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airscape
Dec 16, 2002, 11:39 PM
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I had my very first trad experience today, not a lead or anything fancy, we just toproped and practiced gear placements...
Everything was very nice but I kept on fumbling with the biners to get gear placed, I almost let a few pieces fall. There where like maybe 10 nuts on a biner and about 3 friends on a biner... I just did not like that setup at all.
Is one piece of pro per biner too exessive??
I think maybe with nuts maybe 4 or 5 per biner?? and 1 friend per biner is better?? or will this make everything too heavy??
And also we used quickdraws to clip onto the pro, can't you rather just clip a single bentgate biner to the pro?? Wired and on tape??
I think trad is great fun.. can't wait for my first lead...
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vegastradguy
Dec 16, 2002, 11:46 PM
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Well, many people only have a few nuts/hexes per biner (small on one, medium on another, large on yet another) for both the reason you describe, and if you drop one set, you don't drop all your pro.
And, cams should have their own biner. I can't imagine having 3 cams on a biner and dropping it ($200 bucks!!!!).
Everyone has their system, but I can't say I've ever seen anyone rack their gear that way. Maybe that's how the guy/girl likes it...
"And also we used quickdraws to clip onto the pro, can't you rather just clip a single bentgate biner to the pro?? Wired and on tape??"
Um, I'm not really sure what you mean by 'wired and on tape' but you always should have a sling of sorts clipped to your pro before you clip to the rope (quickdraw, runner, whatever), both to reduce rope drag and prevent the piece from being pulled out/walk as you pass it (i'm sure there are more reasons, but these are the ones that come to mind immediately). I know you DO NOT want to clip your rope straight to the pro on a single biner, you need a runner or draw for sure.
Okay, that's all I've got. I'm sure you'll get more input on this one...
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airscape
Dec 16, 2002, 11:59 PM
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Oh yes, I forgot about the walking out bit... that is actually an obvious reason to use a draw... The on tape and wire is just the type of clip into medium on pro...
I was thinking the same thing with the cams, one per biner... the guy I climbed with had 3 per biner... I was quite afraid of letting one drop out, was very fiddly... I think I will use my own biners next time I go..
Thanks.
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stevematthys
Dec 17, 2002, 12:10 AM
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as many as i can fit
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dbrayack
Dec 17, 2002, 12:33 AM
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Well, I usually have one biner per cam, as I usually just clip that biner instead of placing a draw on it. "I use BD cams with slings already on them". I get about 8 or 9 small nuts on a biner + 4-5 medium sized nuts. Tri-Cams get 3 or 4 each. Its nice to have enough biners to keep stuff spread out.
Sometimes I run out of biners and put two cams on one rack biner.
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venezuela
Dec 17, 2002, 12:56 AM
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I mostly agree with everybody, regarding the racking cams and nuts stuff.
regarding the "Draws", I happen to think, that using open slings are better than Quickdraws, because QD are stiffer, and might push a nut out, specealliy when the best placing avaliable is crappy (it happened to me once).
My rule: unless the placement is super bomber, go with open slings: half shoulder's lenght (about the same size of large petzl quickdraw) when the line of the climb is regularly straight, and shoulder lenght when the line is not totally vertical, or the placement is good for a downward fall, but might pull the nut out if pulled straight out or up.
hope it helps..
Diego
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tradklime
Dec 17, 2002, 4:26 AM
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Cams: 1 per biner
Nuts: as many as you can manage comfortably, without fear of dropping some.
Draws: I like the long petzl draws for trad. Draws help keep the biners oriented correctly. I also carry several shoulder length slings.
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tradguy
Dec 17, 2002, 3:02 PM
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I split my set of nuts onto 2 biners - 1 for the small (8 pieces), 1 for the large (7 pieces). If I decided to carry any more than this, I would add a 3rd biner, but it seems to work well for now.
I rack cams 3 per biner for the smaller ones, 2 per biner for the larger. I just don't see any reason to waste the weight of extra biners on your rack when you're going to be clipping a draw to the piece anyway. Think about it, my 12 cams are racked on 5 biners (00-0-.5 : 1-1.25-1.5 : 1.75-2 : 2.5-3 : 3.5-4), so that's 7 fewer biners I have to carry, which is about 3/4 of a pound of extra weight. And in 6 years of trad leading I've NEVER dropped gear. I'm surprised people actually worry about that. I mean, why would you ever drop a biner full of cams??
Hexes go the same, 3 per biner for the small ones, 2 per for the large.
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billcoe_
Dec 17, 2002, 3:35 PM
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vegastradguy and venzuala pretty much answered for me. It's a great way to practice trad! When you lower, use hand signals to tell your belayer to stop (clenched fist for instance, then a wave to go.), then carefully inspect your piece/location/other potentials before you pull it.
Great practice.
Bill
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fixxervi6
Dec 17, 2002, 4:30 PM
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Nuts - 3 per beiner on larger sizes, 4 to 5 per beiner on smaller sizes, sorted by weight.
Hex - when I bother, its the same, larger sizes are 3, smaller are 4 to 5.
Cams - one per beiner, bent gate.
Open slings - doubled over for strength and size, a doubled over sling will give me the length of a quick draw, but can quickly be changed to a full length draw, great for reducing rope drag. The only time I use a quick draw is... well, I dont' think I've ever used a quick draw on trad, save it for sport routes
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lazide
Dec 17, 2002, 4:59 PM
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Another thing to think about is the type of biners you use. Nothing screws you over like racking on some funky contorted biner with no space inside of. I rack all my gear on ovals (wish I could find keylock ovals for cheap!) (and skip the BD ovals, they weigh a ton, and are weak to boot), and it makes a huge difference. Practice working the gates and stuff as well - nothing like being clumsy when your pumped to get you in trouble.
And I wouldn't bother trying to unclip a piece from a biner before you actually try to place it - try to place the sucker, and if it fits good, then unclip from that piece (if you have more than one piece per biner) from your racking biner, clip in a draw or sling and your rope, and move on.
Less pump, less effort, less risk of dropping stuff.
The only reason I don't like racking multiple cams on a biner is it just seemed to increase the CF ratio, therefore increasing the mental effort required to place your piece and move on, and hence increasing the pump. Not a big deal on slab, but on overhanging the terrain it can mean sending it vs french freeing it (hehe)
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bigwallgumbie
Dec 17, 2002, 5:16 PM
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cams: 1 per biner, neutrinos and jc's rock! nice, fast, uncluttered
nuts: 5-7 per biner, keylocks REALLY help. I'll either carry a small nut and large nut biner or just one medium biner.
As far a slings go, use 'em. quickdraws are a little faster and simplier to use and are fine for most things (depends on rock type). 2' slings are good for most everything else. Carrying them over your shoulder w/ only one biner helps save weight and time. Carry a couple w/ 2 biners "tripled" on your harness for the nuts. Some cams can be clipped straight to the biner (no sling) which is realy fast and light but requires judgement for walking etc. While you're learning (and not falling) use a lot of LONG slings to reduce ropedrag and walking till ya figure it out.
Have fun and find your own method!!!
Edit: Ignore the dude who said to use ovals (sorry man). They're heavy and a %!#@# to clip. If your short on biners use em for racking, but never for clipping the rope to unless you're really hurting for biners. Way to hard to clip. Even one fumble vs no fumbles makes a big differance.
[ This Message was edited by: bigwallgumbie on 2002-12-17 09:19 ]
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maculated
Dec 17, 2002, 5:40 PM
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Trad guy, you are one lucky mother. *I* have never dropped gear, but everyone I've climbed with has. My time is coming. Usually it's not dropping out of hand that happens, it's when you return the rest to the rack and it isn't clipped properly somehow.
As for racking gear, it's a trade off between space, weight and management. I put each cam on its own biner unless it's a double, then they go together. I have three biners of nuts (two hold two sets in order of size). Draws and slings all sit separately. It makes me wider and heavier than some, but for the most part, if there's no chimney climbing involved, I'm happy.
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wildtrail
Dec 17, 2002, 5:48 PM
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Congrats. That is a proper way to start out.
I rack my cams one per biner and I have a good 50 or 60 nuts and hexes. I have the large ones in pairs, etc. In otherwords, my three or four #13 BD Stoppers are on one biner. The large stuff goes with it's identical compainion. The smaller stuff is in the five to eight range per biner I guess.
When it comes to the climb, I use the beta to see what I need (or estimate) and then rack them one per biner, two at the most. If need be, I put a few items on my gear loops and keep the rest on the rack sling to keep things from getting tangled or confused.
Hope that helps.
Steve
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lazide
Dec 17, 2002, 6:04 PM
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And re: ovals - they really aren't bad if you are picky as to the ones you get. Omega pacific ovals are lighter and stronger than any other I have seen, and I have never had a problem clipping them when racking/unracking. I 99% use
draws or slings on placements anyways, so any pain in clipping them into the rope is generally ignored. And the hassle it saves when dealing with gear is immense.
When the weight really matters, I use iBD enduro's. Light, easy to clip, cheap, and very compact. (compact is often just as important as light when you are doing those really hard leads). If I had the cash I would probably go for those spiffy petzl spirits. $10+ per biner kinda gets me though
'biner taste is one of those things
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bigwallgumbie
Dec 17, 2002, 6:16 PM
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> I have the large ones in pairs, etc. In
> otherwords, my three or four #13 BD
> Stoppers are on one biner. The large stuff
> goes with it's identical compainion.
Good god man, 3-4 #13's!?! After about 7 years I've finally realized I never placed my #10 WC (same size, and yeah I'm a slow learner) so I barely carry ONE of em anymore. Mabey for aid but sheesh.
For whoever started this thing:
if you are going to double up you probably want to do to different (but similar sizes) on the same biner. Keeps you from dropping both your #2 tcu's and if you screw the size up you got a good chance the right size is on the biner already in your hand, saving some time and pump.
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t-dog
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Dec 18, 2002, 9:54 PM
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tradguy is pretty much right on for the distribution although I tend to rack hexes the same way I do nuts.
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diplodocus
Dec 23, 2002, 2:57 PM
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Each cams with it's own biner
Big nuts on one biner
Small nuts on one biner
Hexes #1-7 on one biner
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rprp
Dec 27, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Racking on ovals would only make sense if you put a lot of gear on each biner. But it is hard to be fast this way, and you are much more likely to drop it.
I use the Neutrinos for cams (one each) and put stoppers on small keylock biners with only 4 wires per.
I like the Rabbit Runner style runners and use mostly 3 foot ones. For "draws" I use tripled up 2 foot loops. I never carry the stiff sewn quickdraws on a gear lead.
Bigwallgumbie has a good point: if you are carrying gear you never use, stop carrying it!
And don't use a system that requires moving gear back and forth between biners all the time which will only slow you down and leave you confused.
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russman
Dec 28, 2002, 12:52 AM
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I just got the start of my Trad rack for Xmas (from my wife). I too was wondering many of these same things. I have 2 questions though...
#1) what is a "keylock" biner? lazide and bigwallgumbie both mentioned them and I have heard them before...but I guess never paid much attention to them. I was looking at my new Mgear, adn don't see any mention of them...
#2) what about buying a spool of webbing and attachign my own slings (tied in waterknots to my gear rather then either using a Qdraw or just putting a biner in the normal loop (save from walking).
Those are proably my first 2 of many questions to come. I guess I will have to start frequenting this forum now too
The Russman
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mesomorf
Dec 28, 2002, 1:03 AM
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BD Positron
http://www.bdel.com/rockclimbing/biners_positron.html
Petzl Spirit
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicFamille?id=MOUSQ#SPIRIT
Kong Helium and others
http://www.kong.it/climbin1.htm
Myself, I carry a mix of sewn and tied runners. Just keep checking those water knots.
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russman
Dec 28, 2002, 1:08 AM
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I get it on that one. I thoguth is was a totally differnt design/style. I understand...thanx for the linx
I was in the process of searching when I saw yoru post
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krustyklimber
Dec 28, 2002, 1:24 AM
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Russman,
You are one lucky dude to have such an awesome woman in your life.
Good questions, all of them where do I start...
I guess with Russman as he specifically asked me to come here...
What is a "keylock" 'biner?
A "keylock" 'biner is a 'biner that does not have a notch where the gate closes instead it has a "keyhole" in the gate that a "bulb" on the main body slips into. This way that 'biner still has the strength of a notched 'biner, but doesn't snag on stuff like a notched 'biner does.
Petzl's Spirit and Black Diamonds Positron are excellent examples of this.
What about buying a spool of webbing and attaching my own slings (tied in waterknots) to my gear rather then either using a Qdraw or just putting a biner in the normal loop (save from walking).
There are two answers for this... one is go ahead... the other is don't...
On the go ahead, here's a rule of thumb I was taught (or the rule of little finger to be more precise) if a piece of gear is smaller in diameter (say a stopper cable) you always attach to it with a carabiner.
If it is bigger in diameter than your little finger, you can sling it.
If you can help it never ever connect webbing to webbing (say girth hitching a runner to the sling on a Camalot), and never connect metal to metal (as in a 'biner chain, not a 'biner to a stopper) (I know aid climbers will though, add a second 'biner to get it turned the right direction, especially on blt ladders... but I digress).
Which gear were you hoping to do this with Russ? If it's your new cams another solution is to send them out and have full length runner (preferably Spectra) slimngs sewn on... not very practical.
I hope this answers Russmans questins now I shouls read the reast of the thread and see if I can help anybody else?
If you guys ever need me to answer just PM me like Russman did.
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-12-27 17:25 ]
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russman
Dec 28, 2002, 1:32 AM
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I understand. So far. Still new and only have 3 pieces and a nut tool so far.
4,5,and 6 WC rocks. Just got the new Mgear today and was looking at the gear and prices and "full set" prices and plan on goign to our climbing gym this weekend for some needed holiday release...and will talk to the owners and find out more info...hopefully will buy most of it thru them as well as wifes new Harness and hopefully her shoes...and proaably my new shoes...and my new rack....man they will be able to stay alive next year just off us
Thanx for the input Jeff and mesomorf
I am sure I will PM you more and start frequenting here more to learn adn ask.
The Russman
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skywalker
Jan 3, 2003, 8:10 PM
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I agree with most of the beta...1 cam per biner and stoppers distributed on 2 seperate biners. One word of caution on having large stoppers on one biner and small on the other opens the possibility of dropping all of one size. I once dropped my small stoppers during a lead and I was soooo 'jonesed'. I had to finish the route (2 more pitches) with out small stoppers, not good. I now have a variety of sizes on each of the two biners. basically a set on each. Now if i drop one i still have a variety of stoppers.
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