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sungam
Apr 24, 2010, 9:42 AM
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billl7 wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: whatever sunGAY. Like a flashback to 4th grade.
I actually feel sorry for him sometimes - I don't know what I would do with myself if I was that fucking stupid.
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sungam
Apr 24, 2010, 9:45 AM
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dancottle wrote: Other than an icy rope like posted above i see no reason to back up a prussic. Using two is redundant. If the top one slips it will be stopped by the bottom one. If the bottom one slips the top one will hold you. Well now actually I guess if the top one is cut it could be a problem but I going to stick to two for those very rare occasions when I need to prussic.
I would understand if people skimped on the backups if it was a huge faff, required some awkward gear, or didn't add that much safety, but it adds a pretty much bomb-proof failsafe, takes seconds to do, and only requires a 50g biner...
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USnavy
Apr 24, 2010, 10:01 AM
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sungam wrote: west_by_god_virginia wrote: the prussik is pretty fuckin safe in my book. if you're really worried, use another prussik and attach it to your harness. quit worrying about everything being redundant. Prussiks can, and DO, slide. Particularly when shock loaded.
OP: If your going to use prussiks to ascend a fixed line you must tie them in a configuration so you are supported by both of them. There is an extremely good illustration on how to do this in the book Climbing Self-Rescue: Improvising Solutions for Serious Situations. I highly recommend you read it.
You can read it here:
http://books.google.com/...ge&q&f=false
Look on page 110 of the book. It shows you how to ascend using prussiks safely.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 24, 2010, 10:17 AM)
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sethg
Apr 24, 2010, 12:28 PM
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I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot?
I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock.
I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope.
Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable.
What do you think?
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cush
Apr 24, 2010, 12:48 PM
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we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up.
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USnavy
Apr 24, 2010, 1:12 PM
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sethg wrote: I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot? I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock. I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope. Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable. What do you think?
However in my experience the autoblocks generally do not start slipping under a static load once they are locked. Not to say that they can’t, just that I have never seen it. From what I have seen once they lock they will remain locked unless an object comes into contact with it and changes its form, (e.g. you grab it) or the load is suddenly increased (e.g. you take a fall well rapping for some reason).
If you are uncomfortable with it and think the autoblock may slip you can use a prussic instead. Using a prussic will make it a bit more difficult to rappel but they are more secure and provide more friction.
Another option is when you come to a point where you need to let go of the rope, wrap the rope around your right leg five times and close your legs. Wrap the rope as far up your leg and closest to the belay device as possible. This will provide enough friction to allow you to let go of the rope regardless if you have an autoblock or not. However take care to keep your legs together so the rope does not unwrap from your leg by accident well your working.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 24, 2010, 1:17 PM)
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sherpa79
Apr 24, 2010, 4:48 PM
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Climbing on two knots is perfectly safe. Just run a sling or something from your harness to the footloop prussik. Now you have two prussiks and no change in the rhythm of your climbing. Back up knots have their place, but I find them unecessary most of the time. If you have 2 points on the rope you don't need to interrupt your climbing to tie back up knots, plus it cuts down on the cluster. Of course this is in a straightforward scenario. No passing pieces or rebelays and such.
Also, I think it's perfectly safe to use your rappel backup knot to go hands free. Just like climbing on knots though its safe only if the knot is tied right and of the appropriate length. I think this is the real heart of the issue here, not whether or not prussiks are safe.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 24, 2010, 5:05 PM
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sethg wrote: I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot? I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock. I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope. Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable. What do you think?
even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance).
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sungam
Apr 24, 2010, 5:20 PM
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sherpa79 wrote: Now you have two prussiks and no change in the rhythm of your climbing.
Just one more note, I figure I should toss this around there. If you decide to go without the back-ups, make sure if you come to a lip or bulge or anything where the rope wants to touch the rock that you toss a backup knot in. Funky pushing on the knot can make it slide.
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altelis
Apr 24, 2010, 5:43 PM
Post #35 of 52
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sethg wrote: I have a related question. When rappelling with a prussik or autoblock back-up, should you take care not to release your hands from the rope and rely solely on the friction knot? I was watching my partner rappel yesterday from the top of a route she'd just climbed, and as she descended she cleaned some of the gear. While cleaning, she'd release both hands from the rope and rely solely on her autoblock. I told her I'd always thought that was a bad practice, and that one should always keep a hand on the ropes, especially if it is not inconvenient to do so-- and here it would have been totally easy to clean the gear and keep a hand on the rope. Her response was that she'd been taught to trust the friction knot when she was trained by a certified guide and that she was comfortable with it. I could see that it was unlikely to fail since she could engage the knot and see that it was holding before she let go, but still... it made me uncomfortable. What do you think?
I know you got a few responses already, but I thought I'd add in some subtlety to the answer.
It depends 
But really mainly on one thing: is the prussik/autoblock above or below the belay device.
If its above the device it is taking all the load and if it should slip there is nothing really else that can help stop you.
If its below, its not really taking any weight but rather its actually holding the brake strand in such a way as to ensure the belay device is still holding you. Make sense?
This may (or may not) change how you view taking your hand off the rope with an autoblock.
I actually am of the personal belief that more often than not its safer to NOT use an autoblock. So when stopping while rapelling I almost always rely on the leg wrap or a mule-knot, depending on what I am trying to get accomplished.
Does that mean I never use an autoblock? Of course not. It just means that more often than not when I am rappelling it is when I really am not concerned about rock fall (so probably haven't been wearing a helmet either, gawd forbid....)
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sherpa79
Apr 24, 2010, 8:38 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance).
Really? That seems awful time consuming to me. Just curious, do you back up a Gri-gri or other type of device when using it for rappelling or cleaning? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems strange to me that people are so concerned with backups when doing a relatively static activity, like ascending a rope or rapping, but don't feel the same kind of need for it when belaying a leader or other activities which are far more dynamic. Not that I'm advocating using a backup on belay. I think it's important for a belay device to be simple. Much of the safety in a belay is in the belayer's ability to be versatile, at least in my opinion.
I usually go by the general rule that you should back up what you can when you can so long as it doesn't interfere with the overall smoothness of the operation. Multiple backups I generally view as not only unecessary, but as an interference, and hence as something that takes away from the overall safety of the activity. Clusters are unsafe. Good technique will keep you out of most clusters, and in my mind....safer.
I don't mean this to sound pedantic or anything, I really am just curious. I participate in a few activities at height both recreationally and professionally and the different mindsets that prevail in each of the activities and their origins is something I'm interested in. Ideas about what is "safe" and such.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 25, 2010, 5:30 AM
Post #37 of 52
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sherpa79 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance). Really? That seems awful time consuming to me. Just curious, do you back up a Gri-gri or other type of device when using it for rappelling or cleaning? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems strange to me that people are so concerned with backups when doing a relatively static activity, like ascending a rope or rapping, but don't feel the same kind of need for it when belaying a leader or other activities which are far more dynamic. Not that I'm advocating using a backup on belay. I think it's important for a belay device to be simple. Much of the safety in a belay is in the belayer's ability to be versatile, at least in my opinion. I usually go by the general rule that you should back up what you can when you can so long as it doesn't interfere with the overall smoothness of the operation. Multiple backups I generally view as not only unecessary, but as an interference, and hence as something that takes away from the overall safety of the activity. Clusters are unsafe. Good technique will keep you out of most clusters, and in my mind....safer. I don't mean this to sound pedantic or anything, I really am just curious. I participate in a few activities at height both recreationally and professionally and the different mindsets that prevail in each of the activities and their origins is something I'm interested in. Ideas about what is "safe" and such.
I'm a little neurotic when it comes to rappelling. in fact, for me, it is the scariest part of climbing. I just like knowing that the back up is still a back up when I take my hands off the rope. In other words:
- when my hands are on the rope I control the rope and my back up is a back up.
- when I let go of the rope, the leg wraps or the fireman's are controlling the rope and my back up is a back up
- when I let go of the rope without a leg wrap or a fireman's, my back up is no longer a back up.
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sherpa79
Apr 25, 2010, 3:54 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: sherpa79 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: even with a backup, I'd still probably do leg loops or ask for a fireman's if I had to take my hands off the rope (cleaning, for instance). Really? That seems awful time consuming to me. Just curious, do you back up a Gri-gri or other type of device when using it for rappelling or cleaning? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems strange to me that people are so concerned with backups when doing a relatively static activity, like ascending a rope or rapping, but don't feel the same kind of need for it when belaying a leader or other activities which are far more dynamic. Not that I'm advocating using a backup on belay. I think it's important for a belay device to be simple. Much of the safety in a belay is in the belayer's ability to be versatile, at least in my opinion. I usually go by the general rule that you should back up what you can when you can so long as it doesn't interfere with the overall smoothness of the operation. Multiple backups I generally view as not only unecessary, but as an interference, and hence as something that takes away from the overall safety of the activity. Clusters are unsafe. Good technique will keep you out of most clusters, and in my mind....safer. I don't mean this to sound pedantic or anything, I really am just curious. I participate in a few activities at height both recreationally and professionally and the different mindsets that prevail in each of the activities and their origins is something I'm interested in. Ideas about what is "safe" and such. I'm a little neurotic when it comes to rappelling. in fact, for me, it is the scariest part of climbing. I just like knowing that the back up is still a back up when I take my hands off the rope. In other words: - when my hands are on the rope I control the rope and my back up is a back up. - when I let go of the rope, the leg wraps or the fireman's are controlling the rope and my back up is a back up - when I let go of the rope without a leg wrap or a fireman's, my back up is no longer a back up.
Fair enough. Your logic is sound. I was thinking about it a little yesterday, about the lack of "redundancy" when belaying. But in the end, the climber is the first point of protection. If the climber doesn't fall you may go the entire route without ever weighting your belay device. Belay is a "backup" However, in rappelling, you are using your device 100% of the time, so a back up is of course worth it.
You know what else is better than not backing up a rappell? Mexican food. I'm just sayin'.
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jmeizis
Apr 25, 2010, 4:21 PM
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If you take an AMGA/PCIA/PCGI instructor course you will fail if you suspend yourself or a client from a single friction hitch. They always need to be backed up with another friction hitch, a hard knot, or a blocked belay device.
I'd imagine rope rescue courses have a similar standard. If you have a gri-gri it presents an easy back up when ascending a rope. You can also use the many other ideas presented here.
Really though just think about it. Your entire body weight is suspended off something smaller than the diameter of a single climbing rope and the only thing keeping it in place is some friction. Didn't somebody already mention how nylon has a pretty low melting point. Not as low as spectra, but still pretty low. It's not sensible to trust your life to such a flimsy piece of gear when it is so easy to back yourself up.
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coolcat83
Apr 25, 2010, 4:29 PM
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cush wrote: we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up.
Allamuchy?
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sherpa79
Apr 25, 2010, 4:53 PM
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jmeizis wrote: If you take an AMGA/PCIA/PCGI instructor course you will fail if you suspend yourself or a client from a single friction hitch. They always need to be backed up with another friction hitch, a hard knot, or a blocked belay device. I'd imagine rope rescue courses have a similar standard. If you have a gri-gri it presents an easy back up when ascending a rope. You can also use the many other ideas presented here. Really though just think about it. Your entire body weight is suspended off something smaller than the diameter of a single climbing rope and the only thing keeping it in place is some friction. Didn't somebody already mention how nylon has a pretty low melting point. Not as low as spectra, but still pretty low. It's not sensible to trust your life to such a flimsy piece of gear when it is so easy to back yourself up.
This is exactly what I'm interested in. The ISA (international society of arboriculture) hosts climbing competitions a part of which is ariel rescue. It is routine to use just a single prussik (or other grabber knot) to support yourself while ascending or descending from a tree. I believe it may even be permissable with another person on the line, but I'd have to double check that. It may not be. Our cords are typically bigger than most of the back up prussiks climbers use, but still. A single point is a single point.
I personally have put more than a two person load on a single grabber knot it a slightly dynamic situation without consequence. In fact it saved my life.
I "know" they will hold and my actions reflect this. However, when climbing a rope or working from one (especially with a saw) I always have two points.
Descending is a mix. Sometimes one, sometimes two. Whatever the situation calls for.
Like I said, it's something I think about a lot.
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jt512
Apr 25, 2010, 6:51 PM
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sherpa79 wrote: The ISA (international society of arboriculture) hosts climbing competitions a part of which is ariel rescue.
Does the winner get to keep the little mermaid?
Jay
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cush
Apr 25, 2010, 7:42 PM
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coolcat83 wrote: cush wrote: we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up. Allamuchy?
no, it was at a smaller, local area in north NJ. how is allumuchy though? never been.
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jmeizis
Apr 25, 2010, 10:22 PM
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Generaly if I'm doing something where I'm unlikely to fall, say building an anchor near a cliff edge or traversing a fixed line on something 4th class then I would just use one. The friction hitch is the backup to me not falling. If someone is hanging on the wall, midair or whatever they're always backed up with something besides one friction hitch, usually it's a blocked belay device.
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sherpa79
Apr 25, 2010, 11:19 PM
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jt512 wrote: sherpa79 wrote: The ISA (international society of arboriculture) hosts climbing competitions a part of which is ariel rescue. Does the winner get to keep the little mermaid? Jay
Yep. Jealous much? Next time I'll spell check for you, mmmk sweetheart?
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coolcat83
Apr 26, 2010, 12:04 AM
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cush wrote: coolcat83 wrote: cush wrote: we were top roping two steep routes both of which were at the height of, or well above our climbing ability. it was a long heinous hike around to the top of the cliff to set it up and we wanted to avoid doing that again so we prusiked up. Allamuchy? no, it was at a smaller, local area in north NJ. how is allumuchy though? never been.
It's nice, several walls to choose from, a few easy leads if you want and some decent slab (5.6-5.12). it's pretty easy to set up on too. take the 4th class approach to the left of the main wall to setup and you can avoid going all the way up the mountain and rapping down (which i thought was what you were talking about). the other walls are super easy to set up on with easily accessed trees and features.
PM me if you want more info.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 26, 2010, 12:46 AM
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How does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum?
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Gmburns2000
Apr 26, 2010, 12:55 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: How does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum?
I don't know, how does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum?
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 26, 2010, 12:33 PM
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j_ung wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: How does a top roping thread end up in the trad climbing forum? Well, it's too late now. Every time a mod moves a thread God carves a notch into a puppy.
I wasn't requesting a move, especially not at the expense of a puppy. Not only is this a top roping thread, however, but he is requesting beta on something that is totally unnecessary. You cannot tell me that with a top rope set up, that prussiking is the best solution. 
Anyway, if they have ANY locking belay device, whether it's a grigri or reverso/guide type, it would be easier to use that, and have one prussik for the foot loop.
Josh
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