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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 8:08 PM
Post #26 of 134
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You have to be kidding me?
Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.
I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 8:15 PM)
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 8:22 PM
Post #27 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.
I'm shocked that someone who has been in the sport as long as you has such a misunderstanding of sport climbing, even if you don't do much of it yourself. Here is the definition of sport climbing from wikipedia:
"Sport climbing is a style of rock climbing that relies on permanent anchors fixed to the rock, especially bolts, for protection, in contrast with traditional climbing, in which the rock is typically devoid of fixed anchors, and climbers must place removable protection as they climb. Since the need to place protection is virtually eliminated, sport climbing places an emphasis on gymnastic ability, strength and endurance, as opposed to adventure, risk and self-sufficiency. Since artificial means are used primarily for safety rather than to make upward progress, sport climbing is considered a form of free climbing."
The whole point of sport climbing is to minimize the need to fiddle with gear so that the climber is free to perform climbing movement at his physical limit. You should try it sometime. It's pretty fun.
Jay
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kennoyce
Sep 24, 2010, 8:25 PM
Post #28 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing. I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.
I consider myself more of a trad climber than a sport climber, and I agree with you that dealing with the gear is an essential part of TRAD climbing. Sport climbing on the other hand is about the difficulty, the moves, and pushing yourself physically without having to deal with all of the gear.
Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.
edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.
(This post was edited by kennoyce on Sep 24, 2010, 8:28 PM)
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 8:31 PM
Post #29 of 134
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jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing. I'm shocked that someone who has been in the sport as long as you has such a misunderstanding of sport climbing, even if you don't do much of it yourself. Here is the definition of sport climbing from wikipedia: "Sport climbing is a style of rock climbing that relies on permanent anchors fixed to the rock, especially bolts, for protection, in contrast with traditional climbing, in which the rock is typically devoid of fixed anchors, and climbers must place removable protection as they climb. Since the need to place protection is virtually eliminated, sport climbing places an emphasis on gymnastic ability, strength and endurance, as opposed to adventure, risk and self-sufficiency. Since artificial means are used primarily for safety rather than to make upward progress, sport climbing is considered a form of free climbing." The whole point of sport climbing is to minimize the need to fiddle with gear so that the climber is free to perform climbing movement at his physical limit. You should try it sometime. It's pretty fun. Jay
That's what soloing is for.
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 8:34 PM
Post #30 of 134
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kennoyce wrote: socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing. I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground. Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws. edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.
Obviously the route is over your head...
Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 8:36 PM
Post #31 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: kennoyce wrote: socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing. I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground. Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws. edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it. Obviously the route is over your head... Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...
You need to get out of J Tree once in a while. ;)
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 8:38 PM)
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 8:38 PM
Post #32 of 134
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jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: kennoyce wrote: socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing. I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground. Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws. edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it. Obviously the route is over your head... Maybe a pair of aiders is in order... You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;) Jay
I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 8:40 PM
Post #33 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: kennoyce wrote: socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing. I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground. Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws. edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it. Obviously the route is over your head... Maybe a pair of aiders is in order... You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;) Jay I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.
If you're getting your ideas about sport climbing from Holcomb Valley, you're getting a really skewed view of the subject.
Jay
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 8:45 PM
Post #34 of 134
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Naw, just a fun place outta the summer heat to clip bolts and not die.
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kennoyce
Sep 24, 2010, 8:49 PM
Post #35 of 134
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jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: kennoyce wrote: socalclimber wrote: You have to be kidding me? Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing. I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground. Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws. edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it. Obviously the route is over your head... Maybe a pair of aiders is in order... You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;) Jay I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer. If you're getting your ideas about sport climbing from Holcomb Valley, you're getting a really skewed view of the subject. Jay
Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb).
socalclimber wrote: Obviously the route is over your head... Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...
It really has nothing to do with being over your head or not, but you are correct that a pair of aiders is about the only way to remove draws from very overhung routes.
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dynosore
Sep 24, 2010, 8:58 PM
Post #36 of 134
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jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads So there not stronger. ?? Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger." Jay
Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 9:00 PM
Post #37 of 134
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"Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). "
I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.
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kennoyce
Sep 24, 2010, 9:05 PM
Post #38 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: "Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). " I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.
I'm just trying to point out that the only "sport climbing" area you've been to recently is Holcomb where nothing is overhung. Until you try climbing something that is truly very overhung you will never understand the importance of perma-draws. I am implying that you have never climbed anything that is severely overhung which may be incorrect, but I doubt it.
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majid_sabet
Sep 24, 2010, 9:10 PM
Post #39 of 134
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this is nothing new however, sport climbers have a tendency to leave QD every where they go and overall,they have a bad reputation on inspecting their TR system.
Inspect your lifeline and equipment every time you climb.
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kennoyce
Sep 24, 2010, 9:16 PM
Post #40 of 134
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majid_sabet wrote: this is nothing new however, sport climbers have a tendency to leave QD every where they go and overall,they have a bad reputation on inspecting their TR system. Inspect your lifeline and equipment every time you climb.
This is true. What we should take away from this accident is that we need to inspect perma-draws before we trust our lives to them. Just take a half a second and look at the draw you are clipping before the rope is blocking your view of the possible sharp edges. If it's not sharp clip it and go, if it is sharp, place your own draw.
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 9:31 PM
Post #42 of 134
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kennoyce wrote: socalclimber wrote: "Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). " I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it. I'm just trying to point out that the only "sport climbing" area you've been to recently is Holcomb where nothing is overhung. Until you try climbing something that is truly very overhung you will never understand the importance of perma-draws. I am implying that you have never climbed anything that is severely overhung which may be incorrect, but I doubt it.
Yup, this is true. Actually, from that photo I'm now convinced the perma-draw is a really bad idea. I've never seen caribiner wear that severe before.
I can only imagine what other time bombs like that one are out there. And if this is no big deal in the totally rad "sport climbing" world, you can have it.
That level of wear is just insane. How could nobody have noticed that?
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majid_sabet
Sep 24, 2010, 9:36 PM
Post #43 of 134
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if sport climbers are too lazy to inspect their life support system, i would suggest replacing the top biner with heavy duty steel biner or steel shackle or something like that so it could last longer.
Still , you need to inspect your gear every time and disengage the autopilot mentality while climbing. There are no such thing as "safe climbing environment" and all it takes is one doo doo to end up six feet under dirt.
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 9:40 PM
Post #44 of 134
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majid_sabet wrote: if sport climbers are too lazy to inspect their life support system, i would suggest replacing the top biner with heavy duty steel biner or steel shackle or something like that so it could last longer.
Try and keep up, Majid. It's not the top biners that are the problem. It's the lower ones, especially (probably) the first.
Jay
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 9:43 PM
Post #45 of 134
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You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.
Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.
I am speaking about the lower biner.
Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 9:45 PM)
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 9:48 PM
Post #46 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear. Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea. I am speaking about the lower biner. Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?
They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.
Jay
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 9:52 PM
Post #47 of 134
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jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear. Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea. I am speaking about the lower biner. Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years? They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly. Jay
Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.
Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.
Majid has made some very solid points here. It is unbelievable to me that nobody noticed this long ago, or did anything about it.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 9:53 PM)
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 9:55 PM
Post #48 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear. Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea. I am speaking about the lower biner. Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years? They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly. Jay Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before. Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.
I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out.
Jay
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 10:00 PM
Post #49 of 134
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jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear. Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea. I am speaking about the lower biner. Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years? They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly. Jay Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before. Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that. I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out. Jay
Well that seems like a reasonable idea.
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 10:03 PM
Post #50 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: socalclimber wrote: You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear. Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea. I am speaking about the lower biner. Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years? They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly. Jay Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before. Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that. I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out. Jay Well that seems like a reasonable idea.
Unfortunately, it only works at crags where the local climbing population is sophisticated enough to understand that the biners aren't "booty," again ruling out most of SoCal.
Jay
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