very certainly criticizing the candor of your earlier post.
While turnabout is certainly fair play, no it wasn't all right and I alluded to that with my second post. However, since I had something of value to say I went on to say it, hopefully diffusing some of the emotional reaction I expected from such an inflammatory post. You on the other hand did not appear to have anything more to say, and your post could only stand on weak gender plays and a blanket generalization.
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 9:44 PM
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We can truce. I'm not pissed. I'll read through the post later- it's a little stilted for what I'm used to, but I'm sure it has worthwhile points
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milesenoell
Jan 2, 2010, 9:47 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: This isn't about chauvanism or feminism. It's about climbing.
It was until you brought up gender and you've been on RC.com long enough to know that that is an issue that dingus will play ridiculously nice on. Making your jab at him would never have gotten you this response, and frankly if you hadn't thrown out a the generalization I probably wouldn't have bitten either. Your brand of feminist indignation is based on a poorly examined foundation. I invite you to examine it.
I have no problem with firey people, but I do have a problem with people who start discussions they aren't prepared to proceed with.
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 9:54 PM
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You just said you were trying to diffuse the situation. And now you are asking me to proceed. I couldn't have guessed Dingus's response- I don't stalk his posts and I thought Dingus was Bill (see posts on pg 3).
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jakedatc
Jan 2, 2010, 10:22 PM
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You brought Men vs whoever into this... just sayin'
In reply to: Same for the rest of you men who can never be wrong
back to calling dingus old and wooing bill...
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sycamore
Jan 2, 2010, 10:30 PM
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I have a pretty experienced friend who RP's into the low 12's, but is often totally shut down by his unwillingness to take falls. We're about the same, strength-wise, but he only onsights low 10s. It only bothers me when he talks about wanting to "crush some 12's", yet we get to the crag and it's all "take, take, take". Point being, it's not just a beginner thing. The risk (or perceived risk) is just not worth it for some people. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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Potts875
Jan 2, 2010, 10:44 PM
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billl7 wrote: karmiclimber wrote: I didn't. It was this person: I see. Right now it appears to have been Potts875. Regardless, my bad (note: I am not by default against resurrecting old threads). Bill L
LMAO...Sorry! New to the forum and I'm just reading everything on here.
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dugl33
Jan 2, 2010, 10:48 PM
Post #91 of 102
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WheresTheFire wrote: I recently started leading sport, and I'm afraid to take a fall; and in turn this means I can't climb at my ability level. I haven't taken a lead fall yet, but I've been told it's the best way to get over the fear of leading. Any thoughts or advice?
 This thread is awesome...
Climbing is a blend of mental, technical, and physical abilities. Recognizing a shortcoming in any of these areas can allow focus and improvement with regards to that area.
A few thoughts. If you can find both a safe venue to practice falls, and an experienced belayer (someone who won't short rope you and sprain your ankles, for example), a few deliberate falls will take away some of the fear of the unknown. It may not eliminate it though. Early in my climbing, my partner threw me on lead on a few routes. My first fall, caused by overreaching for a clip on a slab, resulted in a fall so completely unexpected there was simply no time to be afraid.
The fact that I had fallen and survived didn't "cure" all fear of falling though. Its much scarier when you are off-balance, twisted up, fading out, whatever it is and you anticipate a fall coming. That fear of the unknown is back because each fall is unique.
Bungled up with a fear of falling, not wanting to commit to hard moves I actually backed off and lead some easier climbs for a while, and the payback was I felt so comfortable I was able to keep this mental state and climb closer to my technical / physical limits. Part of the challenge for me was many of the places I climbed the easier climbs were actually quite dangerous. It was necessary to get technically and physically competent enough to get on harder and ironically much safer routes before falling was much of an option.
If you are like most people you will have to overcome this more than once. You'll get comfortable on sport falls for example, but perhaps not trust your trad gear sets enough to fall on them, and you'll need to work though it again.
As you get more seasoned with it, you will develop an ability to evaluate risk, knowing if you can safely push your technical-physical limits into the fall potential zone. Falling isn't something to take lightly in a blanket sense, but rather on a case by case basis.
Final food for thought. Get in a pre-flight ritual before leaving the ground. Check you're doubled back, verify your knot. Check your belayer. The more you implicitly trust all the elements in the system (since you checked them ahead of time) the more you'll be free of nagging little worries as you climb. You may even find yourself at your physical-technical limit before fear short-circuits your resolve and absolute commitment. And then you'll have to decide if you really fell or simply let go to get it over with.
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 11:04 PM
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Yeah but it was descriptive. Besides, no one can argue that this forum is anything more than a bunch of "you're wrong" and "I'm rights".
I just ate at panera and omg I'm full. I think I'll be a 5.9 climber with 5.12 possibilities at the gym tonight.
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newcat
Jan 2, 2010, 11:12 PM
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Hey, as a new leader with (more than a few) jitters, I'm also enjoying the thread. In my case, the normal jitters were compounded by taking a nasty fall on lead a couple of weeks after getting certified. It was a clean fall (no rope behind my foot or anything), but I ended up somehow managing to hit my head against a hand hold on the way down (I can't figure out how) and got a concussion. Anyway, since then, I've been gotten really really shaky. I'll lead stuff where I'm pretty certain I won't fall, but I prefer concentrating on my technique in TR -- and also pushing myself. I'm hoping this year to get some confidence back and start leading again, but one bad experience makes it tougher. I re-did fall training, but it's tricky to make fear go away once it sets in.
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dugl33
Jan 3, 2010, 12:04 AM
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This thread for some reason has reminded me of a climb in the Pinnacles National Monument called Shake 'N Bake. Years ago I lead the crux center pitch which consists of 5.10 climbing, sustained at 5.9 with 5.10 cruxes, and 30+ foot run-outs again and again between bolts. Its up on a vertical headwall pulling up on little knobs. Good rock by Pinnacles standards, but volcanic breccia just the same. I remember scanning the horizon for bolts, usually not seeing one until my feet were a good 15 feet above the previous bolt. Finally getting to a bolt, I would have to control my shaking as I carefully clipped. No grabbing the draw or any such b.s., either. Finally getting down from that climb (3 pitches) I really felt like a bad-ass. It was pretty close to my technical ability, and mentally... well...for me it was quite the accomplishment.
So, a month or two later, I went back with another buddy. I wanted the first and third pitch as I had already lead the center. My partner lead off from the first hanging belay up the center pitch and clipped the first bolt. He then continued up and proceed to miss both the second and third bolts. Looking up I could have sworn he was run out nearly a hundred feet at one point, and was calculating whether he was going to deck if he came off, as the first hanging belay was only 80 feet up.
When I finally joined him at the next station, I asked him what had happened. "I couldn't find the bolts."
"Dude, you were sooo run out. I think you probably would have decked."
"I felt pretty comfortable" came the response.
Some people are just wired a little different, I guess. This partner had taken more than a few falls in his day, broken both feet, and one wrist. Yet somehow... somehow...
Sometimes, belaying can be just as scary as climbing. Sometimes...
 ::ptsd fetal position, rocking back and forth::
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USnavy
Jan 3, 2010, 11:48 AM
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karmiclimber wrote: dingus wrote: WheresTheFire wrote: I recently started leading sport, and I'm afraid to take a fall; and in turn this means I can't climb at my ability level. I haven't taken a lead fall yet, but I've been told it's the best way to get over the fear of leading. Any thoughts or advice? Yes - you ARE climbing at your ability level. Cheers DMT No, he's not. I do this all of the time. You climb waaay below your ability so there isn't a chance you can fall. For example, maybe you can send that 10 but you take the 8 because you KNOW you can't fall on an 8. Make sense? I have elvis-legged myself off a 10 from nervousness of falling. You can't compute what grade a new leader is climbing at until they are actually attempting the highest grade they can climb without falling.
There are two types of abilities in lead climbing. The first is the climber's physical ability and the second is the climber's mental ability. Their physical ability pertains to the hardest grade they are physically capable of climbing. Their mental ability refers to the hardest difficulty they can lead without becoming overly distracted by fear. Most consider a climber's "overall" ability to be the lower of those two abilities. Someone new to lead climbing will always have a lower mental ability then physical ability. Through practice, falls, and new experiences the gap between the two abilities will start to narrow. The ultimate goal is to completely eliminate the gap between the two so only the climber's ability to climb the grade is holding them back. However the job is not done once the gap is eliminated. Keeping that gap closed requires continuing sustained effort. If the climber stops their normal leading regiment they may find themselves back to the drawing board with a larger gap once they start the previously normal leading regiment again.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 3, 2010, 11:51 AM)
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karmiclimber
Jan 3, 2010, 6:55 PM
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Yeah especially when Icebreaker baselayers are on clearance. I got me a wool top for 15 bucks yesterday!!!
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sycamore
Jan 3, 2010, 7:19 PM
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-Regime
-Regimen
-Regiment
And here I was thinking these words had different meanings. Thanks RC.com!
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 7, 2010, 12:50 AM
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cush wrote: you guys would really flip that much of a shit about it? it was kinda scary at the time but afterward i was laughing my ass off.
Then you probably deserved it.
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tehbillzor
Feb 7, 2010, 3:29 AM
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Falling is my favorite part of leading. When i first started i was also afraid, but now i love it.
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ClimbTheCrag
Mar 3, 2010, 8:28 PM
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Me and my friend were scared to fall, so we found a tree with a good overhang and few branches, and set up some quickdraws tied around the tree and one of us would climb while the other belayed, and we would just let go and fall, after taking a 16ft fall half a dozen times I over came the basic fear of falling.
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