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adatesman
Jul 9, 2010, 11:56 PM
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oldsalt
Jul 10, 2010, 12:39 AM
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Sure, I'd like to do that. How did you have in mind... email? phone? berrys@
Thanks JT.
My pc went dead. Sent from my BlackBerry. I will ger back to you. I want to talk.
Out for awhile....
(This post was edited by oldsalt on Jul 10, 2010, 1:27 AM)
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jt512
Jul 10, 2010, 1:13 AM
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oldsalt wrote: Sure, I'd like to do that. How did you have in mind... email? phone? b...@...com
That ought to get the spam rolling.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 10, 2010, 1:14 AM)
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robbovius
Jul 13, 2010, 1:18 PM
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Thread drift alert!!!!
adatesman wrote: oldsalt wrote: I love to use my device when doing lead solos, and not think about retiring on the proceeds from selling it. <tangent> Oh BTW, you've made mention of this device once or twice before and I'm insanely curious about it. If you'd be willing to chat offline about it I'd be more than happy to sign a NDA. I'm not entirely thrilled with how my Eddy-based system (based on HealyJE's system) is behaving with my new rope, so am halfheartedly looking at alternatives. </tangent>
yeah me either, it kinda doesn't work so well. and my wren soloist makes me nervous. and my cinch based system works great, but with respect to Maldaly's wishes, I quit using it.
Old salt, you and I had talked about this a year or two ago I think. I would still like to take a look at what you designed and see how it compares with my own ideas. As with Aric an NDA is all good.
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adatesman
Jul 13, 2010, 2:22 PM
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oldsalt
Jul 13, 2010, 3:12 PM
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Good idea! Thanks.
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the_climber
Jul 13, 2010, 5:50 PM
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Thought I would chime in too. I'd be up for discussion on this as well, no problem if a NDA is needed.
I switched over to an Eddy a few years back, and so far it's the best compromise I've found for RS. Similar system to Joseph's, but everyone needs to find what works best for them in this activity. Only issue I have is I'm looking at retiring the rope I use with it, and am looking at the other rope options. Aric, which rope are you using that you don't like? I know Joseph was using a 9.8 then switched to a 10.2
My choice has been the Monster 9.8 right from the start. It's starting to get a little fuzzier now and the only problems I've had with feeding is coming out of the pack I use. Granted it could be because the pack is getting a little fuzzy too.
Not a fan of the GriGri, Soloist, AidSolo... Self taught on the Clove hitch, added a few twiss to the system for a while then moved onto other devices/techniques. Love how the SP feeds, hate how I get sacked almost every lead though. 
Set a new personal best for difficulty on Trad rope solo 2 days ago... on Rockies limestone none the less too.
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oldsalt
Jul 13, 2010, 6:13 PM
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I don't want to deal with a rack, a tag line bag when I use one, and a rope bag, too. The Guardian lets the rope come up smoothly at any point in the climb.
I will add that I never go past the middle mark on the rope. I believe that if I string together two pitches of lead solo, the weight of the rope between me and the ground anchor will at some point start dragging the rest of the slack through the device.
If the weight of the remaining rope is not countering the weight of the rope that is out and clipped, then that remnant will start sliding out much sooner from a pack.
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adatesman
Jul 13, 2010, 6:37 PM
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the_climber
Jul 13, 2010, 7:07 PM
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adatesman wrote: Anyway, as I was telling Oldsalt offline it's more that I haven't yet gotten comfortable with trusting that it'll lock in a fall. My old rope was a well used 10.something (10.2?) that would practically lock if you looked at it funny. This 9.8 will lock, but between the newness and dry treatment I'm not sure how readily and in every position.  I still believe 99% of the time the leader should not fall.
adatesman wrote: My system is very, very close to HealyJE's, which isn't surprising given that's what I started with and found no need to change anything. IIRC he uses a biner on the shoulder strap of his pack to keep the rope routed properly (and if this isn't the case then it's the one thing I've changed) and I think that adding one of those old-school carabiner brake bars to that biner will help address my friction/locking concerns. Basically rope comes out of the bag and around the biner brake bar and then down to the Eddy. Seems to me this little wiggle in the rope path would provide more than enough friction to trigger the cam on the Eddy to release should the rope run, yet not so much as to make feeding out slack a pain.
As for Dry treatments on ropes, I am not a fan of using a rope with a dry treatment for rope solo on the Eddy. Reduces the friction too much, and in my experience there are no benefits for ease of feed on the device that a simple matter of taking extra care when stacking the rope in your pack can't solve. Only exception is when the rope really becomes wet... Eddy doesn't like that. It's all a compromise for this activity.
adatesman wrote: BTW, I think Oldsalt's really on to something with his device. Looks quite promising.
I would very much be interested in hearing more for OldSalt on his device.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jul 14, 2010, 11:47 PM)
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moose_droppings
Jul 13, 2010, 7:48 PM
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oldsalt wrote: I don't want to deal with a rack, a tag line bag when I use one, and a rope bag, too. The Guardian lets the rope come up smoothly at any point in the climb. I will add that I never go past the middle mark on the rope. I believe that if I string together two pitches of lead solo, the weight of the rope between me and the ground anchor will at some point start dragging the rest of the slack through the device. If the weight of the remaining rope is not countering the weight of the rope that is out and clipped, then that remnant will start sliding out much sooner from a pack.
If I'm reading you right you can counter the weight from the ground side of rope with a rebelay off of one of your pieces of pro. Take an old shoelace (some use a rubber band) and make a prussic out of it and pull the slack up from the ground side onto the prussic which is attached to your piece of pro.
I too spend a lot of time roped soloing and am always curious to hear of and or try something different, so I'm also interested in your device. I'm currently using a soloist. Iknow, Iknow, I'm going to die right. I tie plenty of backup knots when I feel the need. I just can't get myself to commit to yet another high dollar device and am kosher with the knot BU for now.
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moose_droppings
Jul 13, 2010, 11:17 PM
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Yes, you read me right.
I agree with short pitches when I rope solo. I'm never in a hurry and I like building anchors for both up and down pulls. I also like knowing that there's a good place to build a rap station every 100ft or less in case I need to bail in a timely fashion.
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adatesman
Jul 14, 2010, 12:01 AM
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dugl33
Jul 14, 2010, 12:49 AM
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adatesman wrote: Adding a few minor points for those not familiar with the practice... 1. Rope gets clipped through the biner as usual, rubber band only holds the slack from passing back down 2. I try and only do this on pieces I sling long to allow enough play in the system to prevent the piece from pulling in the opposite direction than intended. Or to put it another way: rubber band on the biner clipped direct to a nut = bad, rubber band clipped to the biner on a double length runner = ok.
I've had my own mental debate regarding the break away concept. I haven't been convinced the break-away capacity is required. I usually just put the friction hitch on a long sling. The friction hitch portion hangs lower than where I would clip the rope in for lead protection purposes.
So, here is the debate. Won't the rope stretch both up and down in a fall? Upward pull is not a problem since the sling is long, but is downward pull a problem? Does upward stretch effectively "cancel-out" downward stretch, leaving the prusik in essentially the same position and having little impact on fall factors? I'm having a hard time visualizing exactly what's going on focusing specifically on the prusik loading in a fall.
Does my description / query make any sense?
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adatesman
Jul 14, 2010, 2:23 AM
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dugl33
Jul 14, 2010, 4:10 AM
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adatesman wrote: I'm far from an expert on RS given that I've nowhere the mileage that others here do, but here's my take on it since you replied to me....  Perhaps we're tying the friction hitches differently? I kinda prefer the rope still going through the biner and haven't found a hitch I'm confident could pass through the biner if needed (read: done midway through linked pitches). A rubber band will readily slip or break in this situation and is little bulk. A separate sling for the friction hitch, on the other hand, may or may not slip and is a lot more bulk. As for the upward/downward issue, isn't that more a matter of where you are? If its your top piece, it better be good for downward pull. If it's somewhere in the middle and has a friction hitch that doesn't slip but a piece that does, that may in turn may do unkind things to the anchor below. (EDIT- this may be the piece you're missing... when the friction hitch is below the top piece if rope stretch {upwards at that point} exceeds the runner length then this single piece {loaded in the opposite direction than intended} becomes your anchor, plus whatever tension comes from below. Personally I'd rather allow it to slip here and transfer all of the force to the anchor below, which was set to hold loading in that direction.) But truth be told I don't worry much about it. I've on occasion put a slack loop/screamer on the anchor side to deal with the possibility of pieces pulling higher up, but haven't made a habit of it since I'm of the opinion that when RS'ing falling is not an option and won't get on something I'm not confident I can do clean. And when it's a new route/not in a guidebook and the gear ends up being bunk (I climb a lot of choss), I very carefully down-rope-solo and clean what I can. Oh, and routes where I usually climb wander quite a bit, so keeping slack out of the rope may be more an issue for me than others. With a rubber band I don't have to worry so much about putting a full load in the wrong direction on a piece, but with a friction hitch it would be more of an issue seeing as it may or may not cause the piece to pop.
Yes, agreed. This is what I'm picturing as well. By long sling I mean a double length runner so I'm picturing a good 6' of travel (hitch hanging 3' below and rotating upward) before the piece gets pulled upward. Of course, with 30% dynamic stretch that may easily be possible.
One thing I'm noticing is if the bottom of the line is fixed, any point along the line is going to travel (stretch) up towards the top biner catching the fall, but the amount of the travel increases proportionally to the distance from the fixed bottom anchor point. Friction along the line through the gear will somewhat reduce this increase in travel distance.
I think I kind of answered my quandry. Thanks.
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healyje
Jul 14, 2010, 9:31 AM
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Sounds like everyone has been sorting out what works for them which is great.
I'm still using the same Eddy system and this year I have a new 10.2 Supersafe and 9.9 Maxim Apex-Milkyway which I'm going to try in place of the 9.8 Metolius Monsters I've been using as my main rope for awhile. My only complaint with the Monsters has been they don't wear as well as the Supersafes (what does).
Generally I like my ropes on the stiff side. The 10.2 Supersafes I prefer to be newish and the 9.8 Monsters a bit used and scuffed up. I'm hoping the Maxim is stiff enough to trigger the Eddy even when new, however.
I do use a Metolius microbiner on the shoulder strap of the heavily modified Metolius Portacord pack I use and it does keep things cleaner. I also don't stack the rope straight into the pack but rather use an old A5 rope bag for the rope and stick that in the pack, but there's no need to do that other than force of habit relative to restacking the rope on my part.
Nervousness about the Eddy locking is reasonable from my perspective. I haven't been overly concerned about it and it hasn't been a problem in any of the falls I've taken to date. I have, however, taken a few falls where, when I launched, I reached down and grabbed the slack side of the rope to explicitly trigger the cam.
I like the idea of the breaker bar out of the pack, but think that might be problem with when the rope curls too much and I don't like the idea of that much metal around my face. I also definitely don't like the prussik on the shoulder idea for the obvious reasons Aric states. But now that you have me thinking about the issue, I might try using a 4-6" tube of 1" webbing sewn-down over the top of the shoulder strap instead of using a retaining biner. That would still allow the rope to run relatively clean, but if the stitching was adusted to the rope diameter appropriately you should be able to tailor the friction involved fairly precisely.
----------------
Just went downstairs and played around with a 5" piece of 1" milspec with the small horizontal ribs (versus the smooth variety) and an older 9.8 Monster rop. Seems like it could work out well enough, just need to figure out the stitching such that you can still feed the rope through the webbing tube easy enough, but still have it provide just enough friction to trip the Eddy's cam. Will let you know how that works out once I try it out.
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On the rebelaying the rope and pitch lengths, Beacon Rock where I climb is basically five pitches though they vary across different parts of the rock. One of my favorite lines is 'Young Warriors' and I do it in three 60m pitches running p1&2 and p4&5 together. The other real favorite is a 'Free For All'-'Dods'-'Dastardly' linking where I do full 60m p1. To be honest I typically just alpine butterfly into an extended draw on a piece that is stable for both down and up. If I'm at a bolt I won't extend the draw. I'd mess with more suitable rebelaying if I were aid climbing, but I don't when I'm free climbing as it's still the matter of trade-offs.
A couple of other notes - one is I always tie two ajoining overhand knots in the end of the rope before restacking it so it can't go wizzing out through the Eddy on coming to the end of the rope. The other is for Eddy users. I don't know about you guys, but I use a Kong Ghost ATC for climbing with partners, a modded grigri for aid soloing, and the Eddy for free roped soloing. All that switching devices has on a couple of occasions had me thread the Eddy backwards when I was either whipped or moving fast. Of late I've developed a specific 'grip' or way of holding the Eddy when threading it to insure I check the rope is running the right way. This is it:
I'm now religious about establishing this specific grip on the Eddy in order to always remind myself it's 'thumbs up' with regard to the side that should be going to the anchor.
P.S. I like OldSalt's device; my only issue is any device I use has to have an [integral] capability to rappel easily - just set an anchor and go back down and second a pitch with no fuss or other devices of any sort.
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healyje
Jul 14, 2010, 6:17 PM
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I don't set passive pro so I never carry a nut tool, but even if I did I'd want an integral handle on any device like this. Seems to me you ought to be able to come up with one. Like I said, really like it other than that.
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oldsalt
Jul 14, 2010, 6:52 PM
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OK, I'm stumped...
I know what the term "integral handle" means, but I cannot imagine what a nut tool with one would look like ...or why it matters.
The Metolius that I use has a biner gate to hang the thing on a loop or sling. It has a curved shape that is much smoother than the rectangular shape of the Black Diamond tool. I use the Met outdoors and the BD when I go to the gym. They both work.
Please explain ... I'm really curious.
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adatesman
Jul 14, 2010, 8:10 PM
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oldsalt
Jul 14, 2010, 11:38 PM
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How embarassing.
There is no way to get a long lever on a small device. I've worked on a slide-out lever and other ideas. For me, under 7oz, hands-off-the-rope leading, small enough to stay out of the way,....
No integral lever.
Question (not ad copy): How easy is it to lower on a Gri-Gri with that relatively small handle?
No, I have never used a Gri-Gri... my money has gone into prototypes.
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healyje
Jul 15, 2010, 1:51 AM
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Oldsalt, the grigri and Eddy lower fine, though the Eddy is a bit more delicate an operation than the grigri, but on the otherhand, you can pull the Eddy handle all the way back and it relocks on the rope as opposed to screaming out rope on the grigri. I could be wrong, but I thought I'd sent you a couple of possible integral handle approaches, though I don't know shit about the metal strength details.
Maybe it wouldn't matter to most folks, or for aid climbing, but when I'm free roped soloing which is most of what I do, I climb every pitch twice and am typically moving as efficiently and flat-out as possible. Most days I lead and follow the equivalent of about 6 to 14 full-60m pitches and given I'm already old I don't have the luxury of the time to spend screwing around at the anchors with anything but a single [all-inclusive] device. I can also be a space-case and if there's another piece or device I need you can bet I'd occasionally rollup to the crag withou it.
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naitch
Jul 15, 2010, 2:39 AM
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oldsalt wrote: ...snip Question (not ad copy): How easy is it to lower on a Gri-Gri with that relatively small handle? No, I have never used a Gri-Gri... my money has gone into prototypes.
The Cinch has evan a smaller handle than the Grigri (especially in the original version) and it can lower effectively if you use the correct technique. The Cinch is quite small and light. I haven't used it for lead soloing but have used it for TR soloing. It weighs considerably less than 7 oz.
I saw a guy in Gunks using one for TR soloing for working on his .13 - no back up of any kind. Seemed to work great for him taking whippers on overhung roofs.
I'm not saying I'd use the Cinch for leading, just that I don't think the handle has to be big and add much wight to the device if designed correctly. I've been told the Cinch handle is made out of polycarbonate. material.
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