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hafilax
Apr 12, 2010, 8:03 PM
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The beauty of climbing is that there are very few repeated movements. You can't train for every move you will need. There are movements that are more common than others and having a solid base is necessary but I believe that a good climber really needs to be able to tackle the problem that's in front of her. There was a pretty strong climber who posted a great statement in one of these technique threads about training for the moves he doesn't know he'll need. The oft repeated moves get trained on every climb whereas that weird crux move may need something entirely different from anything you've ever done before.
If you don't know how to kip a pullup or campus move then you're really missing out on a useful skill. The Moon-kick is a good example of using momentum generated from a free leg. In my crossfit gym I am one of the relatively few that can do a muscle up on the rings. There are plenty that are stronger than me doing way more pullups and dips but I have the skill to kip into it. Like a mantle top-out, all that matters is getting to the top; save the elegance for Olympic gymnastics.
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k.l.k
Apr 12, 2010, 8:06 PM
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hafilax wrote: In my crossfit gym I am one of the relatively few that can do a muscle up on the rings. There are plenty that are stronger than me doing way more pullups and dips but I have the skill to kip into it.
This tells me two things:
Your gym is filled with weak, uncoordinated people.
And you can't do a muscle-up on the rings.
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hafilax
Apr 12, 2010, 8:16 PM
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k.l.k wrote: hafilax wrote: In my crossfit gym I am one of the relatively few that can do a muscle up on the rings. There are plenty that are stronger than me doing way more pullups and dips but I have the skill to kip into it. This tells me two things: Your gym is filled with weak, uncoordinated people. And you can't do a muscle-up on the rings.
Kipping is a step in the progression to the strict muscle up. Why are you so against kipping?
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suprasoup
Apr 12, 2010, 9:54 PM
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angry wrote: In your opinion is the time you're spending on the boards helping you send harder or just spray harder? I realize you have sent a full number grade than me, I'm wondering if you think that power is why.
I'm predominately a Boulderer. Afaik you're mainly a TradMaster. Our skill sets, while overlapping in some areas, are different. The strength, power and technique (yes, technique) gains from campusing are applicable to my style of climbing. That's why I do it. So, for your first question and in my case, the answer is yes.
The second question is a bit tougher. You've already made mention of the fact that it takes a multitude of things in order to climb 5.14 and I agree with you. As to why I climb a full grade harder, I imagine it's the same, it'd be a multitude of things not strictly power. Granted this is for Sport, I believe that you climb Trad at a higher level than I do.
An example of where all that campus training was useful was on my recent RP of the Event Horizon(5.14a/b). The second crux (V9/V10) is either a full on dead point (where my throwing arm is fully extended and my other arm is locked off at my knee) or a desperate dyno from a very sh tty 2 finger sloper to a very shtty finger and a half sloper. Having that kind of lock off strength paid dividends. Were there others ways of doing the move? Perhaps, but the only other guy that has sent it did it the same way but he also has a foot and a half wingspan over me.
(This post was edited by suprasoup on Apr 12, 2010, 9:55 PM)
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devincampbell
Apr 13, 2010, 9:54 AM
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Hey!!! It is useful statistics for the internet world nowadays as well for future, Thread provides quite informative descriptive article.. I come to read eligible various post on this topic stuff.
Thanks & Regards
Devin Campbell
datarecoverysoftware.com
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johnwesely
Apr 13, 2010, 12:46 PM
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devincampbell wrote: Hey!!! It is useful statistics for the internet world nowadays as well for future, Thread provides quite informative descriptive article.. I come to read eligible various post on this topic stuff. Thanks & Regards Devin Campbell datarecoverysoftware.com
For some reason, I think it is funny that he replied to Jay.
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sp00ki
Apr 14, 2010, 10:03 PM
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Myxomatosis wrote: jt512 wrote: Myxomatosis wrote: jt512 wrote: Myxomatosis wrote: If you want to learn better technique, best idea is to start lead climbing everything, stop top roping. And, as this post proves, if you want to learn about better technique, this forum is not the place. Jay Just because you have an opinion, it doesn't make you right. That's almost as insightful as your last post. Jay Or perhaps insightful as your own? It is my person theory that leading will teach a beginner climber more general techniques of climbing (not just movement but controlling fear, patience, route reading, clipping under pressure etc etc). I find that having a good pump teaches you better technique because you don't have the muscle strength you would fresh, resulting in better control of your muscles (for example smoother movements, using less strength eg not over gripping or being to dynamic). Its a comfort zone thing, I think people learn move about their climbing when they are pushed out of their comfort zone. You could go top rope every night at the gym on the same ole routes or you could 'sack up' and try something different, lead that route you took on last time or that route you took a big fall on and didnt want to try again.
I have to admit, when i read your first line i thought it was moronic. Now that i've read your explanation, though, i realize you're actually onto something.
Being a mostly gym climber myself, the difference between flashing 5.10 on toprope and lead-- ESPECIALLY on rock-- is literally the difference between a fun warmup and a huge, stressful undertaking. You take nothing for granted and take no shortcuts when you're on lead, and this certainly keeps you honest.
That said, when it comes to climbing past your ability level (which is nothing like comfort zone), top rope is essential, and subsequently necessary in improving as a climber.
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sp00ki
Apr 14, 2010, 10:04 PM
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Holy crap this thread moved fast.
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boadman
Apr 14, 2010, 11:25 PM
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angry wrote: That is utter nonsense. You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement.
I don't think that's always the case. Pretty regularly, when I'm gripped and super pumped, and above gear, I find little tricks to do moves that I've been pulling through without thinking on the dog. It usually is pretty ingrained after that point too.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 14, 2010, 11:42 PM
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jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement.
Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired.
So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead.
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angry
Apr 14, 2010, 11:47 PM
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boadman wrote: angry wrote: That is utter nonsense. You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. I don't think that's always the case. Pretty regularly, when I'm gripped and super pumped, and above gear, I find little tricks to do moves that I've been pulling through without thinking on the dog. It usually is pretty ingrained after that point too.
I would encourage everyone to continue to climb while tired to a point. I figure, you're not going to be fresh all the time. Actually having better control and realizing you need to find an easier way to do the same moves are two different things.
Climbing tired can make you climb smarter. Or just sloppy.
I personally like to work sequences while I'm tired because I find an efficient way that I can send after a day or two of rest.
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jt512
Apr 15, 2010, 12:09 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead.
You can lead a gumby to water...
Jay
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Gmburns2000
Apr 15, 2010, 12:24 AM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay
hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own.
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jt512
Apr 15, 2010, 12:37 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own.
Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other.
Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief.
Jay
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johnwesely
Apr 15, 2010, 12:41 AM
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sp00ki wrote: That said, when it comes to climbing past your ability level (which is nothing like comfort zone), top rope is essential, and subsequently necessary in improving as a climber.
That is false.
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davidnn5
Apr 15, 2010, 12:45 AM
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jt512 wrote: Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other. Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief. Jay
Using that logic, anything Angry, Suprasoup or Guangzhou (for example) says is by definition far more useful and valid than anything you say (...see Angry's response above indirectly refuting what you said). Not to mention the many people climbing harder than you who don't bother to post because people like you lurk the forums engaging in vain attempts to inflate your low self-esteem.
Enjoy your numberbation. 
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Gmburns2000
Apr 15, 2010, 12:49 AM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own. Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other. Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief. Jay
When did I say that? Man, you're reading comprehension is getting weak, dude. First it was yesterday when you had to delete a post when you realized you misread what I wrote, and now you're off base again.
I didn't say what is in bold. I said that's how I learned to use my legs (obviously when I just starting out). But my point was that when one's muscles get tired one can learn to use other muscles to do the same thing. There's a big difference between saying it is the best way vs. saying it is a way to learn different ways of doing the same thing.
Seriously dude, go get your glasses.
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jt512
Apr 15, 2010, 1:26 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own. Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other. Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief. Jay When did I say that? Man, you're reading comprehension is getting weak, dude. First it was yesterday when you had to delete a post when you realized you misread what I wrote, and now you're off base again. I didn't say what is in bold. I said that's how I learned to use my legs (obviously when I just starting out). But my point was that when one's muscles get tired one can learn to use other muscles to do the same thing. There's a big difference between saying it is the best way vs. saying it is a way to learn different ways of doing the same thing.
OK, let me rephrase my statement: There are far more efficient and effective ways to learn to "use your legs" climbing than by climbing until your arms are fatigued. And by "more," I mean orders of magnitude more.
Oh, and I don't, as a rule, delete posts just because I misread something somebody wrote. I don't know what you are talking about.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 15, 2010, 1:27 AM)
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Gmburns2000
Apr 15, 2010, 2:24 AM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own. Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other. Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief. Jay When did I say that? Man, you're reading comprehension is getting weak, dude. First it was yesterday when you had to delete a post when you realized you misread what I wrote, and now you're off base again. I didn't say what is in bold. I said that's how I learned to use my legs (obviously when I just starting out). But my point was that when one's muscles get tired one can learn to use other muscles to do the same thing. There's a big difference between saying it is the best way vs. saying it is a way to learn different ways of doing the same thing. OK, let me rephrase my statement: There are far more efficient and effective ways to learn to "use your legs" climbing than by climbing until your arms are fatigued. And by "more," I mean orders of magnitude more. Oh, and I don't, as a rule, delete posts just because I misread something somebody wrote. I don't know what you are talking about. Jay
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jt512
Apr 15, 2010, 2:29 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own. Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other. Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief. Jay When did I say that? Man, you're reading comprehension is getting weak, dude. First it was yesterday when you had to delete a post when you realized you misread what I wrote, and now you're off base again. I didn't say what is in bold. I said that's how I learned to use my legs (obviously when I just starting out). But my point was that when one's muscles get tired one can learn to use other muscles to do the same thing. There's a big difference between saying it is the best way vs. saying it is a way to learn different ways of doing the same thing. OK, let me rephrase my statement: There are far more efficient and effective ways to learn to "use your legs" climbing than by climbing until your arms are fatigued. And by "more," I mean orders of magnitude more. Oh, and I don't, as a rule, delete posts just because I misread something somebody wrote. I don't know what you are talking about. Jay
In your dreams, fool.
Jay
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jbro_135
Apr 15, 2010, 2:37 AM
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"in your dreams, fool!"
dialogue from the RC.com nintendo game as gmburns squares off against the last boss, jt512
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Gmburns2000
Apr 15, 2010, 2:45 AM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own. Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other. Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief. Jay When did I say that? Man, you're reading comprehension is getting weak, dude. First it was yesterday when you had to delete a post when you realized you misread what I wrote, and now you're off base again. I didn't say what is in bold. I said that's how I learned to use my legs (obviously when I just starting out). But my point was that when one's muscles get tired one can learn to use other muscles to do the same thing. There's a big difference between saying it is the best way vs. saying it is a way to learn different ways of doing the same thing. OK, let me rephrase my statement: There are far more efficient and effective ways to learn to "use your legs" climbing than by climbing until your arms are fatigued. And by "more," I mean orders of magnitude more. Oh, and I don't, as a rule, delete posts just because I misread something somebody wrote. I don't know what you are talking about. Jay [image]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/abinidab/straws.jpg[/image] In your dreams, fool. Jay
^^I doubt you'll actually get that reference, but it's fun either way.
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cracklover
Apr 15, 2010, 3:09 PM
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: You obviously do not have better control of your muscles when they are tired (pumped), and you obviously need to have good control of your muscles to learn new movement. Depends on which muscles you're talking about. I remember when I first started using my legs to climb. It was after climbing several days in a row. My arms were pumped, yet on that day I managed to climb harder than I had ever done so before. It was because I learned to use my legs instead of my arms. I don't think it is so far fetched to learn to use muscles that are not tired when others become tired. So yeah, control of your muscles is important, but just because one set is tired that doesn't mean another set is also tired and can't be used instead. You can lead a gumby to water... Jay hey, you do one thing, I find more than one way to do something. to each his own. Yeah, but one of us is climbing two number grades harder than the other, which suggests that one of us might know more about technique, and how to learn it, than the other. Like I said, all I can do is try. If you want to believe that the best way to learn to use your legs in climbing is to fatigue your arms to the point that you have no choice, no one is forcing you to question your belief. Jay When did I say that? Man, you're reading comprehension is getting weak, dude. First it was yesterday when you had to delete a post when you realized you misread what I wrote, and now you're off base again. I didn't say what is in bold. I said that's how I learned to use my legs (obviously when I just starting out). But my point was that when one's muscles get tired one can learn to use other muscles to do the same thing. There's a big difference between saying it is the best way vs. saying it is a way to learn different ways of doing the same thing. OK, let me rephrase my statement: There are far more efficient and effective ways to learn to "use your legs" climbing than by climbing until your arms are fatigued. And by "more," I mean orders of magnitude more. Oh, and I don't, as a rule, delete posts just because I misread something somebody wrote. I don't know what you are talking about. Jay
As a general rule, I thing Jay's right, that most new techniques will, and should, be learned while strong. They should be a result of pushing what you know already into new ground, and adapting as required.
But there is something to what GMBurns is getting at.
A few years ago I had a bad partial tear in an a2 pulley. In the beginning, when in full recovery, I kept climbing, but taped my bad finger to the palm of my hand to make it physically impossible to put any force on that pulley. Of course, I also dialed my climbing way down.
But what's interesting is that I learned whole new ways to use my hand. Mostly, I learned how to get a thumb over the top of a hold. This is something I'd never had to do before.
Later, I found that this technique still came in handy. One's thumbs are quite strong, and with the right body position, you can hang on with a thumb while resting the rest of the hand.
Cheers!
GO
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