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Cosizzle
Dec 24, 2010, 6:15 PM
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Hey guys,
So the other night at my local gym I had a small scare, I was belaying a lead on a 12b and my partner was up and over the overhang. He got towards the top so I let out a little rope, as I was doing so he fell.
This is frustrating to write because I'm horribly ashamed I allowed for this to happen. Anyways, he fell my first reaction was to use my left hand to grab the rope (which left a small light burn) I then, with my right hand, because it was on the break forced it down to lock the ATC, as well I threw myself flat to the ground. He didn't fall bad at all, it was actually quite clean. I was very lucky and learnt a very valuable lesson.
I've gone over and over this in my head of what I could have done differently. When I learnt to belay I learnt the pinch and slide method, however when lead belaying I've found this to be a little slow. I've started to (when I take rope) do the following:
1. Pull the ATC up so both lines are parallel. (right hand is on the break)
2. Pull the rope and lock the ATC
3. position the left hand on the break, remove the right hand and place it above the left just below the ATC
4. repeat (if needed)
To me the first step seems to be a really vulnerable spot in which a lot of bad can happen. This method has come naturally, and I know I've read about it. My questions are:
1. Instead of pulling up (making both lines parallel) would it be better to pull outwards?
2. The method I'm using, is it more common? I've read the pinch and slide isn't that good and can lead to more mistakes.
I'm posting this because I'm looking for feed back at what I could have done, or should do differently. I think in climbing, these small moments happen and although they're scary as anything they happen to teach us something. So please when posting, provide feedback that will help.
Thanks a ton guys!
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billl7
Dec 24, 2010, 6:22 PM
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Cosizzle wrote: This is frustrating to write because I'm horribly ashamed I allowed for this to happen.
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Cosizzle
Dec 24, 2010, 6:30 PM
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haha no, I'm kinda glad I have that... it's a nice reminder. What I'm ashamed of is that I allowed for a moment in which something could have gone terribly wrong.
I managed to lock the ATC and save the day... but it happened all so fast I feel as if there was a lot of scrambling going on with my hands which I believe is the scary part.
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crazy_fingers84
Dec 24, 2010, 6:40 PM
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Cosizzle wrote: Hey guys, So the other night at my local gym I had a small scare, I was belaying a lead on a 12b and my partner was up and over the overhang. He got towards the top so I let out a little rope, as I was doing so he fell. This is frustrating to write because I'm horribly ashamed I allowed for this to happen. Anyways, he fell my first reaction was to use my left hand to grab the rope (which left a small light burn) I then, with my right hand, because it was on the break forced it down to lock the ATC, as well I threw myself flat to the ground. He didn't fall bad at all, it was actually quite clean. I was very lucky and learnt a very valuable lesson. I've gone over and over this in my head of what I could have done differently. When I learnt to belay I learnt the pinch and slide method, however when lead belaying I've found this to be a little slow. I've started to (when I take rope) do the following: 1. Pull the ATC up so both lines are parallel. (right hand is on the break)
2. Pull the rope and lock the ATC
3. position the left hand on the break, remove the right hand and place it above the left just below the ATC
4. repeat (if needed) To me the first step seems to be a really vulnerable spot in which a lot of bad can happen. This method has come naturally, and I know I've read about it. My questions are: 1. Instead of pulling up (making both lines parallel) would it be better to pull outwards? 2. The method I'm using, is it more common? I've read the pinch and slide isn't that good and can lead to more mistakes. I'm posting this because I'm looking for feed back at what I could have done, or should do differently. I think in climbing, these small moments happen and although they're scary as anything they happen to teach us something. So please when posting, provide feedback that will help. Thanks a ton guys!
I dont understand what you are saying about your belay method at all... why are you touching the atc while belaying? also, approx. how far did your climber fall, how much rope was out?
p.s. please don't say learnt, it hurts my brain
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currupt4130
Dec 24, 2010, 6:44 PM
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Put your left below your right, slide your right, and then replace your left wherever it was. Some people will argue that you can take your right off the brake as long as your left is on it and swap it over but it's easier and better habit to never remove your right hand from the brake side.
When you're feeding slack, like normal left on the upper and right on the brake, you really shouldn't have to take out much slack when you're leader falls unless they're in danger of hitting something like a ledge or the lip of an overhang.
If they fall, lock it off and hold on, that's it.
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Colinhoglund
Dec 24, 2010, 7:05 PM
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Technically, your break hand should never be above your belay device especially with an atc (or similar). The reason you got a burn is because until you moved the break strand below the device there was essentially no breaking friction provided by the atc. Heres your step by step.
1. One hand above atc, one on break strand.
2. Loosen grip on rope, slide both hands down rope without *letting go*
3. Tighten grip with both hands and pull slack through
4. Repeat
This is the official recommended non locking belay device lead method as prescribed by the ACMG in Canada. Nigh everyone I've climbed with does this.
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billl7
Dec 24, 2010, 7:28 PM
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Cosizzle wrote: I managed to lock the ATC and save the day... but it happened all so fast I feel as if there was a lot of scrambling going on with my hands which I believe is the scary part.
And if you are trolling, coals in your stocking on the mantle!!
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crazy_fingers84
Dec 24, 2010, 7:31 PM
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Colinhoglund wrote: Technically, your break hand should never be above your belay device especially with an atc (or similar). The reason you got a burn is because until you moved the break strand below the device there was essentially no breaking friction provided by the atc. Heres your step by step. 1. One hand above atc, one on break strand 2. Loosen grip on rope, slide both hands down rope without *letting go* 3. Tighten grip with both hands and pull slack through 4. Repeat This is the official recommended non locking belay device lead method as prescribed by the ACMG in Canada. Nigh everyone I've climbed with does this.
The OP is asking for lead belaying advice, not top roping.
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billl7
Dec 24, 2010, 7:33 PM
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crazy_fingers84 wrote: Colinhoglund wrote: Technically, your break hand should never be above your belay device especially with an atc (or similar). The reason you got a burn is because until you moved the break strand below the device there was essentially no breaking friction provided by the atc. Heres your step by step. 1. One hand above atc, one on break strand 2. Loosen grip on rope, slide both hands down rope without *letting go* 3. Tighten grip with both hands and pull slack through 4. Repeat This is the official recommended non locking belay device lead method as prescribed by the ACMG in Canada. Nigh everyone I've climbed with does this. The OP is asking for lead belaying advice, not top roping.
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billl7
Dec 24, 2010, 7:43 PM
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Colinhoglund wrote: Technically, your break hand should never be above your belay device especially with an atc (or similar).
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spikeddem
Dec 24, 2010, 7:46 PM
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this method may be ok for 12a, but you gotta be UP TO PAR for 12b. jeez.12b is not playtime anymore!
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j_ung
Dec 24, 2010, 8:48 PM
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I have absolutely no idea what's going on right now.
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Cosizzle
Dec 24, 2010, 8:51 PM
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I'm looking for lead belaying advise. To be more specific I'm looking to find the safest and most efficient way of taking in slack when belaying
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jt512
Dec 24, 2010, 9:29 PM
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Cosizzle wrote: I'm looking for lead belaying advise. To be more specific I'm looking to find the safest and most efficient way of taking in slack when belaying
The pinch-and-slide method is safe if you are properly trained. However, you weren't, as evidenced by the fact that your first reaction was to grab the rope with the wrong hand. You should have instantly locked off the rope when your partner peeled. Grabbing the rope with wrong hand is unacceptable.
Jay
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billl7
Dec 24, 2010, 10:11 PM
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jt512 wrote: Cosizzle wrote: I'm looking for lead belaying advise. To be more specific I'm looking to find the safest and most efficient way of taking in slack when belaying The pinch-and-slide method is safe if you are properly trained. However, you weren't, as evidenced by the fact that your first reaction was to grab the rope with the wrong hand. You should have instantly locked off the rope when your partner peeled. Grabbing the rope with wrong hand is unacceptable.
Agree with that. The pinch-and-slide is not the problem. It is lack of training ... either that or lack of focus.
Or this could have just been an attempt to burn up time before that big Christmas Eve party, eh?
Bill L
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shockabuku
Dec 24, 2010, 10:15 PM
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Sounds like you need more practice belaying, not a new method.
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oldsalt
Dec 24, 2010, 11:25 PM
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I get the creeps when I see someone take their right hand off of the rope for any reason, lead or TR. I don't do it and I don't want my belayer to do it.
Those who routinely take their right hand off, please explain how you make a catch while it is not in contact with the rope.
[I've seen it, but I can't picture how it works from a tactile/motor standpoint.]
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notapplicable
Dec 25, 2010, 12:27 AM
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oldsalt wrote: I get the creeps when I see someone take their right hand off of the rope for any reason, lead or TR. I don't do it and I don't want my belayer to do it. Those who routinely take their right hand off, please explain how you make a catch while it is not in contact with the rope. [I've seen it, but I can't picture how it works from a tactile/motor standpoint.]
The only time I see people take their "brake hand" off the rope is after they have placed the other hand above it on the brake strand, at which point that is the new "brake hand" while the other crosses over.
Have you seen people routinely take both hands off the rope as a part of their belay method?
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notapplicable
Dec 25, 2010, 12:31 AM
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Cosizzle wrote: I'm looking to find the safest and most efficient way of taking in slack when belaying
Sorry, no such thing. Or at least no consensus as to what that method might be.
Edited to add: The search function is your friend - Safest Belay Technique
Not that you will find your answer in that thread but you might learn some new tricks. The reality is, no one technique is perfect, or even ideal for all circumstances.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Dec 25, 2010, 12:48 AM)
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tower_climber
Dec 25, 2010, 1:42 AM
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Buy a Gri-Gri.
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jt512
Dec 25, 2010, 2:44 AM
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tower_climber wrote: Buy a Gri-Gri.
Bad advice.
Jay
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j_ung
Dec 25, 2010, 2:56 AM
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jt512 wrote: tower_climber wrote: Buy a Gri-Gri. Bad advice. Jay
Heh. I'm probably reading all this wrong, but if I did manage to understand where the rope burn occurred, a Gri-gri might have been disastrous.
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tower_climber
Dec 25, 2010, 3:26 AM
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jt512 wrote: tower_climber wrote: Buy a Gri-Gri. Bad advice.
And the sharks circle the bait...
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billl7
Dec 25, 2010, 4:10 AM
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tower_climber wrote: jt512 wrote: tower_climber wrote: Buy a Gri-Gri. Bad advice. And the sharks circle the bait...
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oldsalt
Dec 25, 2010, 5:04 AM
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notapplicable wrote: oldsalt wrote: I get the creeps when I see someone take their right hand off of the rope for any reason, lead or TR. I don't do it and I don't want my belayer to do it. No, I have not seen a competent belayer take both hands off of the rope. I have seen people with both hands off, and it was not part of an established school of belaying. It was someone cheating death with someone else's life. I think we see eye to eye on this point. Those who routinely take their primary hand off (be it right or left), please explain how you make a catch while it is not in contact with the rope. If the answer is that you catch with your other hand, please assure me that you are ambidextrous and can catch with great skill regardless of the hand. [I've seen it, but I can't picture how it works from a tactile/motor standpoint.] The only time I see people take their "brake hand" off the rope is after they have placed the other hand above it on the brake strand, at which point that is the new "brake hand" while the other crosses over. Have you seen people routinely take both hands off the rope as a part of their belay method?
I'll man-up here and say that I was taught:
Never take your brake hand off of the rope. The brake hand should be your right (or your dominant) hand. By this philosophy, lefties should not take their left hand off of the rope.
My reaction is based upon watching people doing the pinch technique, where the right hand comes off of the rope to reset after taking slack. I believe that a fall occurring with the dominant hand out of contact with the rope will not be caught as efficiently as one where the hand is always in contact.
No, I have not seen competent belayers routinely take both hands off of the rope.
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