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notapplicable
Sep 20, 2010, 2:27 PM
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I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go? Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand. If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style. Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation. Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years. Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope. Jay With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea? Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times.
I don't use a GriGri so I have no dog in this fight but you and I both know that "the instructions" are only ever half the story.
In climbing, a lot of shit thats dangerous in the hands of a nOOb is perfectly safe, if not preferable, in the hands of an experienced climber.
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I_do
Sep 20, 2010, 2:55 PM
Post #52 of 142
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notapplicable wrote: I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go? Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand. If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style. Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation. Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years. Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope. Jay With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea? Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times. I don't use a GriGri so I have no dog in this fight but you and I both know that "the instructions" are only ever half the story. In climbing, a lot of shit thats dangerous in the hands of a nOOb is perfectly safe, if not preferable, in the hands of an experienced climber.
Well in this case you have two options:
give slack quickly by taking your hand off the rope (which causes shit like what started this thread).
Give slack quickly while keeping your hand on the brake side of the rope which possibly could have saved a dog here.
Now I'm not saying method 1 is total suicide (it's done a lot and usually doesn't end bad) I just think there's a safer option with no drawbacks.
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jrathfon
Sep 20, 2010, 3:20 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm
As a climber from the red:
The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.
Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.
I've been at too many crags at the Red that are a over-crowded (mainly from college user groups, not necessarily outing clubs, just groups from colleges), large social scene at the base where climber/belayer communication is not possible. And I am definitely the ornery "older" (pushing thirty!! egad.) cuss who yells at the whipper snappers to shut up when I can't hear my climber.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 20, 2010, 3:39 PM
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jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.
None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.
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jrathfon
Sep 20, 2010, 3:53 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating. None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.
Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. She was in the "Figure 3" position when the climber was falling, had she been watching she wouldn't have been in that position. I'm not justifying the use of the "classic" technique, I don't use it, nor do I feel others should. Yes I sport climb, yes I trad climb, yes I use a technique to quick feed which doesnt require me to let go of the brake hand. In the end, even using the "classic" technique, the accident could have been avoided had she been watching the climber. Either or both changes could have prevented the accident. So I agree, better technique could have prevented the accident, both belaying (with the "new" technique), but even more fundamentally, just looking up.
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redlude97
Sep 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
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jrathfon wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating. None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri. Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. She was in the "Figure 3" position when the climber was falling, had she been watching she wouldn't have been in that position. I'm not justifying the use of the "classic" technique, I don't use it, nor do I feel others should. Yes I sport climb, yes I trad climb, yes I use a technique to quick feed which doesnt require me to let go of the brake hand. In the end, even using the "classic" technique, the accident could have been avoided had she been watching the climber. Either or both changes could have prevented the accident. So I agree, better technique could have prevented the accident, both belaying (with the "new" technique), but even more fundamentally, just looking up.
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jrathfon
Sep 20, 2010, 4:53 PM
Post #57 of 142
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redlude97 wrote: jrathfon wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating. None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri. Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. She was in the "Figure 3" position when the climber was falling, had she been watching she wouldn't have been in that position. I'm not justifying the use of the "classic" technique, I don't use it, nor do I feel others should. Yes I sport climb, yes I trad climb, yes I use a technique to quick feed which doesnt require me to let go of the brake hand. In the end, even using the "classic" technique, the accident could have been avoided had she been watching the climber. Either or both changes could have prevented the accident. So I agree, better technique could have prevented the accident, both belaying (with the "new" technique), but even more fundamentally, just looking up. She wasn't using the "classic" technique because that technique explicitly requires you to only hold the cam while actively feeding rope quickly for a clip. Since she "didn't know how it happened" it sounds more like she was being lazy and holding the cam down for extensive periods of time which is not the "classic" technique at all, which uses a two handed technique for feeding rope to an advancing climber.
Maybe you should read the entire RRC thread before posting. What you are quoting is heresay. And she WAS holding the cam open for a quick clip, the problem was she hadn't confirmed that visually.
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spikeddem
Sep 20, 2010, 6:15 PM
Post #58 of 142
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majid_sabet wrote: Gri Gri= Condom the consequences can be sever
Gem.
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spikeddem
Sep 20, 2010, 6:20 PM
Post #59 of 142
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I_do wrote: notapplicable wrote: I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go? Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand. If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style. Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation. Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years. Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope. Jay With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea? Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times. I don't use a GriGri so I have no dog in this fight but you and I both know that "the instructions" are only ever half the story. In climbing, a lot of shit thats dangerous in the hands of a nOOb is perfectly safe, if not preferable, in the hands of an experienced climber. Well in this case you have two options: give slack quickly by taking your hand off the rope (which causes shit like what started this thread). Give slack quickly while keeping your hand on the brake side of the rope which possibly could have saved a dog here. Now I'm not saying method 1 is total suicide (it's done a lot and usually doesn't end bad) I just think there's a safer option with no drawbacks.
Couldn't agree more. There's no fucking way that the "classic" method gives out slack any faster than the new method. If anything, it is faster, as the rope is angled towards the gri-gri in a way that produces less resistance to feeding. It is LITERALLY as simple as the "either or" that I bolded above.
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jt512
Sep 20, 2010, 6:31 PM
Post #60 of 142
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I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go? Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand. If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style. Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation. Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years. Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope. Jay With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?
I have anal safety gripes? Name one.
I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner.
Jay
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jt512
Sep 20, 2010, 6:49 PM
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jrathfon wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating. None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri. Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique.
Are you sure she was using the "classic" technique? Even using the classic classic technique, where your thumb and index finger aren't encircling the rope, you only have to slide your hand down a couple of inches to put it back on the rope. That's the only reason that this method can be considered acceptable. I've never heard of an accident due to using this technique. In almost every grigri accident that I have heard of the belayer was using a more dangerous home-grown technique to hold open the cam.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 20, 2010, 6:49 PM)
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kachoong
Sep 20, 2010, 7:04 PM
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spikeddem wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Gri Gri= Condom the consequences can be sever Gem.
Yes! Don't use a Gri-Gri and you could get pregnant.... or worse... Herpies!
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jrathfon
Sep 20, 2010, 7:08 PM
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jt512 wrote: jrathfon wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating. None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri. Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. Are you sure she was using the "classic" technique? Even using the classic classic technique, where your thumb and index finger aren't encircling the rope, you only have to slide your hand down a couple of inches to put it back on the rope. That's the only reason that this method can be considered acceptable. I've never heard of an accident due to using this technique. In almost every grigri accident that I have heard of the belayer was using a more dangerous home-grown technique to hold open the cam. Jay
I think only she could be sure about that one, but as far as closer witnesses say, she knew the classic technique.
Being a little familiar with this route and this wall, bolts are spaced pretty decently, I believe the climber was looking at a ~25 fall, and really only a quick moment of the cam being held down brought him the last 20 ft to the ground. Had the belayer seen the climber taking the fall, her hand wouldn't have been on the cam for quick feeding slack, since she was (theoretically) using hte "classic" technique.
Basically my point is "proper" "classic" technique, while not watching the climber = FAIL, argue all the nitty gritty you like.
As for other gri-gri accidents, most of them seem to be the clamp-the-cam-down-in-fear-using-the-classic-method type "failures".
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socalclimber
Sep 20, 2010, 7:15 PM
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jrathfon wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating. None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri. Right, but the fact of the matter is:
She didn't know what she was doing. Her partner ended up on the ground, and the dog is dead.
The saddest part is that the dog was the only intelligent one there...
RIP Fluffy.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 20, 2010, 7:18 PM)
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 20, 2010, 7:21 PM
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socalclimber wrote: jrathfon wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: jrathfon wrote: robdotcalm wrote: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284 Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog. I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell. Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery. Cheers, Rob.calm As a climber from the red: The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode. Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating. None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri. Right, but the fact of the matter is: She didn't know what she was doing. Her partner ended up on the ground, and the dog is dead. The saddest part is that the dog was the only intelligent one there... RIP FluffySpot.
fixied.
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socalclimber
Sep 20, 2010, 7:39 PM
Post #67 of 142
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There is only one of two possibilities here:
1) You're post was in jest.
2) You honestly take this shit to heart because you are completely clueless.
If you firmly believe that #2 was a reason to back up that belay devices fail, then I would strongly suggest you make very sure to wear a helmet before you get out of bed in the mornings. You really should not be allowed outdoors without proper supervision.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Sep 20, 2010, 7:49 PM
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It was in jest. 
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bearbreeder
Sep 20, 2010, 9:26 PM
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is she hawt? ... that would go a long way to explain why certain people are makng excuses for her ... or why they would let her belay them
once a person has clipped the 2nd bolt (and arguably the 1st) ... they should not ground on a sports climb
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I_do
Sep 20, 2010, 9:29 PM
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jt512 wrote: I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go? Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand. If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style. Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation. Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years. Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope. Jay With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea? I have anal safety gripes? Name one. I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner. Jay
Well the safety gripe thing is not really relevant but
I personally think i.e. your views on using a gri-gri for multipitch could be classified as such. And there is more examples where lets just say you hold a very strong opinion on what is safe or not.
What I don't understand is how someone who appears to be very safety conscious thinks it's a good idea to let go of the brake strand if not necessary. If the girl would have looked at the climber it would probably not have been an accident. However, with the "new"method the chances of catching an unforseen fall increase, without any cost other then learning the new way (which is quite easy if you're used to a gri-gri).
So considering the costs of the new benefits (very low) I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Sure the chance of it making a difference is small but if it does it makes a huge difference.
Cheers
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granite_grrl
Sep 20, 2010, 9:50 PM
Post #71 of 142
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Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
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notapplicable wrote: chossmonkey wrote: notapplicable wrote: chossmonkey wrote: I use a grigri 99% of the time OMG, on the gear routes too?!?! You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons. Partners are disposable! GG PM'd!
I'm a wily one!
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j_ung
Sep 20, 2010, 10:07 PM
Post #72 of 142
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
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jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go? Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand. If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style. Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation. Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years. Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope. Jay
Jay, I think it was you who I once saw mention a sort of modified classic method. Whoever it was said to squeeze the cam with the pinky and ring finger of the brake hand, while the middle finger, index finger and thumb are still on the brake. I've tried this method since, and I have to say, it works like an f-ing charm. It's easy to control and the brake hand (60% of it, anyway) stays on at all times.
I've tried the "new method," too, and frankly, I think it's crap for all but shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter.
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spikeddem
Sep 20, 2010, 10:07 PM
Post #73 of 142
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Registered: Aug 27, 2007
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kachoong wrote: spikeddem wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Gri Gri= Condom the consequences can be sever Gem. Yes! Don't use a Gri-Gri and you could get pregnant.... or worse... Herpies!
Or worse....sever. 
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vegastradguy
Sep 20, 2010, 10:20 PM
Post #74 of 142
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Registered: Aug 28, 2002
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j_ung wrote: I've tried the "new method," too, and frankly, I think it's crap for all but shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter.
arent shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter the only ropes worth climbing on anyway?
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jt512
Sep 20, 2010, 10:28 PM
Post #75 of 142
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: I_do wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go? Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand. If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style. Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation. Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years. Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope. Jay With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea? I have anal safety gripes? Name one. I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner. Jay What I don't understand is how someone who appears to be very safety conscious thinks it's a good idea to let go of the brake strand if not necessary.
The reason that the "classic" method can be performed safely is that your hand is at most an inch away from the brake strand, and it is a simple matter to just slide your hand down the device and back onto the rope. You never let go and regrasp anything.
Additionally, the fingers that are holding the cam open should be placed on the middle of the cam lever, where they have little leverage. It's enough to hold the cam open to pull out rope, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to prevent the cam from engaging in response to the force of a lead fall. Like I said earlier, I've never heard of an accident caused by using this technique. There is weak evidence that this might have been the case in the present accident, but I'm skeptical. The "classic" technique is rare, in my experience, whereas far more dangerous methods of "blocking" the cam are common.
Frankly, the argument is practically moot anyway, since the "classic" technique can be performed with the thumb and first one or two fingers kept around the rope.
In reply to: If the girl would have looked at the climber it would probably not have been an accident. However, with the "new"method the chances of catching an unforseen fall increase, without any cost other then learning the new way (which is quite easy if you're used to a gri-gri).
First of all, I'm skeptical of the claim that inattention was the most important cause of this accident. How can a belayer be so inattentive that they fail to notice 50 feet of rope running through their hands? I think it is more likely that the belayer did see the fall (perhaps not immediately), reacted improperly to it and defeated the cam. Again, owing to lack of leverage, this is difficult to do if you're employing the classic method correctly, which further leads me to believe that she was not.
That said, it is completely inexcusable to not be paying close attention to your climber while they are clipping. How else can the belayer possibly know how much slack to pay out and how to properly react to a fall when the leader might have two armfuls of rope pulled out?
In reply to: So considering the costs of the new benefits (very low) I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Sure the chance of it making a difference is small but if it does it makes a huge difference. Cheers
I'm not convinced that the new method is actually safer than the old, provided the old method is correctly employed. With the new method I don't feel like I've got a secure grip on the rope while I'm pressing the cam down with my thumb. You can't actually hold the rope while pulling slack out (maybe with a thin enough or slick enough rope you can). In fact, I find that any friction between my hand and the rope makes it harder and slower to pull rope out. Consequently, I have a very loose grip on the rope (really not a grip at all) involving mainly my weakest two fingers, and not involving my thumb at all. That's not enough of a grip to guarantee that the cam will actuate in the event of a fall. I'm not convinced that if the rope starts to run that I could maintain control of it long enough to get my whole brake hand on the rope. In fact, I'm not convinced that the rope cannot by yanked out of my hand entirely.
In contrast, with the classic method, I've almost always got at least my thumb and one or two of my strongest fingers around the rope. Even if the rope starts to run, it's not going to get jerked out my hand, and I can easily slide my hand down the rope a couple inches to get my whole brake hand on it. The only time I ever have no part of my brake hand on the rope is when the rope is so worn, dirty, or thick that I have to move my hand further up the lever in order to squeeze the cam hard enough to get rope out. Even then, sliding my hand back down on to the rope is quick, simple, and secure; and, if the rope is that difficult to get through the grigri, the grigri is going to lock up without assistance, anyway.
Jay
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