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shimanilami
Dec 8, 2010, 6:02 PM
Post #26 of 48
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billl7 wrote: shimanilami wrote: ... drape the line through a sling with increasing lengths of "loop" with each pass. If you do this right, there will be no need to flip anything over, and there will be no opportunity for CF's to form. This takes practice, but it works. eeewwwwww ... I've been doing this but still also flipping. Going to try it without flipping next time. Thanks! I should mention that the belayer has to take care to only pull the shortest loop up. If he drags another loop through the sling, then things can get messy.
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socalclimber
Dec 8, 2010, 6:20 PM
Post #27 of 48
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"There is nothing wrong with untying and switching ends. It is a useful tool in fast efficient climbing. " If you find tying a knot difficult then I would start questioning the rest of your anchor and gear. It certainly isn't slower if you do it properly. I regularly climb with 3s and I move damn fast up a cliff. Avoiding CFs is key. The number one rule in fast climbing with multiple ropes is don't fuck with the rope stacks. If that means swapping ends the you do it. " I'm not real comfortable with this advice to a beginner. First off, fast and efficient climbing and beginner climber is a joke. They are not going to be either. Period. They are going to make every mistake in the book. Telling them that it is ok to untie from the rope is a less than optimal approach. If it's the last resort because the rope is so cluster fucked there's no other choice, I can deal with that. You do not want to teach new climbers FAST ANYTHING. It will only lead to trouble. What they need to learn is that efficiency and speed will follow once basics are learned and mastered. As far as not messing with the rope stacking and swapping ends as the solution, I have to disagree, especially with new climbers. Beginners need to learn how to deal with these issues. They need to learn how to stack the rope and swap leads without swapping ends. The rest will come later. I've climbed for a long time and almost never untie and can move plenty fast on multi pitch routes. Be careful about preaching your own practices to beginners. Teach basics. Basic knots, basic anchors, basic rope skills etc. While well intentioned, these topics you are attempting to embrace the values of are lethal in the hands of beginning climbers. To the OP, good questions!
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notapplicable
Dec 8, 2010, 7:45 PM
Post #28 of 48
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sp115 wrote: But you know, I'm actually surpised to see that the last three posts all are from people who have swapped ends. I've just never done it, never heard it recommended, and never seen anyone do it. In most cases people are either building their anchor with a whateverolette or they are swapping leads so it never comes in to play. If you use the rope in the anchor on a regular basis though, you will eventually find yourself swapping ends. At some point your partner is not going to want to or be able to lead the next pitch and "rebuilding" a 3-4 point gear anchor with the other end of the rope is slow and a recipe for clusterfuckage. If someone is uncomfortable with that eventuality it's easy to avoid, just use a dedicated anchor rig. As I'm sure you do.
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notapplicable
Dec 8, 2010, 7:47 PM
Post #29 of 48
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socalclimber wrote: I'm not real comfortable with this advice to a beginner. I agree and thats why I initially left it alone but once the cat was out of the bag...
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sp115
Dec 8, 2010, 8:34 PM
Post #30 of 48
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notapplicable wrote: sp115 wrote: But you know, I'm actually surpised to see that the last three posts all are from people who have swapped ends. I've just never done it, never heard it recommended, and never seen anyone do it. In most cases people are either building their anchor with a whateverolette or they are swapping leads so it never comes in to play. If you use the rope in the anchor on a regular basis though, you will eventually find yourself swapping ends. At some point your partner is not going to want to or be able to lead the next pitch and "rebuilding" a 3-4 point gear anchor with the other end of the rope is slow and a recipe for clusterfuckage. If someone is uncomfortable with that eventuality it's easy to avoid, just use a dedicated anchor rig. As I'm sure you do. Maybe my experience has to do with the fact that I always climb with doubles and almost never swing leads? I typically use the rope to attach to the anchor but it quite often consists of two equalized pieces cloved to one rope with a locker and two more equalized and cloved to the other rope. when the second comes up they connect with a locker to each of the equalized points just like I did (making sure they go under my ropes with theirs). Then, as I mentioned above, they pass me the sling with all my gear and I tell them what to do with the ropes (either flip or re-flake). BTW, I'm not saying this is better or safer, just sharing what I do.
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patto
Dec 8, 2010, 10:46 PM
Post #31 of 48
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socalclimber wrote: Beginners need to learn how to deal with these issues. They need to learn how to stack the rope and swap leads without swapping ends. I can't disagree with that really. But I am not presenting 5 easy steps for noobs. I am arguing that statements such as untying is bad are flawed. That said I happily teach beginners how to build anchors with rope. And if they aren't switching leads then they pretty much have to untie. If swapping ends is too difficult you shouldn't be on a multi pitch cliff. Generally I find beginners are better at this sort of stuff because they are NOT complacent,
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healyje
Dec 8, 2010, 10:58 PM
Post #32 of 48
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patto wrote: I am arguing that statements such as untying is bad are flawed. They aren't flawed if we're talking beginning and intermediate climbers, neither of whom should be untying for any reason over the course of a climb.
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patto
Dec 8, 2010, 11:14 PM
Post #33 of 48
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healyje wrote: patto wrote: I am arguing that statements such as untying is bad are flawed. They aren't flawed if we're talking beginning and intermediate climbers, neither of whom should be untying for any reason over the course of a climb. Well they are flawed. Sure say untying is not recommended for beginners but don't condemn it as a practice that should never be done. Such comments I disagree with and will post my objections. Besides what if an beginner/intermediate climber is not swapping leads on a multipitch and they build the anchor out of rope? Not all areas have cohernt crack systems. Often protection is spaced further apart that a cordelette reaches. Climbing rope is far more flexible.
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healyje
Dec 9, 2010, 12:00 AM
Post #34 of 48
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patto wrote: Sure say untying is not recommended for beginners but don't condemn it as a practice that should never be done. Such comments I disagree with and will post my objections. I have no reservations at all saying it should never be done by beginning and intermediate climbers. Any justification or rationale you could come up with for why they should is simply a statement of an activity such climbers shouldn't be engaged in.
(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 9, 2010, 12:02 AM)
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ptlong2
Dec 9, 2010, 1:47 AM
Post #35 of 48
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healyje wrote: patto wrote: Sure say untying is not recommended for beginners but don't condemn it as a practice that should never be done. Such comments I disagree with and will post my objections. I have no reservations at all saying it should never be done by beginning and intermediate climbers. Any justification or rationale you could come up with for why they should is simply a statement of an activity such climbers shouldn't be engaged in. It sounds like you two are agreeing. Untying, in a general sense, has its merits. But for beginners it's a bad idea. In a beginner forum is it verboten to even discuss practices that do not apply to beginners?
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kenr
Dec 9, 2010, 3:38 AM
Post #36 of 48
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Wow, so many great ideas, with good points pro + con for different approaches. First I'm printing all this for Sharon to read so we can decide what to do for our climbing together. Whatever she + I decide, I think with other partners I need to be ready to lead without switching ends of the rope. There's just too many other important assumptions to talk about with a new partner, I don't want to count on having time for a discussion about the pros+cons of switching ends. I'm seeing now that one key part of not switching ends is to include slings in clever ways into my rope anchors, so that the remaining rope components are quicker to rebuild when necessary - (glad to see some good ideas for doing that). Then the other partner and I need to agree on how we'll manage the rope stack. If we agree on frequent re-stacking, the suggestion of having the partner doing that task while I do most of the other fiddling for getting ready for the next lead makes sense. If we want to avoid re-stacking, then I'll just have to learn to get better at managing the rope while belaying . . . I like the idea of starting to lay the rope in short loops, then successively longer + longer -- seems like something I should learn for hanging anchors anyway (even if Sharon and I decide to switch ends mostly). And get good at deciding when it's OK to lead again without re-stacking (seems clear that lots of people succeed in doing this a high percentage of the time) and when it's better to take the time to re-stack. This has been so helpful -- Thanks a lot. Ken
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bill413
Dec 9, 2010, 3:45 AM
Post #37 of 48
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kenr wrote: Wow, so many great ideas, with good points pro + con for different approaches. First I'm printing all this for Sharon to read so we can decide what to do for our climbing together. Whatever she + I decide, I think with other partners I need to be ready to lead without switching ends of the rope. There's just too many other important assumptions to talk about with a new partner, I don't want to count on having time for a discussion about the pros+cons of switching ends. I'm seeing now that one key part of not switching ends is to include slings in clever ways into my rope anchors, so that the remaining rope components are quicker to rebuild when necessary - (glad to see some good ideas for doing that). Then the other partner and I need to agree on how we'll manage the rope stack. If we agree on frequent re-stacking, the suggestion of having the partner doing that task while I do most of the other fiddling for getting ready for the next lead makes sense. If we want to avoid re-stacking, then I'll just have to learn to get better at managing the rope while belaying . . . I like the idea of starting to lay the rope in short loops, then successively longer + longer -- seems like something I should learn for hanging anchors anyway (even if Sharon and I decide to switch ends mostly). And get good at deciding when it's OK to lead again without re-stacking (seems clear that lots of people succeed in doing this a high percentage of the time) and when it's better to take the time to re-stack. This has been so helpful -- Thanks a lot. Ken I sort of feel that we should stop responding to kenr's posts.
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sp115
Dec 9, 2010, 4:27 AM
Post #38 of 48
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bill413 wrote: I sort of feel that we should stop responding to kenr's posts. +1
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jbro_135
Dec 9, 2010, 4:32 AM
Post #39 of 48
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kenr wrote: Wow, so many great ideas, with good points pro + con for different approaches. First I'm printing all this for Sharon to read so we can decide what to do for our climbing together. Whatever she + I decide, I think with other partners I need to be ready to lead without switching ends of the rope. There's just too many other important assumptions to talk about with a new partner, I don't want to count on having time for a discussion about the pros+cons of switching ends. I'm seeing now that one key part of not switching ends is to include slings in clever ways into my rope anchors, so that the remaining rope components are quicker to rebuild when necessary - (glad to see some good ideas for doing that). Then the other partner and I need to agree on how we'll manage the rope stack. If we agree on frequent re-stacking, the suggestion of having the partner doing that task while I do most of the other fiddling for getting ready for the next lead makes sense. If we want to avoid re-stacking, then I'll just have to learn to get better at managing the rope while belaying . . . I like the idea of starting to lay the rope in short loops, then successively longer + longer -- seems like something I should learn for hanging anchors anyway (even if Sharon and I decide to switch ends mostly). And get good at deciding when it's OK to lead again without re-stacking (seems clear that lots of people succeed in doing this a high percentage of the time) and when it's better to take the time to re-stack. This has been so helpful -- Thanks a lot. Ken you're still alive?
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sspssp
Dec 10, 2010, 9:48 PM
Post #40 of 48
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My partner and I can flip the rope without problem even for a hanging belay with the rope on the sling. It helps if you know how to flake it as the second comes up. However, for somebody on a beginners forum, I would say re-stack. It doesn't take that long and will probably have fewer problems. At a hanging belay where the rope was "flipped", the second will sometimes have to "look ahead" and manage loops of ropes before it becomes a tangle. Personally, I wouldn't trust a newish belayer with this. Another option, just to rile up the "yer gonna die crowd", is to tie a figure 8 on a bight at both ends and clip the rope to the harness with two locking biners. So instead of untieying/retying, you just unlock and relock two biners.
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vegastradguy
Dec 10, 2010, 10:01 PM
Post #41 of 48
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kenr wrote: I like the idea of starting to lay the rope in short loops, then successively longer + longer -- seems like something I should learn for hanging anchors anyway (even if Sharon and I decide to switch ends mostly). yeah- the guy who wrote this forgot to mention the part where you flip this over so the short loops are on top. well, i guess you wouldnt have to necessarily flip it, but the leaders side is the side where the loops start small and get bigger, otherwise, you will cluster the shit out of your rope when the big loops start to catch on the smaller loops if they're being pulled up first. i also agree on some folks here. you really are not getting much out of what alot of people are giving to you- which is good advice. you would do well to re-read this thread several times until you understand what is actually being said here.
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notapplicable
Dec 11, 2010, 12:36 AM
Post #42 of 48
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sp115 wrote: notapplicable wrote: sp115 wrote: But you know, I'm actually surpised to see that the last three posts all are from people who have swapped ends. I've just never done it, never heard it recommended, and never seen anyone do it. In most cases people are either building their anchor with a whateverolette or they are swapping leads so it never comes in to play. If you use the rope in the anchor on a regular basis though, you will eventually find yourself swapping ends. At some point your partner is not going to want to or be able to lead the next pitch and "rebuilding" a 3-4 point gear anchor with the other end of the rope is slow and a recipe for clusterfuckage. If someone is uncomfortable with that eventuality it's easy to avoid, just use a dedicated anchor rig. As I'm sure you do. Maybe my experience has to do with the fact that I always climb with doubles and almost never swing leads? I typically use the rope to attach to the anchor but it quite often consists of two equalized pieces cloved to one rope with a locker and two more equalized and cloved to the other rope. when the second comes up they connect with a locker to each of the equalized points just like I did (making sure they go under my ropes with theirs). Then, as I mentioned above, they pass me the sling with all my gear and I tell them what to do with the ropes (either flip or re-flake). BTW, I'm not saying this is better or safer, just sharing what I do. Yeah, our systems are about as different as you can get but thats cool. The real fun starts when people like you and I partner up for the first time...
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notapplicable
Dec 11, 2010, 12:50 AM
Post #43 of 48
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vegastradguy wrote: i also agree on some folks here. you really are not getting much out of what alot of people are giving to you- which is good advice. you would do well to re-read this thread several times until you understand what is actually being said here. I don't know man. He may not be taking away what any one of us in particular would like but I remember being where kenr is now and having a lot of fun playing with all kinds of different rigs. I've settled on what works for me and learned a lot in the process. Certainly you cannot learn without making mistakes, which can be quite the dangerous proposition, but you cannot become a proficient climber without learning a few things on your own either. Catch-22?
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socalclimber
Dec 11, 2010, 2:51 AM
Post #44 of 48
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healyje wrote: patto wrote: Sure say untying is not recommended for beginners but don't condemn it as a practice that should never be done. Such comments I disagree with and will post my objections. I have no reservations at all saying it should never be done by beginning and intermediate climbers. Any justification or rationale you could come up with for why they should is simply a statement of an activity such climbers shouldn't be engaged in. Agreed. There is no justification for them to untie to swap leads.
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vegastradguy
Dec 11, 2010, 4:57 AM
Post #45 of 48
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notapplicable wrote: vegastradguy wrote: i also agree on some folks here. you really are not getting much out of what alot of people are giving to you- which is good advice. you would do well to re-read this thread several times until you understand what is actually being said here. I don't know man. He may not be taking away what any one of us in particular would like but I remember being where kenr is now and having a lot of fun playing with all kinds of different rigs. I've settled on what works for me and learned a lot in the process. Certainly you cannot learn without making mistakes, which can be quite the dangerous proposition, but you cannot become a proficient climber without learning a few things on your own either. Catch-22? i was more concerned that he didnt get the general gist of what was being said in the thread. obviously listening to one of us over the other would be foolish, as he has no idea which of us, if any, is spouting anything worth listening to. its the overall vibe of this thread (along with others he's started) that he seems to be missing.
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devkrev
Jan 4, 2011, 1:43 PM
Post #46 of 48
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phang_nga
Jan 4, 2011, 3:59 PM
Post #47 of 48
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Man, I miss bell-bottom jeans.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 4, 2011, 4:30 PM
Post #48 of 48
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Just to be repetitive, I guess, I can't think of a time when I've untied when climbing in a team of two. I've always either pancaked the rope or flaked it again. If I have untied, it was because of a major rope clusterfuck and it was just easier to untie, but again, I can't recall at time when that's happened. One note, I personally almost always secure myself to the anchor with the rope, so untying isn't going to turn out well in that circumstance. The only time when I've untied without a clusterfuck is when climbing in a team of three and we've decided to switch leads. I can't think of an instance where I've done this without all of us agreeing to climb a route with nice ledges so that we weren't adding to the danger by untying and hanging from a belay at the same time. In other words, when we've made the decision to untie, we've tried to limit some of the other risks. Personally, I think untying uneccesarily adds to the many things that can potentially go wrong. It has its merits at times, but, in general, I think it should be avoided.
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