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jacobbelsher
Apr 9, 2010, 8:36 PM
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hi guys.
I'm wondering what to look for in a drill. gas, electric, whatever. I'm completely ignorant about this stuff, so your remarks can be as general or specific as you like.
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jacobbelsher
Apr 10, 2010, 12:03 AM
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bosch or hilti, thanks clc
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jacobbelsher
Apr 10, 2010, 3:58 AM
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guangzhou wrote: jacobbelsher wrote: bosch or hilti, thanks clc Gas or battery, depends on where you climb and how much bolting you're doing. Personally, I prefer Battery. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/6/114086-largest_52297.jpg[/image]
please tell me more...
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billcoe_
Apr 10, 2010, 4:35 PM
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jacobbelsher wrote: please tell me more...
Id rather see more from you first....like how long you've been climbing, how many routes you have helped put up, where you climb, what kind of rock is there....how far of a hike in is it.
See, what we often see, is young guys who graduate from a gym to the out doors, who see a bit of rock that doesn't have bolts in it because it has been climbed already with out them. They show up and stick in some bolts and it gets ugly.
So what about you? Tell us about yourself.
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USnavy
Apr 10, 2010, 5:11 PM
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jacobbelsher wrote: hi guys. I'm wondering what to look for in a drill. gas, electric, whatever. I'm completely ignorant about this stuff, so your remarks can be as general or specific as you like.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 10, 2010, 5:12 PM)
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villageidiot
Apr 10, 2010, 5:53 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: See, what we often see, is young guys who graduate from a gym to the out doors, who see a bit of rock that doesn't have bolts in it because it has been climbed already with out them. They show up and stick in some bolts and it gets ugly.
That's odd. All the controversial routes that have been bolted lately around Boulder lately have been bolted by old men. I somewhat doubt most gym climbers decide to drop the money on a drill as soon as they decide to climb outdoors.
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jbro_135
Apr 10, 2010, 11:54 PM
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Don't listen to the haters man, get a Ryobi gas-powered drill and BTSU (bolt that shit up) MAKE IS SAFE BRO
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billcoe_
Apr 11, 2010, 7:00 PM
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villageidiot wrote: That's odd. All the controversial routes that have been bolted lately around Boulder lately have been bolted by old men. I somewhat doubt most gym climbers decide to drop the money on a drill as soon as they decide to climb outdoors.
Well that too VI. I didn't want to come off as insulting anyone but I don't want to be enabling someone doing I think is wrong either. However, that was essentially only part of my question I'd like a response on.
For instance, I don't know what the Original Poster is really referring too or thinking, but around here to give yo a few notable options, there is a remote backcountry cliff that is a steep 3+ mile walk to get too, where you are predominantly on hard rock doing amazing crack climbing and may only need 2 bolts to get off when you discover that it was a brand new, never climbed crack route you chose to climb, and just got stranded on 300' off the deck on a tiny ledge when the crack ended 5 ' below your ledge which isn't even near the top off that looked oh so close when you were back on terra firma thinking of this line. Then there is crackless faces of soft rock pinnacles where you have to mandatory ground up a route as you can't rap off a pinnacle, but you want a power drill so as to get in the larger bolts needed for safety. Maybe dude will be rap bolting many, many lines on a new cliff? If so, whats the approach like, can you carry weight? There are also local cliffs with established routes and hard rock where he might only want to replace a single old rusty bolt anchor or 2. And then there is also Smith rock where he might be eyeing only a single route steep-assed 5.15 line. We don't know. They are all different things where optimally, different tools might be utilized.
I have different drills for different things if you can imagine. For instance, I have an old friend who will be borrowing my A5 Hurricane Handrill next month to do a ground up FA in Toulome. See, you can saw down the backside of a regular bit to have an uber shorty custom length 3/8 bit for steep granite slabs. Makes a huge difference for that kind of climbing and is a better solution than a Petzl Rockpec handdrill, which must use an SDS (or SDS Plus) chucked bit, and which can't be cut off at all. Power drills aren't even allowed down there, so one handdrill is better than another in that example. See how that works?
So where does the fella climb, what kind of rock, what kind of routes, etc etc etc? These are valid questions. How can anyone accurately answer the guy unless you know some of this. These questions are all germaine to the discussion, including dudes skill level and mindset IMO. Why should we work our asses off for a total stranger if the guy can't even simply open himself up for us just a tad? For me, it's a 2 way street here and fair is fair? I might not even want to answer depending on the guys response to my query.
Again, don't mean to insult anyone, hope it's not taken that way, but I am curious as too the answers.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Apr 12, 2010, 1:43 AM)
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guangzhou
Apr 12, 2010, 1:30 AM
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USnavy wrote: jacobbelsher wrote: hi guys. I'm wondering what to look for in a drill. gas, electric, whatever. I'm completely ignorant about this stuff, so your remarks can be as general or specific as you like. Good for you, do some research before you buy. Gas drills will get you more holes, but they are almost impossible to bolt on lead with. Personally, I prefer battery. Bosh and HIlti are at the top of the list. In reply to: The first thing you need to do is get with an experienced bolter for a few months and have him show you how to bolt. A few months, yikes. I have taught several people to bolt. Most of them spent an afternoon with me and were on there own after that. It's really not that hard of you know the ins and out of climbing. In reply to: Bolting may seem simple, drill a hole, put the bolt in, tighten the bolt, but its much more complicated then that. It may be that simple when dealing with uncracked concrete but with rock you have to look out for many hazards. Actually, it is that simple. In reply to: Many climbers have been killed from bolt failures because an inexperienced bolter placed the wrong type of bolt on a line or placed the right type of bolt in the wrong area. In my experience, new bolters are much more careful wtih bolting than experienced bolters. Sort of like drivers, the longer you drive, the more comfortable you become with the process. Both make mistakes. In reply to: It may seem easy to learn on the way but a single wrong placement (and its not hard to jack up a bolt placement) and someone could die, no joke. Again, it's not as hard as people think or make it. If you lead regularly, you can handle bolt placements. Clip stances and clean falls.
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USnavy
Apr 12, 2010, 9:22 PM
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USnavy wrote: jacobbelsher wrote: hi guys. I'm wondering what to look for in a drill. gas, electric, whatever. I'm completely ignorant about this stuff, so your remarks can be as general or specific as you like. Good for you, do some research before you buy. Gas drills will get you more holes, but they are almost impossible to bolt on lead with. Personally, I prefer battery. Bosh and HIlti are at the top of the list. In reply to: The first thing you need to do is get with an experienced bolter for a few months and have him show you how to bolt. A few months, yikes. I have taught several people to bolt. Most of them spent an afternoon with me and were on there own after that. It's really not that hard of you know the ins and out of climbing. In reply to: Bolting may seem simple, drill a hole, put the bolt in, tighten the bolt, but its much more complicated then that. It may be that simple when dealing with uncracked concrete but with rock you have to look out for many hazards. Actually, it is that simple. In reply to: Many climbers have been killed from bolt failures because an inexperienced bolter placed the wrong type of bolt on a line or placed the right type of bolt in the wrong area. In my experience, new bolters are much more careful wtih bolting than experienced bolters. Sort of like drivers, the longer you drive, the more comfortable you become with the process. Both make mistakes. In reply to: It may seem easy to learn on the way but a single wrong placement (and its not hard to jack up a bolt placement) and someone could die, no joke. Again, it's not as hard as people think or make it. If you lead regularly, you can handle bolt placements. Clip stances and clean falls.
It depends on what you are bolting. If you’re bolting a solid granite slab, sure it’s easy. But here the rock is highly fragmented and there are small hairline cracks everywhere splitting the rock into thousands of pieces throughout the cliff. So here bolting is technically demanding and its time consuming to figure out how place the bolt where you can offer good clipping stances and avoid putting the bolt next to a crack or in a block of rock that looks to be held in only by friction. Not to mention we place glue ins so there are even more things that can go wrong if you don't know what you’re doing.
Now that’s only about the bolting process. Then there are the bolts. Can you tell the difference between a Home Depot stud bolt and a Power-Stud? Well if you fall on it you may... To the inexperienced, they look the same so they may ask, "why pay 4x the price for the Power-Bolt when this one will do just fine?” I have definitely heard that question before. Does someone new to bolting know how to properly install a Power-Bolt? If you don’t clean the hole right or set the hanger right, they can become a spinner really quickly. If you under tighten them, they may pull, if you over tighten them they can fail.
Then there is the issue of mixing SS hangers with plated steel bolts, definitely seen that a lot, I wonder how many of those were placed by highly experienced bolters (probably almost none)? What about marine environments? What happens if you use grade 304 SS? What about 316? SS deteriorates and can fail with time if it comes into contact with salt. How do you know what bolt is best suited for your crag? What happens if you place a stud style bolt in sandstone? People have paid with their lives to answer that question. What happens if you place a bolt right next to a small feature sticking out of the rock that may seem to be "too small to matter"? I have some pictures of some broken quickdraws that will answer that question for you. I could go on for pages. Getting my drift?
I cant even count how many bolts I have clipped that were installed incorrectly or in a poor position. Bolting is a very serious job and must never be taken lightly. A single error in judgment and you could cost someone their life. Simply put, bolting is not for the inexperienced, PERIOD.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 12, 2010, 9:43 PM)
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guangzhou
Apr 13, 2010, 1:06 AM
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USnavy wrote: USnavy wrote: jacobbelsher wrote: hi guys. I'm wondering what to look for in a drill. gas, electric, whatever. I'm completely ignorant about this stuff, so your remarks can be as general or specific as you like. Good for you, do some research before you buy. Gas drills will get you more holes, but they are almost impossible to bolt on lead with. Personally, I prefer battery. Bosh and HIlti are at the top of the list. In reply to: The first thing you need to do is get with an experienced bolter for a few months and have him show you how to bolt. A few months, yikes. I have taught several people to bolt. Most of them spent an afternoon with me and were on there own after that. It's really not that hard of you know the ins and out of climbing. In reply to: Bolting may seem simple, drill a hole, put the bolt in, tighten the bolt, but its much more complicated then that. It may be that simple when dealing with uncracked concrete but with rock you have to look out for many hazards. Actually, it is that simple. In reply to: Many climbers have been killed from bolt failures because an inexperienced bolter placed the wrong type of bolt on a line or placed the right type of bolt in the wrong area. In my experience, new bolters are much more careful wtih bolting than experienced bolters. Sort of like drivers, the longer you drive, the more comfortable you become with the process. Both make mistakes. In reply to: It may seem easy to learn on the way but a single wrong placement (and its not hard to jack up a bolt placement) and someone could die, no joke. Again, it's not as hard as people think or make it. If you lead regularly, you can handle bolt placements. Clip stances and clean falls. It depends on what you are bolting. If you’re bolting a solid granite slab, sure it’s easy. But here the rock is highly fragmented and there are small hairline cracks everywhere splitting the rock into thousands of pieces throughout the cliff. So here bolting is technically demanding and its time consuming to figure out how place the bolt where you can offer good clipping stances and avoid putting the bolt next to a crack or in a block of rock that looks to be held in only by friction. Not to mention we place glue ins so there are even more things that can go wrong if you don't know what you’re doing.
Even bolting on bad rock, soft rock, or the such doesn't require you to follow a more experienced bolter for months to learn.
In reply to: Now that’s only about the bolting process. Then there are the bolts. Can you tell the difference between a Home Depot stud bolt and a Power-Stud? Well if you fall on it you may... To the inexperienced, they look the same so they may ask, "why pay 4x the price for the Power-Bolt when this one will do just fine?” I have definitely heard that question before. Does someone new to bolting know how to properly install a Power-Bolt? If you don’t clean the hole right or set the hanger right, they can become a spinner really quickly. If you under tighten them, they may pull, if you over tighten them they can fail.
Again, non of this takes months to learn. All important, but can all be covered in a afternoon with a serious climber who is actually interested.
In reply to: Then there is the issue of mixing SS hangers with plated steel bolts, definitely seen that a lot, I wonder how many of those were placed by highly experienced bolters (probably almost none)? What about marine environments? What happens if you use grade 304 SS? What about 316? SS deteriorates and can fail with time if it comes into contact with salt. How do you know what bolt is best suited for your crag? What happens if you place a stud style bolt in sandstone? People have paid with their lives to answer that question. What happens if you place a bolt right next to a small feature sticking out of the rock that may seem to be "too small to matter"? I have some pictures of some broken quickdraws that will answer that question for you. I could go on for pages. Getting my drift?
Yes, you could go on for pages and pages. In all honesty, so can I, but someone learning to bolt normally focuses on a specific crag in a specific region. Again, all this can be covered in a afternoon.
I learned to bolt at Foster Falls. A guy was adding an anchor to route and he invited me along. He placed the first bolt, I placed the second under his supervision. Not very hard.
About eight years later, a local taught me to use Glue in anchors on the sea cliffs of Okinawa. Again, we looked over the side of the cliff, decided the line would go. We slung a few rock, rapped in a bolted on our way down. We used Glue in, so we couldn't climb the route that day, but the following weekend, we jumped on. The route went after just two tires.
We didn't top-rope, practice, or mark where bolts should go. We rapped in, we looked at stances and fall penitential, then placed the bolts. He placed the first couple, and watch me place the rest. My lesson was complete.
Again, someone serious about bolting can learn how in a couple of hours with someone else.
I agree, every area is unique and has it's own bolting issues. Limestone in Southern China was very different from he limestone I bolted in Japan, and doesn't resemble any of the limestone I am playing on in Indonesia.
Bottom line, bolting is serious, but it's not difficult to learn.
I cant even count how many bolts I have clipped that were installed incorrectly or in a poor position. Bolting is a very serious job and must never be taken lightly. A single error in judgment and you could cost someone their life. Simply put, bolting is not for the inexperienced, PERIOD.
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jacobbelsher
Apr 13, 2010, 5:49 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: jacobbelsher wrote: please tell me more... Id rather see more from you first....like how long you've been climbing, how many routes you have helped put up, where you climb, what kind of rock is there....how far of a hike in is it. See, what we often see, is young guys who graduate from a gym to the out doors, who see a bit of rock that doesn't have bolts in it because it has been climbed already with out them. They show up and stick in some bolts and it gets ugly. So what about you? Tell us about yourself.
hey billcoe. eat a dick. my dick.
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jacobbelsher
Apr 13, 2010, 5:54 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: jacobbelsher wrote: please tell me more... Id rather see more from you first....like how long you've been climbing, how many routes you have helped put up, where you climb, what kind of rock is there....how far of a hike in is it. See, what we often see, is young guys who graduate from a gym to the out doors, who see a bit of rock that doesn't have bolts in it because it has been climbed already with out them. They show up and stick in some bolts and it gets ugly. So what about you? Tell us about yourself.
afterwards, you could teach me how to get up those hard tens, "trad" climbs...thats when you use those squishy springy things that go in the cracks, right?
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jacobbelsher
Apr 13, 2010, 5:05 PM
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ahhhh, yes, I see now. the Mazamas. keepers and defenders of all climbing knowledge. only the worthy are admitted...and the out of shape, middle-aged professional.
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adatesman
Apr 14, 2010, 3:18 PM
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fenderfour
Apr 14, 2010, 3:37 PM
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This is a strange concept - other people may know more than you. They -might- have placed a few bolts, or established a "few" lines, or climbed harder than you.
True, it doesn't take much time to learn to place a bolt. It takes a long time to learn how to establish a worth while climb. It also takes a little time to understand the land management issues. Bolting without permission in some areas can get the entire crag shut down. No one wants that.
But hey, this is the internet, right? it is well within your rights to be an ignorant prick. Just don't expect anyone else to care.
jacobbelsher wrote: billcoe_ wrote: jacobbelsher wrote: please tell me more... Id rather see more from you first....like how long you've been climbing, how many routes you have helped put up, where you climb, what kind of rock is there....how far of a hike in is it. See, what we often see, is young guys who graduate from a gym to the out doors, who see a bit of rock that doesn't have bolts in it because it has been climbed already with out them. They show up and stick in some bolts and it gets ugly. So what about you? Tell us about yourself. hey billcoe. eat a dick. my dick. |
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Davey
Jun 6, 2010, 11:30 PM
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Didn't the guy just ask for advice on buying a drill not will everyone tell me if I'm accepted to bolting school! lets start a new thread called "Judge and bash this guy for asking a question" if you don't want to answer his question.
As for the drill I really like the Bosch they have the lightweight battery's dialed in.
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guangzhou
Jun 7, 2010, 1:20 AM
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I owned Bosh and I've used Hilti too. Both are excellent, go with the one you find the best deal on.
Eman
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fenderfour
Jun 7, 2010, 3:02 PM
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Davey wrote: Didn't the guy just ask for advice on buying a drill not will everyone tell me if I'm accepted to bolting school! lets start a new thread called "Judge and bash this guy for asking a question" if you don't want to answer his question. As for the drill I really like the Bosch they have the lightweight battery's dialed in.
It's never that simple. He wants to buy a drill so that he can bolt climbs. This can lead to crappy or even unsafe routes being established. It can also lead to access issues with land managers.
But hey, maybe he just wants to own a $500 paperweight. No worries.
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angry
Jun 7, 2010, 3:07 PM
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fenderfour wrote: Davey wrote: Didn't the guy just ask for advice on buying a drill not will everyone tell me if I'm accepted to bolting school! lets start a new thread called "Judge and bash this guy for asking a question" if you don't want to answer his question. As for the drill I really like the Bosch they have the lightweight battery's dialed in. It's never that simple. He wants to buy a drill so that he can bolt climbs. This can lead to crappy or even unsafe routes being established. It can also lead to access issues with land managers. But hey, maybe he just wants to own a $500 paperweight. No worries.
Exactly.
By the time I was ready to buy a power drill, I'd hand drilled many dozens of holes in many types of rocks and used 4 different power drills from friends. I didn't need to ask online because I'd learned from real live people.
I'm very happy with my drill purchase. I also know it's not a drill, it's a rotary hammer.
Too much in this post is making me believe that it's way to soon for this guy to get juiced. Everyone's first route really needs to be done by hand. Maybe your first several. It puts these things into perspective.
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the_climber
Jun 7, 2010, 4:00 PM
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angry wrote: fenderfour wrote: Davey wrote: Didn't the guy just ask for advice on buying a drill not will everyone tell me if I'm accepted to bolting school! lets start a new thread called "Judge and bash this guy for asking a question" if you don't want to answer his question. As for the drill I really like the Bosch they have the lightweight battery's dialed in. It's never that simple. He wants to buy a drill so that he can bolt climbs. This can lead to crappy or even unsafe routes being established. It can also lead to access issues with land managers. But hey, maybe he just wants to own a $500 paperweight. No worries. Exactly. By the time I was ready to buy a power drill, I'd hand drilled many dozens of holes in many types of rocks and used 4 different power drills from friends. I didn't need to ask online because I'd learned from real live people. I'm very happy with my drill purchase. I also know it's not a drill, it's a rotary hammer. Too much in this post is making me believe that it's way to soon for this guy to get juiced. Everyone's first route really needs to be done by hand. Maybe your first several. It puts these things into perspective.
Agreed.
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rtwilli4
Jun 7, 2010, 4:26 PM
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I stopped reading about 10 posts up because people were arguing over ethics... and doing that on the internet is stupid.
It depends...
First choice is battery or gas. If you are bolting somewhere remote, without good electric, or long lines, then gas is the way to go. Otherwise you have to lug 3 or 4 batteries around to get anything done... not to mention that a battery drill plus 4 batteries costs the same as a gas drill.
Ryobi makes (used to make) the best gas drill hands down. It drills a 12mm hole about6 in deep in 30 seconds in hard limestone.
Bosch and Hilti are the companies that make the best drills now. I've never used a gas powered Bosch or Hilti, but I have used a Bosch Hammer 24volt and a Hilti 36 volt and like them both. Power, size of battery, how many holes you want per battery, these are the things to think about when decided on a battery drill. I personally love the drills that have a place to attach a handle... give you much better leverage.
Another thing to think bout is if you are bolting on lead or not. The weight of the drill varies a lot!
Finally, drilling on steep rock, overhangs, roofs, etc really does a number on your rotator cuff. I can't drill more than a few holes over my head, even with a very light drill. Some guys can go all day, but it messes w/ my shoulder.
So... it just depends. In Thailand we use whatever we have. Now what I have is a Bosch hooked up to two motorcycle batteries. Sucks to haul but drills good. We even try to find LONG extension cords so that we can just plug right into the bar on the beach, but then they ask us to pay for the electric.
If you can find a Ryobi, buy it.
As for the arguing... I'll just say that if you bolt something that can be protected with trad. gear... you suck!
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