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iowaclimber80
Apr 22, 2010, 4:58 AM
Post #51 of 88
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bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time?
well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes.
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TheRucat
Apr 22, 2010, 5:02 AM
Post #52 of 88
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iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Colinhoglund
Apr 22, 2010, 6:09 AM
Post #53 of 88
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Your placing too much gear . . . I appreciated that one.
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rtwilli4
Apr 22, 2010, 6:40 AM
Post #54 of 88
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iowaclimber80 wrote: I was learning to lead and I was practicing clipping while on an auto belay which had biners to clip and I went to clip the biners through my tie ins and the gym manager who taught the class told me this, metal through the belay loop and cloth through the tie ins. So I would basically be tieing in on my belay loop.
Unless I've misunderstood, the manager was correct. Metal (biners, in any application) should always go through the belay loop.
While it is fine to put a sling directly on your belay loop, you are better off girth-hitching it to your tie ins. They have an extra layer of nylon covering the load bearing webbing, preventing abrasion from nylon ropes and slings. Your belay loop, while redundant, doesn't have a protective covering and will wear out from repeated rubbing with a nylon sling.
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USnavy
Apr 22, 2010, 7:29 AM
Post #55 of 88
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rtwilli4 wrote: iowaclimber80 wrote: I was learning to lead and I was practicing clipping while on an auto belay which had biners to clip and I went to clip the biners through my tie ins and the gym manager who taught the class told me this, metal through the belay loop and cloth through the tie ins. So I would basically be tieing in on my belay loop. While it is fine to put a sling directly on your belay loop, you are better off girth-hitching it to your tie ins.
The mechanics behind the idea is that when your slings are girth hitched to the belay loop, the sling does not concentrate wear in the same spot as the sling will rotate around your belay loop. When girth hitched through the tie in points, every time you weight the sling and it shifts, it causes wear in the exact same spot and such wear is magnified if using thin Dyneema slings over wide nylon ones.
Now it is possible to attach the sling to your tie in points by securing it back to itself instead of girth hitching it. However I would still side with the belay loop tie in idea as I still think it would cause more wear by running it through the tie in points.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 22, 2010, 7:34 AM)
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jamincan
Apr 22, 2010, 11:07 AM
Post #56 of 88
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I usually just girth-hitch my slings to my belay loop because it's easier, but the hitch seems to basically be fixed in one spot. Also, the only failure of a belay loop that I have ever heard of was Todd Skinner's harness, and wasn't his setup with a girth-hitch on the belay loop?
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 22, 2010, 12:51 PM
Post #57 of 88
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cracklover wrote: dingus wrote: Wait till yer buddy is splayed out on a friction slab and then tell him to 'Layback it!" I'm going to try that one on my wife. She's got a great sense of humor. I bet she'll really appreciate it. G 
And if not, you have that extra room 
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 22, 2010, 1:03 PM
Post #58 of 88
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I overheard someone telling his group of friends, that if you take a leader fall, then you need to retire the rope. So I stepped right in and said, "Yes, he's right, and it just so happens I can take them off your hands and retire them for you at no cost." 
Another time, at Parking Lot Wall at Rumney (hmmm, coincidence?), A new leader had just done her first lead. She gets to the anchors and her friend proceeds to explain to her how to clean the anchors from 60 feet below. After a couple terrified "WHAT?!!'s", i offered to go up and show her. They accepted my offer.
I am also always amazed at how someone will just give someone a grigri and not worry too much about giving them instruction. Now, even if they manage to feed rope out and not short rope you with every move, how are you expecting to get down?
Josh
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lena_chita
Moderator
Apr 22, 2010, 1:43 PM
Post #59 of 88
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Another time, at Parking Lot Wall at Rumney (hmmm, coincidence?), A new leader had just done her first lead. She gets to the anchors and her friend proceeds to explain to her how to clean the anchors from 60 feet below. After a couple terrified "WHAT?!!'s", i offered to go up and show her. They accepted my offer.
It amazes me how often this happens: A guy yelling from the bottom:"O.K. now, put two draws opposite and opposed." Terrified girl at the top: Um, what? Opposite what? I don't get it! How do I make them opposite? Do I twist it? What?
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bill413
Apr 22, 2010, 1:45 PM
Post #60 of 88
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TheRucat wrote: iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes. Thanks for clearing that up.
Sounds complicated.
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dingus
Apr 22, 2010, 1:46 PM
Post #61 of 88
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"Just sort of scurry up it!" Advice I hollered up to Smitty, a military buddy of mine who wanted to check out climbing.
"Scurry up it!!!1111 What the fuck does that mean???"
I bet he gave me shit for 2 years after that! (it was 30 years ago!!!11111 don't try THAT at home)
I let him ponder life's great imponderables and evenetually, you know what?
He just sorta scurried up it.
Stone Door, Tennessee.
DMT
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qtm
Apr 22, 2010, 2:01 PM
Post #62 of 88
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iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes.
That's what I teach beginners. It's not all that slow once you get the hang of it, but how fast is the climber moving anyway?
It is faster to swap hands though. Your right hand is your brake hand, and you just pulled slack through and moved your left hand just below the device. Now the left hand is the brake hand. Pull slack through the device with the left, move the right back under the device, now the right becomes the brake. Sorta like swimming.
Note that I've failed one belay test and threatened with failure in another because the gym employee couldn't get it through his/her head that the left hand could ever be the brake hand and I'd taken my right "brake" hand off the rope.
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cfnubbler
Apr 22, 2010, 2:13 PM
Post #63 of 88
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qtm wrote: iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes. That's what I teach beginners. It's not all that slow once you get the hang of it, but how fast is the climber moving anyway? It is faster to swap hands though. Your right hand is your brake hand, and you just pulled slack through and moved your left hand just below the device. Now the left hand is the brake hand. Pull slack through the device with the left, move the right back under the device, now the right becomes the brake. Sorta like swimming. Note that I've failed one belay test and threatened with failure in another because the gym employee couldn't get it through his/her head that the left hand could ever be the brake hand and I'd taken my right "brake" hand off the rope.
You failed the belay test because you apparently can't get it through your head that this is abyssmal belay technique. I wouldn't let you belay me like that either.
If one can't keep up with a climber using proper belay technique (the way you teach "beginners" for example), then I submit one should not be belaying without more practice in the first place.
(This post was edited by cfnubbler on Apr 22, 2010, 2:15 PM)
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j_ung
Apr 22, 2010, 2:31 PM
Post #64 of 88
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lena_chita wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Another time, at Parking Lot Wall at Rumney (hmmm, coincidence?), A new leader had just done her first lead. She gets to the anchors and her friend proceeds to explain to her how to clean the anchors from 60 feet below. After a couple terrified "WHAT?!!'s", i offered to go up and show her. They accepted my offer. It amazes me how often this happens: A guy yelling from the bottom:"O.K. now, put two draws opposite and opposed." Terrified girl at the top: Um, what? Opposite what? I don't get it! How do I make them opposite? Do I twist it? What?
This is consistently the worst thing I see too. I especially love it when four or five people are all yelling instructions at once.
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shockabuku
Apr 22, 2010, 2:35 PM
Post #65 of 88
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lena_chita wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Another time, at Parking Lot Wall at Rumney (hmmm, coincidence?), A new leader had just done her first lead. She gets to the anchors and her friend proceeds to explain to her how to clean the anchors from 60 feet below. After a couple terrified "WHAT?!!'s", i offered to go up and show her. They accepted my offer. It amazes me how often this happens: A guy yelling from the bottom:"O.K. now, put two draws opposite and opposed." Terrified girl at the top: Um, what? Opposite what? I don't get it! How do I make them opposite? Do I twist it? What?
Yeah, girls are so hard to teach.
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qtm
Apr 22, 2010, 2:35 PM
Post #66 of 88
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cfnubbler wrote: qtm wrote: iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes. That's what I teach beginners. It's not all that slow once you get the hang of it, but how fast is the climber moving anyway? It is faster to swap hands though. Your right hand is your brake hand, and you just pulled slack through and moved your left hand just below the device. Now the left hand is the brake hand. Pull slack through the device with the left, move the right back under the device, now the right becomes the brake. Sorta like swimming. Note that I've failed one belay test and threatened with failure in another because the gym employee couldn't get it through his/her head that the left hand could ever be the brake hand and I'd taken my right "brake" hand off the rope. You failed the belay test because you apparently can't get it through your head that this is abyssmal belay technique. I wouldn't let you belay me like that either.
Abysmal? LoL, ok I won't belay you.
But no, I argued with the employee (the first time) and they *insisted* that the right hand had to be the belay hand. I asked what if I were left handed, and was told I still had to belay with the right. I asked what if I were in a belay stance in a corner and had to belay with my left, and they still insisted I had to use the right.
In reply to: If one can't keep up with a climber using proper belay technique (the way you teach "beginners" for example), then I submit one should not be belaying without more practice in the first place.
Sure, I said it's fast enough. I just gave another example that works just as well and is slightly faster. There's no reason that you can't switch hands, unless it's ingrained in your head that you have to brake with the right hand.
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cfnubbler
Apr 22, 2010, 2:41 PM
Post #67 of 88
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qtm wrote: cfnubbler wrote: qtm wrote: iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes. That's what I teach beginners. It's not all that slow once you get the hang of it, but how fast is the climber moving anyway? It is faster to swap hands though. Your right hand is your brake hand, and you just pulled slack through and moved your left hand just below the device. Now the left hand is the brake hand. Pull slack through the device with the left, move the right back under the device, now the right becomes the brake. Sorta like swimming. Note that I've failed one belay test and threatened with failure in another because the gym employee couldn't get it through his/her head that the left hand could ever be the brake hand and I'd taken my right "brake" hand off the rope. You failed the belay test because you apparently can't get it through your head that this is abyssmal belay technique. I wouldn't let you belay me like that either. Abysmal? LoL, ok I won't belay you. But no, I argued with the employee (the first time) and they *insisted* that the right hand had to be the belay hand. I asked what if I were left handed, and was told I still had to belay with the right. I asked what if I were in a belay stance in a corner and had to belay with my left, and they still insisted I had to use the right. In reply to: If one can't keep up with a climber using proper belay technique (the way you teach "beginners" for example), then I submit one should not be belaying without more practice in the first place. Sure, I said it's fast enough. I just gave another example that works just as well and is slightly faster. There's no reason that you can't switch hands, unless it's ingrained in your head that you have to brake with the right hand.
Of course you can belay with either hand, and the choice of which hand to use is a function of stance and anchor configuration, direction of travel on the next pitch, etc., but that wasn't what you were describing. If you make a habit of doing the hand over hand shuffle you described, then your belay technique is poor.
Obviously there are times when it is appropriate to temporarily and consciously switch hands when on belay duty. But the old hand over hand shuffle as a standard practice is a poor choice, to put it mildly.
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currupt4130
Apr 22, 2010, 2:46 PM
Post #68 of 88
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qtm wrote: cfnubbler wrote: qtm wrote: iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes. That's what I teach beginners. It's not all that slow once you get the hang of it, but how fast is the climber moving anyway? It is faster to swap hands though. Your right hand is your brake hand, and you just pulled slack through and moved your left hand just below the device. Now the left hand is the brake hand. Pull slack through the device with the left, move the right back under the device, now the right becomes the brake. Sorta like swimming. Note that I've failed one belay test and threatened with failure in another because the gym employee couldn't get it through his/her head that the left hand could ever be the brake hand and I'd taken my right "brake" hand off the rope. You failed the belay test because you apparently can't get it through your head that this is abyssmal belay technique. I wouldn't let you belay me like that either. Abysmal? LoL, ok I won't belay you. But no, I argued with the employee (the first time) and they *insisted* that the right hand had to be the belay hand. I asked what if I were left handed, and was told I still had to belay with the right. I asked what if I were in a belay stance in a corner and had to belay with my left, and they still insisted I had to use the right. In reply to: If one can't keep up with a climber using proper belay technique (the way you teach "beginners" for example), then I submit one should not be belaying without more practice in the first place. Sure, I said it's fast enough. I just gave another example that works just as well and is slightly faster. There's no reason that you can't switch hands, unless it's ingrained in your head that you have to brake with the right hand.
I'm not sure why you would teach beginners to be switching hands all the time. It's always been paramount when teaching beginners that their brake hand (left or right) never ever leaves the brake side of the rope. Period.
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j_ung
Apr 22, 2010, 2:57 PM
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qtm wrote: cfnubbler wrote: qtm wrote: iowaclimber80 wrote: bill413 wrote: Adk wrote: jt512 wrote: "At the gym they teach this convoluted belay method where you always hold on to the brake side of the rope," Jay Convoluted huh? Holy crap!!! Yeah - how the f*** could you ever do that? I mean - you pull the rope in, then how would you move your hands if you had to hold on all the time? well this is how i was taught at my gym you take the hand pulling the rope in and move it under the hand on the brake rope then slide your brake rope hand up and repeat as necessary it works best if you take shorter pulls but is still super slow but a good way to teach beginners how important keeping control of the brake rope is. just what i learned i use this style sometimes. That's what I teach beginners. It's not all that slow once you get the hang of it, but how fast is the climber moving anyway? It is faster to swap hands though. Your right hand is your brake hand, and you just pulled slack through and moved your left hand just below the device. Now the left hand is the brake hand. Pull slack through the device with the left, move the right back under the device, now the right becomes the brake. Sorta like swimming. Note that I've failed one belay test and threatened with failure in another because the gym employee couldn't get it through his/her head that the left hand could ever be the brake hand and I'd taken my right "brake" hand off the rope. You failed the belay test because you apparently can't get it through your head that this is abyssmal belay technique. I wouldn't let you belay me like that either. Abysmal? LoL, ok I won't belay you. But no, I argued with the employee (the first time) and they *insisted* that the right hand had to be the belay hand. I asked what if I were left handed, and was told I still had to belay with the right. I asked what if I were in a belay stance in a corner and had to belay with my left, and they still insisted I had to use the right. In reply to: If one can't keep up with a climber using proper belay technique (the way you teach "beginners" for example), then I submit one should not be belaying without more practice in the first place. Sure, I said it's fast enough. I just gave another example that works just as well and is slightly faster. There's no reason that you can't switch hands, unless it's ingrained in your head that you have to brake with the right hand.
Y'know, it's not necessary abysmal... but I think most of us who have seen it before have seen it done sloppily. I have certainly switched brake hands mid stream, but I have a good reason when I do it, and I don't make a habit of it.
Personally, when I used to give belay tests, I let whoever it was go for a round while I tried to identify a weak spot. Then, I targeted the weakness. If I couldn't exploit it, then as far as I was concerned, they passed. If they got sloppy, missed a beat or "dropped" me, I'd ask them to make adjustments or fail them. It's hard to argue with a gym employee when he's lying on the floor after you "decked" him. If I was testing you, I'd let you get a little confident, then "fall" right when you were switching hands and again when you were pulling slack with your less-dominant hand on the brake.
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Rudmin
Apr 22, 2010, 3:03 PM
Post #70 of 88
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If you need to reel in slack quickly, would you would want to be yarding in rope hand over hand, or reaching down between your legs and shuffling your hands up?
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jt512
Apr 22, 2010, 3:05 PM
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j_ung wrote: If I was testing you, I'd let you get a little confident, then "fall" right when you were switching hands and again when you were pulling slack with your less-dominant hand on the brake.
And anybody who knew what they were doing would catch you. This debate is silly.
Jay
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qtm
Apr 22, 2010, 3:20 PM
Post #72 of 88
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currupt4130 wrote: I'm not sure why you would teach beginners to be switching hands all the time. It's always been paramount when teaching beginners that their brake hand (left or right) never ever leaves the brake side of the rope. Period.
Yep. The brake hand *never* leaves the rope. The brake hand, by definition, is the hand holding the brake end of the rope, and the brake hand never lets go of the rope.
In the "move left hand under and slide right hand up rope" (which is the method I teach to beginners), which is the brake hand while you're moving your right hand up the rope? Is there any difference if you slide the hand up the rope, or take it off the rope and move it? No, because the left hand is the brake while the right is moving.
Since the left hand is already the brake, there's no reason not to just leave it there and pull slack through with it. Unless you've got it ingrained that the right must always be the brake.
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dingus
Apr 22, 2010, 3:42 PM
Post #74 of 88
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drector wrote: hafilax wrote: What's the worst climbing advice you've heard someone give... Describing a belay technique on the internet whilst having mediocre writing skills is the worse thing I have ever seen. Second to that is others with mediocre writing skills trying to describe what is wrong with the belay technique. In person, I've only seen people doing things wrong. I've never actually heard them give advice since I tend to move far enough from them to not hear any of it. Dave
Those with better writing and belaying skills tend to further obfuscate the issue with several paragraphs of nit picky BULLSHIT. This is the typical rc.com wankfest, in all its glory.
DMT
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hafilax
Apr 22, 2010, 3:47 PM
Post #75 of 88
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drector wrote: hafilax wrote: What's the worst climbing advice you've heard someone give... Describing a belay technique on the internet whilst having mediocre writing skills is the worse thing I have ever seen. Second to that is others with mediocre writing skills trying to describe what is wrong with the belay technique. In person, I've only seen people doing things wrong. I've never actually heard them give advice since I tend to move far enough from them to not hear any of it. Dave 
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