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xbrianx1990
Dec 20, 2010, 8:01 PM
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I've spent this last season climbing trad and so far have managed not to kill myself or get injured (much to my surprise). I started out taking a course for a few days with a guide and stayed very conservative all season long, climbing well below my grade. Prior to this I lead sport inside as much as possible and TR'd outside as well. Theres not much outdoor sport climbing here locally so that was the best plan I could come up with.
I just heard that a friend of mine just bought some cams and stoppers and in my opinion he is no way near ready to start leading on gear. Its just my opinion but if you cant pass the lead test in a soft gym then why would you even think about leading on gear yet? It's just my opinion but yeah, it's what I think.
Anyway, at what point did you think you were ready to climb trad and what do you think the basic general requirements are for a new leader?
(This post was edited by xbrianx1990 on Dec 20, 2010, 8:09 PM)
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cporter
Dec 20, 2010, 8:12 PM
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In reply to: Anyway, at what point did you think you were ready to climb trad and what do you think the basic general requirements are for a new leader?
That's a really hard questions to answer. I consider myself lucky to have lived through my learning years. The best advice is to start climbing routes that are well below your grade and protect easily. Then, slowly increase until you feel comfortable placing gear and making moves at the upper end of your climbing ability. Honestly, you seem like a have a good head on your shoulders. Just go do it.
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spikeddem
Dec 20, 2010, 8:16 PM
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The question that you should ask, in my opinion, is not "When is someone ready to start leading on gear?" but rather "When is someone ready to push their limits leading on gear?"
Do you think you'd feel comfortable if your friend was leading 5.4 on gear? 5.5? 5.6? 5.7? 5.8? 5.9? 5.10?
Odds are, you'll figure it's fine for 5.4. Talk to him and figure out where the line is. Get experience on the easiest climbs possible, and up the grade as the climber (and any mentor present) feels comfortable...IMO.
Edit: And a mentor, in this case, SHOULD be present. It helps avoid someone feeling comfortable when they really shouldn't be (i.e., not realizing that their placements suck).
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Dec 20, 2010, 8:18 PM)
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scotty1974
Dec 20, 2010, 8:17 PM
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Yeah there's no hard fast rule, especially since it's a lifelong learning process. I probably started buying trad gear before I was ready, but I knew it was something I was going to work my way up to. I mean , when are you ever REALLY ready?
But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some form of check and balance. Unfotunently there isn't any "accrediation" required before you put yourself in harms way.
Hopefully your friend will practice placements, build anchors and lead on TR before he goes to do the Bastille. He'll quickly learn 5.4 on gear is a world away from 5.10 in the gym.
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Dec 20, 2010, 8:18 PM)
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caughtinside
Dec 20, 2010, 8:17 PM
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Good for your friend for getting out there and learning.
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dbogardus
Dec 20, 2010, 8:27 PM
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xbrianx1990 wrote: I've spent this last season climbing trad so far have managed not to kill myself or get injured (much to my surprise). I started out taking a course for a few days with a guide and stayed very conservative all season long, climbing well below my grade. Prior to this I lead sport inside as much as possible and TR'd outside as well. Theres not much outdoor sport climbing here locally so that was the best plan I could come up with. I just heard that a friend of mine just bought some cams and stoppers and in my opinion he is no way near ready to start leading on gear. Its just my opinion but if you cant pass the lead test in a soft gym then why would you even think about leading on gear yet? It's just my opinion but yeah, it's what I think. Anyway, at what point did you think you were ready to climb trad and what do you think the basic general requirements are for a new leader?
I started leading this past summer. I felt I was ready after reading several books and using a guide for a day.
If you don't think you're ready, you're probably not. Get very comfortable with the most important concepts and get up there.
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bill413
Dec 20, 2010, 8:41 PM
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I actually think that it's not a bad thing that there's no "accreditation" required.
When you think you're ready to start leading on gear, it's reasonable to try it. I think that one should learn placements, rope management, and all that stuff on routes that are well below one's limit. And, have the leads critiqued by people who know what they're doing.
At some point, the person will feel "comfortable" pushing themselves on the lead. Or not. But a solid base of experience will help safety.
I know there are some who think "lead as soon as you can climb." (Maybe not that extreme.) But, when you lead you're responsible for both yourself & your partner. I think you need more climbing knowledge than just a lap or two on the rock before leading.
I know there are some folks who think you should push yourself as soon as you start leading. Again, I think that there is so much that can go wrong that you need experience before putting yourself in objective danger.
But, despite these thoughts, there are people who jump on the sharp end very early, push themselves on their first lead, and survive.
With regard to the OP's friend, have a talk with him. Get him to go out with you & just practice placements at the 10 foot level & below. Critique each other. That will help a lot.
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trenchdigger
Dec 20, 2010, 8:43 PM
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scotty1974 wrote: Yeah there's no hard fast rule...
I think there is a "hard and fast" rule: The prospective leader MUST be able to consistently make good gear placements and MUST be able to build safe anchors. Those are the very basics of trad leading, and without those, the OP's friend has no business being on the sharp end. Fortunately they can be practiced safely from the ground.
With the gear placement and anchor building foundation in place, find a route that will be easy for the new leader and has plentiful protection options, and get to it!
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justroberto
Dec 20, 2010, 8:47 PM
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I was ready when my climbing partner told me I was. The night before I'd partied until about 5 am, got two hours of sleep, then threw up on the way to the rock. I followed him up one route, then he handed me the rack and told me it was my turn.
In my mind I wasn't ready. In his mind, I was. Or maybe he was just trying to get back at me for puking in front of his 15 year old son.
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kachoong
Dec 20, 2010, 9:02 PM
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Very early on I used to follow a good friend/mentor on certain "appropriate" climbs a few times, removing his gear before trying the lead myself.
My first trad leads I learned which particular pieces to place and where by following it a few times. They were short climbs at a fairly easy grade, I think around 5.8. Knowing what piece I needed I'd utilize my awareness to fiddle with gear and clipping the rope in, rather than stuffing around trying to find the right piece (since I knew which pieces to use).
After that I tried a few leads, after following a few times, on climbs a little easier, around 5.7 and do both fiddling with gear and trying to find the right piece... rack management is a critical skill in the learning process and sometimes takes up valuable awareness away from both the climbing and piece setting.
My third level of n00bness had me TR a few climbs without actually following, at grades about 5.8, and then trying to redpoint them without prior gear knowledge; rather knowing the moves and seeing where the placements might be from being on TR.
My friend also made me place EVERY piece of gear he owned in cracks at ground level some of the days we went out. He'd go over a few in detail and give me a score out of the number of placements. Didn't take too long to get used to it.
Basically though I was told I was ready before I thought I was ready, so find yourself a good mentor and follow a heap, then choose relatively steep easy climbs that lack ledges to practice your leading.
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notapplicable
Dec 20, 2010, 9:41 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Good for your friend for getting out there and learning.
Well this is awkward, I just had to rate one of your post 5 stars.
I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that.
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j_ung
Dec 20, 2010, 9:43 PM
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I was ready well after I started.
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caughtinside
Dec 20, 2010, 9:48 PM
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notapplicable wrote: caughtinside wrote: Good for your friend for getting out there and learning. Well this is awkward, I just had to rate one of your post 5 stars. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that.
5 whole stars? That and a nickel will get me a hot cup of...
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notapplicable
Dec 20, 2010, 10:21 PM
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caughtinside wrote: notapplicable wrote: caughtinside wrote: Good for your friend for getting out there and learning. Well this is awkward, I just had to rate one of your post 5 stars. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that. 5 whole stars? That and a nickel will get me a hot cup of...
I feel much better now that I was able to 1 star this post.
Thank you.
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xbrianx1990
Dec 20, 2010, 11:09 PM
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The issue is that this is a guy that cannot lead a 5.7 bolted route in the gym but makes the decision that trad is a good idea. I have a real problem with that thought process and his judgement. I dont want to see him get hurt and I don't want to come off as some sort of know it all who thinks I'm better than everyone else when I tell him that I dont think he's strong enough for this yet. I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm anything other than a newbie leader but I have enough experience to know that I have tons to learn.
I've climbed my way into some bad situations this year and managed to realize it and get myself out of it without much more than a large amount of adrenaline running through my veins. I dont know if my friend will be able to to make the correct decisions when he'd getting pumped on a runnout chossy 5.5.
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healyje
Dec 20, 2010, 11:18 PM
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scotty1974 wrote: Unfotunently there isn't any "accrediation" required before you put yourself in harms way.
And hopefully there never will be unless Darwin comes back from the grave and starts handing them out personally.
Look, despite thirty years of commercialization which could lead one to believe otherwise, this isn't a game, a hobby, an interest, an image, an identity, a video game, a social activity, or something you signup or browse for. It's climbing - and no one will ever be on the sharp end of a rope with you if you decide to lead. Accreditation cannot substitute for personal responsibility and in general is the antithesis of everything climbing is about.
Many of us learned to climb in areas without much climbing history and before the advent of gyms and sport climbing. All climbing was trad or TR and it was and still should be a self-regulating / self-limiting affair. And let's be clear up front - leading on gear isn't an 'everyman' deal nor was it ever - you may or may not be cut out for it and that's for you to figure out. The difference between then and now is that if you couldn't cut it climbing trad then you didn't climb at all; you found something else to do. And no one - repeat, no one - is or should be responsible for the decisions you make for yourself in climbing. If you aren't capable of making good decisions for yourself in climbing then stick with bouldering, sport, or take up golf.
That's not to say that you should find ancient copies of Basic and Advanced Rockcraft and hit the rock and figure it out for yourself (though many did). It mostly worked through mentoring back then and should still be, though I understand that isn't always possible or practical. But while reading, sketching on your own, courses, and guides are available to you, all pale as a substitute for extended yardage seconding competent leaders. You should if at all possible try by almost any means to get that experience before you settle for lesser methods.
Also, you want to do something to get ready for trad leading? Then become a downclimbing fool. You can do it in a gym and it's way more productive than fondling gear. Get good at it and learning trad will become that much more reasonable a proposition. That, and if humanly possible, don't dog/hang on gear while you're learning unless you're in a situation that absolutely demands it - it's a terrible mindset / crutch to develop and sooner or later you'll likely end up pulling gear when you wish it hadn't.
(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 21, 2010, 12:46 AM)
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erisspirit
Dec 21, 2010, 12:53 AM
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I was ready in physical ability and climbing experience well before I was ready to mentally handle trad. After taking a big fall on sport lead, I used to scare easily on lead, so I really felt I had to overcome that before I felt confident with learning to place gear on lead. I'm glad I waited.
I also felt it was really important and helpful to do a lot of following on trad before I began to lead. I really got to examine a wide variety of placements, ask a lot of questions.
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bill413
Dec 21, 2010, 1:17 AM
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xbrianx1990 wrote: The issue is that this is a guy that cannot lead a 5.7 bolted route in the gym but makes the decision that trad is a good idea.
Lots of folks started leading on 5.2, 5.3, 5.4... Old Appies used to have to work their way up, one by one, throught the grades*. Being able to climb 5.7 is not actually a requirement to lead trad. Being able to exercise judgement is.
(*I'm not saying that that was a great way to go, in fact, it was somewhat limiting.)
In reply to: I've climbed my way into some bad situations this year and managed to realize it and get myself out of it without much more than a large amount of adrenaline running through my veins. I dont know if my friend will be able to to make the correct decisions when he'd getting pumped on a runnout chossy 5.5.
This is the crux - making the decisions, whether it's 5.3, 5.5, or 5.14.
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rocknice2
Dec 21, 2010, 2:36 AM
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Trad climbing may be just the ticket for this guy.
I know a couple of guys who don't lead any harder than 5.7
Outdoor easy grades tend to be at lower angles than indoor. [generally but not everywhere]
If your friend is on the heavy side [just assuming] he will definitely have an easier time on lower angle climbs.
Basically climbing ability is not nearly as important as gear judgement.
Actually I think that gyms have been somewhat detrimental to trad. Climbers who climb 5.11 sport and then start trying to lead a trad 5.9+. yea they get up but all the gear is shit even though they did well on the ground.
Some climbers just don't start at a low enough grade when starting to learn trad.
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amyas
Dec 21, 2010, 2:59 AM
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Umm, it was after 1 full season of sport leading for me. But then my very first climbing experience was leading on rock, never made it to a gym yet. Gym's might prepare you better for all i know. I went for a course with a guide before trad leading though, saves you tons of time when climbing if nothing else, they know lot of rigging tricks.
edited to include: still climbing 2 grades below my sport grades.*
(This post was edited by amyas on Dec 21, 2010, 3:00 AM)
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jt512
Dec 21, 2010, 3:06 AM
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xbrianx1990 wrote: When were you ready to start climbing on gear?
About 10 years before I was ready to start climbing on bolts.
Jay
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potreroed
Dec 21, 2010, 5:41 AM
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I started leading on gear the second day I went climbing.
Years later I took a friend climbing for the first time and after following a couple of routes he led a 5.6 on gear his first day.
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jbro_135
Dec 22, 2010, 2:25 AM
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the day after the nuts i ordered arrived
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