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yodadave
Aug 30, 2010, 11:51 AM
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ok so i went rope soloing for the first time the other day. TR setup with a fixed line and inline eights every 7 ft or so. I was clipping with 2 draws straight from my loop and would probably switch to lockers in the future. I stayed well with in my solo ability and really enjoyed it. I don't have the cash to go get a device right now for soloing, especially since they all seem to cost more than i've spent on my Frankenrack in the last 6 years.
So my question is what kind of mistakes/problems should i watch for if i continue using the above method? Any real common problems? Is there a major reason why people go straight to a silent partner? Also inline eights or alpine butterflies or something different?
PS i know i'm gunna die 
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cornstateclimber
Aug 30, 2010, 1:21 PM
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as long as your using a dynamic rope, i suppose that youd be ok, just dont take falls toward the top and dont let your rope extend over sharp edges. and i would use a beefy rope. its not the best method, especially if your taking many falls, which you said you were staying well within your range, so i assume your not. you dont need a silent partner. thats an expensive piece of gear. and designed for lead climbing solo. you can get by with multiple units, that cost way less. i have been using the petzl Rescuescender, and it works great. i have the end of the rope slightly weighted and the device glides smoothly along the rope. ive been using it since i first started climbing, and consider it one the best buys ive had
(This post was edited by cornstateclimber on Aug 30, 2010, 1:23 PM)
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dingus
Aug 30, 2010, 2:00 PM
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cornstateclimber wrote: and dont let your rope extend over sharp edges.
You drop 6 feet onto a knot and saw your rope over an edge it could be very very bad news.
Just keep in mind... what you were doing is top roping in one sense, but with potential force factors far exceeding your typical top rope set up. The sharp edge thing bears considerable thought, every time you set this rig up.
DMT
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yodadave
Aug 30, 2010, 2:04 PM
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ok, great reminder on the sharp edges as i don't TR except for things like this.
Anyone want to weigh in on butterflies vs 8's?
Also are the FFs greater because it is not a running belay? Or some other physics thing that will hurt my brain?
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dingus
Aug 30, 2010, 2:10 PM
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No FF is 'how much rope out' in relation to 'how far you fall.'
So the closer you get to the top, the higher the potential fall factor. If you were just one last move from your anchor and fell, you'd fall 7 feet onto your last knot, with that same 7 feet of rope to absorb the fall = FF1? Quite a jolt no matter how you measure it.
DMT
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dingus
Aug 30, 2010, 2:15 PM
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A Chris Falkenstein photo showing some climber's mini-trax set up. This is how I do self belayed top roping. I got my mini's at about 50 bucks each, on sale.
I have used it for a few hundred pitches now and have a high confidence in the rig. Other climbers, equally or more experienced, have reported some quirks with the use if mini trax devices for this purpose so please don't take my use as an endorsement. You have to figure this out on your own. I don't like the idea of taking top rope drops on solo tr's, myself. I make sure that my top device will engage with virtually no downward drop at all, other than rope stretch. The chest harness rig is what insures this.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Aug 30, 2010, 2:15 PM)
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dan2see
Aug 30, 2010, 2:27 PM
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A top-rope "anchor" is at the top. Typically the end of the rope is tied somewhere near the ground, ala sleeping belayer. The catch will be as soft as anything. If you fall just before you clip your top anchor on a 60-foot route, the FF will be 7/67, or just 0.105. Even less, because your last knot would be as much as 5 feet below the clip.
But do you tie your rope to the anchor on top? In that case, the same fall would be 1.0.
When anybody asks me what kind of knot to tie, I always say "8 on a bight" because it's so easy and safe.
But the Butterfly is better for a 3-way load, and in your case you are pre-tying them, so I'd say "do it'.
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billcoe_
Sep 1, 2010, 3:31 PM
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Knots will work fine for you. I've done this, but I clip the climbing rope directly to my harness - skip the quickdraws.
I have 3 lockers, I clip to the top and drop the bottom one once you have all 3 full. grab the bottom one and put it on top. I only do this when my buddies cancel on me last min. so it's not seen too much action, but it works fine. Sometimes I shake my head as I'm out clipping knots (I just use the figure 8 on a bight) as I own lots of solo devices. I consider a fall more doing this like a lead fall, so I don't go out and dog routes. Fact is, I don't like falling at all.
Good advice on not having your rope over an edge too.
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carabiner96
Sep 1, 2010, 3:42 PM
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dingus wrote: A Chris Falkenstein photo showing some climber's mini-trax set up. This is how I do self belayed top roping. I got my mini's at about 50 bucks each, on sale. [img]http://www.supertopo.com/photos/1/71/138637_31022_L.jpg[/img] I have used it for a few hundred pitches now and have a high confidence in the rig. Other climbers, equally or more experienced, have reported some quirks with the use if mini trax devices for this purpose so please don't take my use as an endorsement. You have to figure this out on your own. I don't like the idea of taking top rope drops on solo tr's, myself. I make sure that my top device will engage with virtually no downward drop at all, other than rope stretch. The chest harness rig is what insures this. DMT
Right now I just use one mini, I thought when folks used two, each was on a separate strand of rope in case of the very minute chance of rope shear at the point of device? Not that I would t=be taking a 'fall' like that on my mini. Right now I use one on a single strand, most folks around here don't back it up either, usually (I guess) they're just lapping easy climbs. I've tried it not backed up, but definitely feel comfier running a carabiner to stopper knots on a second strand (much like the op was describing, clip knot, climb up, unclip first knot, clip second.)
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majid_sabet
Sep 1, 2010, 3:44 PM
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dingus wrote: cornstateclimber wrote: and dont let your rope extend over sharp edges. You drop 6 feet onto a knot and saw your rope over an edge it could be very very bad news. Just keep in mind... what you were doing is top roping in one sense, but with potential force factors far exceeding your typical top rope set up. The sharp edge thing bears considerable thought, every time you set this rig up. DMT
an extra report in I&A
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dingus
Sep 1, 2010, 3:47 PM
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I've never seen anyone use two ropes like you mention. Not saying it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it.
Angry posted something about his use of a mini trax that failed to catch a fall for 10 feet or more. He said at the time he was going to stop using it.
The idea of the 2nd trax is simple - its there to catch if the first one fails to do so.
I love the rig. I can set it up in a crag, rap down and do lap after lap. It takes less than a minute for me to switch from rappel to belay mode (at the bottom) and another 30 seconds or so to go on rap, at the top.
The 2nd trax gives me a lot of peace of mind. Trusting my life to that one cam in one trax gives me the willies!
Cheers
DMT
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yodadave
Sep 1, 2010, 11:40 PM
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Thanks for all the info, lots to think about, i'll reply in detail later.
It is good to know others are rope soloing for less than $250
Cheers
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psprings
Sep 1, 2010, 11:45 PM
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Isn't there a method of using clove hitches to rope solo? I swear I've heard of one... which would bypass any extra gear at all.
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yodadave
Sep 2, 2010, 12:36 PM
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hey alpinismo, i was more talking about the inevitability of death coming to us all than saying i intend to kill myself with unsafe practices.
Thanks for your concern for my mother and loved ones though.
Also a good point that if i go for a traxion none of the other Q's matter
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yodadave
Sep 2, 2010, 12:47 PM
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this may be a mute point if i buy a traxion but if i understand you correctly.....
then if i set up a top rope and anchored one end to the base of the climb and went up the other strand then i would be a lot safer. Bare in mind i'm purely asking to clarify not because i'm headed out to do this. Also this explains to me why it is so imperative not to fall on the belay of a multipitch.
edited to add the following
i've looked around a bit more now and found a wide range of devices recommended, from BASIC, grigri, cinch, croll, ropeman, etc It does seem that the mini trax is the most commonly mentioned. The teeth scare me a bit and a Basic or a ropeman look preferable to me but maybe i can get some advice at my local gear store and rig a couple of different devices up, to see which runs smoothest etc
(This post was edited by yodadave on Sep 2, 2010, 12:57 PM)
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dingus
Sep 2, 2010, 12:49 PM
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yodadave wrote: Thanks for all the info, lots to think about, i'll reply in detail later. It is good to know others are rope soloing for less than $250 Cheers
Last point - (probably should go without saying but what the hell): the use of mini trax or even periodic knots on the cord... for solo climbing, means the solo climber has to double and triple check everything.
And then monitor the whole works on a continuous basis while climbing. There isn't anyone looking over your shoulder.
DMT
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dingus
Sep 2, 2010, 12:53 PM
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yodadave wrote: this may be a mute point if i buy a traxion but if i understand you correctly..... then if i set up a top rope and anchored one end to the base of the climb and went up the other strand then i would be a lot safer. Bare in mind i'm purely asking to clarify not because i'm headed out to do this. Also this explains to me why it is so imperative not to fall on the belay of a multipitch.
I take it you mean the rope is anchored to the base, runs up through a master point for the top anchor and then back down to you. Its not tied to the top anchor but rather runs through it like a normal top rope rig?
Physics geeks will have to comment - on the one hand it avoids the FF1 factor fall, it would seem, yes. On the other, what forces that are applied to the top anchor will be doubled.
So it seems like a trade off - I don't know if its a good trade or not.
There you go... "I don't know." How often do you hear that one, hehe?
DMT
ps. and its 'moot', not mute. Moot is 'beside the point', 'mute' is 'can't speak.' Capice?
(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 2, 2010, 12:53 PM)
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yodadave
Sep 2, 2010, 1:25 PM
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i wish i could claim this was all a clever troll to get dingus to say "i don't know" sadly i can't.
I appreciate all the advice and the english lesson
Cheers
My wedding band is a great reminder to triple check everything and my paranoia helps me too
Risk management FTW
(This post was edited by yodadave on Sep 2, 2010, 3:54 PM)
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markc
Sep 2, 2010, 1:35 PM
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I'm still working out my system for this, but I've tied an 8 on a bight in the middle of my rope and anchored that at the top. I tie alpine butterflies every 6-7 feet down one strand. On the unknotted strand, I use an auto-assist belay device. I have two slings girth-hitched to my harness, and I leapfrog those up the backup knots. I've used lockers, which involves a small amount of fussing. (Clip and lock the upper knot before releasing the lower knot.)
It's almost identical to a tech tip from Climbing.
Friends have just used knots in the rope as described. I figure I already own the belay device and it keeps falls short.
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scottek67
Sep 2, 2010, 3:24 PM
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great illustration!
I really like the part... "jug and foot loop ready to go"
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healyje
Sep 2, 2010, 4:09 PM
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The issue is better conceived in terms of a backup - either two minitraxs on one rope or one minitrax and a second backup rope. The principle reason for the latter is that minitraxs have been known to come apart and aren't really a reliable solo device one it's own on a single rope.
The two-strand approach would not be my preferred solution, the two device one would.
Also, TR soloing on a classic top rope setup with one side anchored sucks due to rope stretch. If you can reach a master point then just anchor a single strand or two strands via a midpoint knot.
P.S. It would be helpful in terms of RC.com search to reserve the term 'rope solo' or 'roped solo' for lead rope soloing and use the terms 'aid soloing' and 'TR soloing' for those activities.
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