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sausalito
Apr 28, 2010, 3:06 AM
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What immediate medical attention are you going to provide? What if they do have a bleed.... I am sure you can do a thorough enough physical to determine involvement right? So then what? You find they are not breathing? What if they arent breathing? Single person cpr for an indefinite amount of time until someone stumbles upon your situation? You are correct in that if this was in a more controlled situation with access to more resources immediate medical attention within minutes could dictate outcome... but that is not the situation you are in.
Act first think later... often the battle cry of many under qualified folks that have things like wilderness first responder courses under their belts. 5 minutes to survey damage in the event of a brain bleed, while on a wall, HOURS away from rescue is not going to dictate or even slightly influence an outcome. So what if you lock them off and go to get help and they seize on the line? Are they any better off for it?
I would bet every penny I have that I have seen more brain bleeds in the past 6 months than you will in your life... ER nurse x5 years, flight nurse x3 years, neuro/cvicu nurse x1 year while finishing up CCNP school, adult critical care nurse practitioner in a trauma icu new on the job since october.....
In short look at times:
-pausing for 5 minutes and the patient not responding then jumping in to action slows you down for 5 minutes. So loss of time 5 minutes.
Pausing for 5 minutes and finding that the patient responds and is able to assist, even minimally, could save you HOURS.
AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOURS possibly saved vs. minutes possibly lost.
its an opportunity cost trade off but I can't understand why anyone with any real experience and any real grasp on how fucked you are with a head bleed dangling on the end of your rope... I can't understand how with a straight face you could deny this advice.
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moose_droppings
Apr 28, 2010, 4:27 AM
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So.......opening an airway, making sure they can breath and stopping bleeding can all wait for 5 minutes? If they can't make it on their own in the first 5 minutes that you get to them, then to hell with them since it would of been a waste of your time?
Slowing you down for 5 minutes does not equal losing 5 minutes.
Pausing for 5 minutes equals losing 5 minutes.
Do your climbing partners know this is your plan?
Have you lost all compassion?
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Apr 28, 2010, 4:38 AM)
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davidnn5
Apr 28, 2010, 5:41 AM
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Bugger compassion, what about harness hang!
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sausalito
Apr 28, 2010, 11:25 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: So.......opening an airway, making sure they can breath and stopping bleeding can all wait for 5 minutes? If they can't make it on their own in the first 5 minutes that you get to them, then to hell with them since it would of been a waste of your time? Slowing you down for 5 minutes does not equal losing 5 minutes. Pausing for 5 minutes equals losing 5 minutes. Do your climbing partners know this is your plan? Have you lost all compassion?
the reality is that in this scenario there is no way you could get to a person within the needed time if they had no air way. He is being pretty specific about the situation and unless I misunderstood he is above the person who has sustained the injury.
So the decision is NOT get an airway or wait. Its start doing shit that will likely not get you to the patient or help all that much quicker or wait. That is what you people are not seeing....
but to follow your line of thinking... he doesnt have an airway and isn't breathing. In the most ideal results in this situation you get to him in what 20-30 minutes? Even if you get to him in 10 minutes what are you going to do? Intubate with your dick and do compressions with your hands while breathing for him with your ass? Kind of like 69? All while hanging on a rope?
Sometimes people die. If someone is in the described situation and they don't have an airway, have a head bleed, or have any other massive trauma they will die. Look at Mike Tucker. He had a ground fall with PLENTY of people around. Had an airway and a pulse. Rescue was immediately summoned. Was airlifted within a few hours, which in the situation we are talking it would be more like 10 hours before anyone was getting airlifted anywhere..... he still died. With physicians basically on scene immediately from what it sounded like.
You are simply an idiot if you think you will be able to summon help, take care of a critically ill patient and have any positive outcome if the person who is injured has any type of traumatic brain injury or other serious trauma.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 28, 2010, 4:14 PM
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But you are ignoring the fact that these are internet superheroes you are talking to. Having a keyboard makes you an expert, right?
Pausing for 5-10 minutes so you can think through things clearly will almost ALWAYS save you time. Rushing into things rarely helps.
If someone was unconscious with possible loss of airway, internal bleeding, hanging from a harness hundreds of feet up, you are not likely to save this person. If I was the leader, I would try, but the second would be screwed IMO.
Josh
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moose_droppings
Apr 28, 2010, 4:41 PM
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sausalito wrote: moose_droppings wrote: So.......opening an airway, making sure they can breath and stopping bleeding can all wait for 5 minutes? If they can't make it on their own in the first 5 minutes that you get to them, then to hell with them since it would of been a waste of your time? Slowing you down for 5 minutes does not equal losing 5 minutes. Pausing for 5 minutes equals losing 5 minutes. Do your climbing partners know this is your plan? Have you lost all compassion? the reality is that in this scenario there is no way you could get to a person within the needed time if they had no air way. He is being pretty specific about the situation and unless I misunderstood he is above the person who has sustained the injury. So the decision is NOT get an airway or wait. Its start doing shit that will likely not get you to the patient or help all that much quicker or wait. That is what you people are not seeing.... but to follow your line of thinking... he doesnt have an airway and isn't breathing. In the most ideal results in this situation you get to him in what 20-30 minutes? Even if you get to him in 10 minutes what are you going to do? Intubate with your dick and do compressions with your hands while breathing for him with your ass? Kind of like 69? All while hanging on a rope? Sometimes people die. If someone is in the described situation and they don't have an airway, have a head bleed, or have any other massive trauma they will die. Look at Mike Tucker. He had a ground fall with PLENTY of people around. Had an airway and a pulse. Rescue was immediately summoned. Was airlifted within a few hours, which in the situation we are talking it would be more like 10 hours before anyone was getting airlifted anywhere..... he still died. With physicians basically on scene immediately from what it sounded like. You are simply an idiot if you think you will be able to summon help, take care of a critically ill patient and have any positive outcome if the person who is injured has any type of traumatic brain injury or other serious trauma.
Your responses sounds like you don't even try to get to them quickly. You have to try (safely) to get to them as quickly as you can, not just say, "well I can tell from here their condition is hopeless and no need for me to even try". I also didn't say there was no airway, might be just compromised and needs additional opening. You don't know till you get to them, hanging harness and unconscious included, what the chances are for them. You best be doing all you can to get to them quickly. Your simply an idiot for not trying.
To say it's useless from a distance is unacceptable.
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moose_droppings
Apr 28, 2010, 4:57 PM
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I agree that stopping to think about a safe way to quickly get to them is prudent, and your number one priority is to keep yourself safe. Now if everything you say in your post is wrong with them, then your right, they probably won't make it, but I can't see how you can tell what all is wrong to make that call till you get to them. Maybe you or sausalito could explain that to me how you do that, I'm very open to learning.
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viciado
Apr 28, 2010, 5:29 PM
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Moose, I did not interpret Blueyes to be saying that it was possible to tell without going. He was specific in saying he would try, but that if the damage was severe, then there would be little to no hope for your second.
I am thinking that it would take well over five minutes to get back to them and set an anchor to safely assess and eventually extract. Any concerns about harness hang etc. may be moot given that potential time frame. Yes, they may be siuffering from several issues, bit frankly, I am not sure that any amount of medical training will be of much use given the extreme nature of the situation unless the second can recover enough as to be of some help. Rescue with a conscious victim is hard enough.
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majid_sabet
Apr 28, 2010, 5:32 PM
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let's call USNAVY so he could rap down from the top BFA with 5 SS bolt ( 3/8 x 4.75" long)and his hilti drill, set few anchor here and there, drop a 600 footer and lower the injured climber with his modified ATC
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drector
Apr 28, 2010, 5:32 PM
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Most people would take five minutes to just figure out that the second is not faking it for a laugh.
How long does it take to yell at the second a few times, panic, look around dumbfounded, yell a little more, look at the anchor and think about what might be a good course of action, yell some more, panic some more, etc.... I see the first five minutes going by pretty quickly and without anything useful happening at all.
Maybe staying calm and not jumping to conclusions would be best give that the five minutes will pass without much happening anyhow. Forming a plan in this time will speed up the action taken anyhow.
I'll go with the wait and yell a few times, Make sure that this is what it appears and that action is required "immediately." Then do the traverse, anchor, and lower or dual rap type of action.
Dave
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marc801
Apr 28, 2010, 7:27 PM
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I'd call Chuck Norris for help.
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majid_sabet
Apr 28, 2010, 9:10 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: I agree that stopping to think about a safe way to quickly get to them is prudent, and your number one priority is to keep yourself safe. Now if everything you say in your post is wrong with them, then your right, they probably won't make it, but I can't see how you can tell what all is wrong to make that call till you get to them. Maybe you or sausalito could explain that to me how you do that, I'm very open to learning.
I read a case where a climber was trying to help two down climber and things went to hell while he was trying to approached the climbers. he fell himself and barley stopped by his partner meters away from an overhanging cliff in to a deep crevasse. his buddy had to spend few hours setting up system to get his as* out. The other climber both died due to sever injury and had to be carried out days later.
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sausalito
Apr 29, 2010, 12:54 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: But you are ignoring the fact that these are internet superheroes you are talking to. Having a keyboard makes you an expert, right? Pausing for 5-10 minutes so you can think through things clearly will almost ALWAYS save you time. Rushing into things rarely helps. If someone was unconscious with possible loss of airway, internal bleeding, hanging from a harness hundreds of feet up, you are not likely to save this person. If I was the leader, I would try, but the second would be screwed IMO. Josh
ah yes... I did forget this fact. Glad to see someone else sees the fallacy of logic in not waiting/planning for a few minutes. Eating a snickers bar or other similar food would actually be the ideal scenario.
So my advice now is to wait for five minutes while eating a snickers and drinking about 8 ounces of water. You are likely already kind of fatigued if you have been climbing and giving yourself a little energy will be helpful in 10 hours from now when you are still going 100% to do everything you can.....
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sausalito
Apr 29, 2010, 1:08 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: sausalito wrote: moose_droppings wrote: So.......opening an airway, making sure they can breath and stopping bleeding can all wait for 5 minutes? If they can't make it on their own in the first 5 minutes that you get to them, then to hell with them since it would of been a waste of your time? Slowing you down for 5 minutes does not equal losing 5 minutes. Pausing for 5 minutes equals losing 5 minutes. Do your climbing partners know this is your plan? Have you lost all compassion? the reality is that in this scenario there is no way you could get to a person within the needed time if they had no air way. He is being pretty specific about the situation and unless I misunderstood he is above the person who has sustained the injury. So the decision is NOT get an airway or wait. Its start doing shit that will likely not get you to the patient or help all that much quicker or wait. That is what you people are not seeing.... but to follow your line of thinking... he doesnt have an airway and isn't breathing. In the most ideal results in this situation you get to him in what 20-30 minutes? Even if you get to him in 10 minutes what are you going to do? Intubate with your dick and do compressions with your hands while breathing for him with your ass? Kind of like 69? All while hanging on a rope? Sometimes people die. If someone is in the described situation and they don't have an airway, have a head bleed, or have any other massive trauma they will die. Look at Mike Tucker. He had a ground fall with PLENTY of people around. Had an airway and a pulse. Rescue was immediately summoned. Was airlifted within a few hours, which in the situation we are talking it would be more like 10 hours before anyone was getting airlifted anywhere..... he still died. With physicians basically on scene immediately from what it sounded like. You are simply an idiot if you think you will be able to summon help, take care of a critically ill patient and have any positive outcome if the person who is injured has any type of traumatic brain injury or other serious trauma. Your responses sounds like you don't even try to get to them quickly. You have to try (safely) to get to them as quickly as you can, not just say, "well I can tell from here their condition is hopeless and no need for me to even try". I also didn't say there was no airway, might be just compromised and needs additional opening. You don't know till you get to them, hanging harness and unconscious included, what the chances are for them. You best be doing all you can to get to them quickly. Your simply an idiot for not trying. To say it's useless from a distance is unacceptable.
No. what I am saying is that in this scenario they are either going to live or they are not going to live. Little you do, short of leaving them there completely or injuring them further/terminally will change that.
If they are really bad they are fucked. If they are not really bad, meaning they can make it the several hours they will need to make it to be rescued, then that 5 minutes is useless.
Getting yourself readily prepared for what is about to commence is the BEST thing to do.... even surgeons in controlled operating rooms with traumatic injuries and patients that are on the verge of death have time outs and several check offs. These are in place to prevent mistakes and because they realize that not taking that time more often hurts than helps the patient. How in a much less controlled situation involving a person much less likely to have experience like a surgeon is it better to act first?
I think my larger point is that if they are so critical that they need medical attention within 10 minutes they are screwed. If they can make it past that 10 minutes then they will have a more prepared, hopefully freshly hydrated and a 300ish calorie snack eating partner trying to do everything in their power to save their life.
I guess its up to the individual but having been a flight nurse and flown in to some pretty gnarly scenes I can say that I always appreciated the thoughtful person in the crowd prior to my arrival than the one that was concentrated on moving swiftly. How are you even going to stabilize the c-spine in order to touch the patient. Moving the rope at all could turn it from a displaced c-2 fx. to cord involvement.
There is no right answer to this situation. But to say taking a few minutes to gather yourself, get hydrated and so on is simply insane.
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testpilot
Apr 29, 2010, 1:39 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Do your climbing partners know this is your plan?
sausalito - I would climb with you anytime...It would be much more comforting to be with someone who could take some time out to think about their next move before contributing to the problem. As a fellow Paramedic I can also appreciate someone who is calm in the storm and focused...not just hastily reacting. As was mentioned, people get their bell rung everyday whether its boxing, car wrecks or what have you. It doesn't mean its deadly. Sometimes it may take a few to come around and everything could be fine. On the other hand, like sausalito said, if it is a true head injury with brain swelling, seizures, prolonged unconsiousness, etc... youre WAY behind the 8 ball long before you even thought of rushing to the rescue.
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moose_droppings
Apr 29, 2010, 1:50 AM
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Beautiful day in the hills today for a hike.
Now, where were we.
Sorry to all.
I read into it and took exception to the notion that there is no need to hurry because there might not be anything you can do anyway. This may come true, but only after you've made it to them and make the call. I can accept any outcome from that point on. After that would then be the time to take 5 and come up with the appropriate plan on which course to take now that you've acquired info on their condition. Were probably going to disagree on the idea that it shouldn't take you 5 minutes to come up with a plan to get to them. I can agree to disagree on that. Executing the plan may well take some time, but I still wouldn't abandoned hope just because you've read somewhere that your going to die in x amount of time from HHS. To hell with that. Maybe my persistence to get to you (again, in a safe manner) may be within the time frame to help pull you through. If it's not, I can say to myself I honestly tried. That's not trying to be a superhero, to me it's just doing the right thing.
ClimbOn
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majid_sabet
Apr 29, 2010, 10:12 PM
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As an expert n00b, I been telling my students these a million times
so remember these three things and repeat after me
1- Observe
2- plan
3- Execute
the minute you start doing these backward,
yugonnaaa die
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edge
Apr 29, 2010, 10:17 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: As an expert n00b, I been telling my students these a million times so remember these three things and repeat after me 1- Observe 2- Plan 3- Execute the minute you start doing these backward, yugonnaaa die
So, (remember you heard it first here, kids,) OPE not EPO.
OPE sounds like "HOPE," But "EPO" sounds like a chicka with too many tatts and a fetish for body piercing and black garb who likes to cut herself.
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acorneau
Apr 30, 2010, 12:03 AM
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edge wrote: So, (remember you heard it first here, kids,) OPE not EPO. OPE sounds like "HOPE," But "EPO" sounds like a chicka with too many tatts and a fetish for body piercing and black garb who likes to cut herself.
"OPE" is for "other people's equipment"
"EPO" is for "Electronic Parts Outlet".
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hugepedro
Apr 30, 2010, 12:30 AM
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joewtc wrote: How to rescue this traverse? Leader finished leading a run-out 50m 5.10 pitch with a 60m rope (she has an extra 60m rope in her pack). She's belaying Follower with a ATC guide. Follower fell, knocked unconscious. The next and previous pitches are both traverses. The rest of the wall is 5.15. There's no chance for Leader to rope solo up to do a pendulum. Assuming Leader has all the gear and skills in the world to rope solo, self-rescue, escape belay, haul, etc. I originally thought about using the second rope to rope solo back to the starting anchor and build a "slack line" system with a pulley to transfer the Follower back to the anchor, clean everything and then rappel down. But the force multiplication would be immense for the anchors at both ends. Imagine me and my partner are 150pounds each and the force on each anchor would be 3000pounds. What do you guys think?
Seems to me you have enough rope to rig this "slack line' with plenty of slack so that you don't have outrageous force multiplication on the anchors. Even if the angle of your line is 150 degrees you're only talking double your combined body weight on each anchor plus whatever you generate from your movement.
Use the extra rope to haul your second up to the anchor above them, secure them there, and get them off the rope. Now you have 2 ropes.
Rope solo back to the previous anchor and fix the end of the rope there to establish your "slack" traverse line.
If your second rope will be long enough to rig a hauling system to bring your buddy up from the bottom apex of the traverse line, then rig it on the anchor before you head back to your buddy. If not, then once you get your buddy to the bottom apex of the traverse line, secure him there, ascend the line, and rig an intermediate hauling point on the traverse line. You could have rigged this before your second's weight was on the travers line if you thought about it then by tying a bite in the traverse line, or your could use friction knots on the traverse line if you didn't.
Involved and time consuming, but doable.
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moose_droppings
Apr 30, 2010, 12:39 AM
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I'm going to say #1 is keeping yourself safe all the way throughout.
Now to go with what you've outlined. Doesn't change anything I've said prior, but for you, here goes.
Your #1
You've observed your partner taking a fall. Can they hear you, are they responding. If yes, gather info that will be needed to be factored into your plan. If not, all you can conclude from where your at is they are not responding and that it could be from a myriad of reasons, from simple to serious.
Your #2
In this instance the plan is very simple. You've been belaying for a while so you should have enough gas in your tank to make it back to your partner before you rest. If you must, then by all means take a bite and a slurp, doesn't take but a few secs.
Your #3
Get to them and formulate another plan based on further info of their condition. Be steadfats in your goal. It's not a rush job and no one is playing super hero (josh?). My safety first and their condition secondly. No reason to drag your feet though.
I don't have the powers that some here have to know for fact that my partner is going to either make it or not and that taking a 5 minute time out has no bearing on the outcome. I easily concede that if they have considerable trauma, if they have severe head injuries, if they're not breathing, if they're bleeding profusely and all the other severe ifs they want to toss into the scene, that then it would be a futile task to try to get to them in a timely (and safe) manner.
What if all that was needed was to get to them and give them a good nipple twist (painful stimuli) to snap them out of their unconsciousness and got them to move around, saving them from HHS. They could very well be good enough now to help pull their share and get the both of you back to safe ground.
To say there is nothing you can change by trying to get to them in a timely manner without knowing the condition they are in first seems quite the feat. Until then I'll just go ahead and get to then as quickly as I can, no harm no foul in trying.
Going back I just read up thread about the surgeon analogy. What in the world does a surgeon backing off and taking 5 prior to operating have to do with you're partner hanging off the wall. A patient in an OR is attended to by more than one person with all the ALS systems on ready if needed. Not a very good comparison, but sounds lofty and authoritative.
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sausalito
May 1, 2010, 6:42 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: I'm going to say #1 is keeping yourself safe all the way throughout. Now to go with what you've outlined. Doesn't change anything I've said prior, but for you, here goes. Your #1 You've observed your partner taking a fall. Can they hear you, are they responding. If yes, gather info that will be needed to be factored into your plan. If not, all you can conclude from where your at is they are not responding and that it could be from a myriad of reasons, from simple to serious. Your #2 In this instance the plan is very simple. You've been belaying for a while so you should have enough gas in your tank to make it back to your partner before you rest. If you must, then by all means take a bite and a slurp, doesn't take but a few secs. Your #3 Get to them and formulate another plan based on further info of their condition. Be steadfats in your goal. It's not a rush job and no one is playing super hero (josh?). My safety first and their condition secondly. No reason to drag your feet though. I don't have the powers that some here have to know for fact that my partner is going to either make it or not and that taking a 5 minute time out has no bearing on the outcome. I easily concede that if they have considerable trauma, if they have severe head injuries, if they're not breathing, if they're bleeding profusely and all the other severe ifs they want to toss into the scene, that then it would be a futile task to try to get to them in a timely (and safe) manner. What if all that was needed was to get to them and give them a good nipple twist (painful stimuli) to snap them out of their unconsciousness and got them to move around, saving them from HHS. They could very well be good enough now to help pull their share and get the both of you back to safe ground. To say there is nothing you can change by trying to get to them in a timely manner without knowing the condition they are in first seems quite the feat. Until then I'll just go ahead and get to then as quickly as I can, no harm no foul in trying. Going back I just read up thread about the surgeon analogy. What in the world does a surgeon backing off and taking 5 prior to operating have to do with you're partner hanging off the wall. A patient in an OR is attended to by more than one person with all the ALS systems on ready if needed. Not a very good comparison, but sounds lofty and authoritative.
You just made my point... either the person is not going to survive... all the first ifs, or they are going to survive, the second if of twisting the nipple. My entire point is that getting to them in 10-15 minutes, which is about how long it would take if you started immediately in the given scenario, or 15-20 minutes which is the initial time estimate + 5 minutes, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. NONE. Either they have the ability to survive that time on their own or they don't.
In arguing your point you made mine. They are either going to survive without major medical intervention (nipple twist...) or they are not (lots of other bad shit....) So again. Getting to them immediately is NOT a necessity and you will not be able to get to them immediately... fastest time from injury I would bet is 15 minutes. Thats if you extremely quick to realize they have been knocked out. You are NOT qualified to question my advice and you are NOT correct.
Until I see some sort of peer reviewed study or even an anecdotal story that lends credibility to your position I will continue to advise people to calm down, gather yourself, and try to think of ALL options BEFORE you do anything. You still have not answered how you are going to stabilize their c-spine prior touching them/nipple twisting them.
There are a million reasons to not jump in to immediate action.. I can't think of and you have not offered a single compelling reason why one should jump in to immediate action.
A timely manner is where we diverge I guess. I wait 5 minutes and prepare
-make a list of differential diagnosis
-get some calories in me
-come up with a timeline in which things need to be done
-factor in any weather changes that will come in to play if sun down will have a temp impact.. plan accordingly
-make certain time goals (ie. get to climber within 20 minutes, get off wall in 2 hours, make contact with 3rd party within 4 hours, get a head CT for my buddy within 5 hours
-glascow coma score sheet for initial contact/20mins, 1 hour, 1.5 hour.....
-say a prayer to someone/thing....
Do your climbing partners know how under qualified and over opinionated you are?
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altelis
May 1, 2010, 8:57 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: As an expert n00b, I been telling my students these a million times so remember these three things and repeat after me 1- Observe 2- plan 3- Execute the minute you start doing these backward, yugonnaaa die
Who the hell is giving this post 1 star? This is one of the most sensible and readable posts I've seen in a LONG time
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highangle
May 1, 2010, 9:26 PM
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Crazy to hear some of the "go go go!" ideas here. best thing, as stated is to take a minute, plan and not put yourself into a position where you are unable to assist your partner. Maybe that's 2 minutes, maybe it's 5, maybe 10?? But no matter what, don't create a second victim.
A very knowledgeable medic I have trained with says: "don't just do something, stand there" or, as Paul Petzoldt said, smoke a cigarette, then take action.
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majid_sabet
May 1, 2010, 11:43 PM
Post #50 of 56
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Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
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moose_droppings wrote: I'm going to say #1 is keeping yourself safe all the way throughout. Now to go with what you've outlined. Doesn't change anything I've said prior, but for you, here goes. Your #1 You've observed your partner taking a fall. Can they hear you, are they responding. If yes, gather info that will be needed to be factored into your plan. If not, all you can conclude from where your at is they are not responding and that it could be from a myriad of reasons, from simple to serious. Your #2 In this instance the plan is very simple. You've been belaying for a while so you should have enough gas in your tank to make it back to your partner before you rest. If you must, then by all means take a bite and a slurp, doesn't take but a few secs. Your #3 Get to them and formulate another plan based on further info of their condition. Be steadfats in your goal. It's not a rush job and no one is playing super hero (josh?). My safety first and their condition secondly. No reason to drag your feet though. I don't have the powers that some here have to know for fact that my partner is going to either make it or not and that taking a 5 minute time out has no bearing on the outcome. I easily concede that if they have considerable trauma, if they have severe head injuries, if they're not breathing, if they're bleeding profusely and all the other severe ifs they want to toss into the scene, that then it would be a futile task to try to get to them in a timely (and safe) manner. What if all that was needed was to get to them and give them a good nipple twist (painful stimuli) to snap them out of their unconsciousness and got them to move around, saving them from HHS. They could very well be good enough now to help pull their share and get the both of you back to safe ground. To say there is nothing you can change by trying to get to them in a timely manner without knowing the condition they are in first seems quite the feat. Until then I'll just go ahead and get to then as quickly as I can, no harm no foul in trying. Going back I just read up thread about the surgeon analogy. What in the world does a surgeon backing off and taking 5 prior to operating have to do with you're partner hanging off the wall. A patient in an OR is attended to by more than one person with all the ALS systems on ready if needed. Not a very good comparison, but sounds lofty and authoritative.
right of the academy we learned these three things
First, you as rescuer are # 1 on the list
Second, your partner is next on the list to worry about
and Third, you worry about that dude at the end of the line.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 1, 2010, 11:44 PM)
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