Okay, let's all vote. Is he a douchebag extrodanair or not?


Vote by saying either "douchebag" or "not a douchebag".

Okay, let's all vote. Am I a douchebag extrodanair or not?


Vote by saying either "douchebag" or "not a douchebag".

Here's what I don't get: Why did the guy steal the draws? How is it worth the time? If he stole 8 draws, he could maybe fetch $40-$60.

Actually, he had just stolen (at least) *two* routes worth of draws.

Did you see all the stuff hanging off his harness?

GO

yep. Until I'm making 40-60 dollars per hour legally, that would have been worth my time too.

That is, if I were a douchebag like this guy.

It's too short-sighted to put it at $40/$60 an hour. You gotta figure in gas to get around the country (can't continually target the same crags), time spent snagging draws, time spent finding draws, time spent posting ads/finding buyers. In the end if you're only stealing draws, you won't be making piss.

its not the money but pleasure of taking it down.

If you're working a route, and you do not have a friend that can use the route as a warm-up, then go ahead and leave them up. The problem that I see is that many people have justified leaving draws up because it is either 5.14 (in this case) or steep (red river gorge references). If the first sentence of this paragraph is the case, then I say go ahead and leave them up, whether the route is 5.8 or 5.14. Otherwise it is just elitist bologna. 5.14 is hard for a 5.13+ climber to hang draws on, and 5.8 is hard for a 5.7+ climber to hang draws on. Either both get to hang draws; neither get to hang draws; or you find a new argument as to why 5.14 is legit for project draws, but 5.8 isn't.

.. to say that it's more legit for a 5.14'er at his/her limit to have them than a 5.10'er at his/her limit is elitist, IMO.

I see what you are getting at, but here is the thing:
those "project draws" are not things that just appear. They are usually draws that someone bought, brought with them, and hung. I think most strong/experienced climbers who decide to leave project draws are aware of the posibility that they might just never get those draws back, but they are O.K. with it, and statistically speaking, they have reasons to be. (see below)



On 5.14s, there are usually only a few people working a route at any given time. And they all know each other, pretty much, at least on a distant basis, because the pool gets smaller at higher grades. And they also know whose draws are hanging on the route. "These are Ians', those are Ryan's, etc.". A combination of small group/personal knowlegde/route difficulty makes the likelihood of draw stealing small, and people who have been climbing a while are also more likely to have enough gear to hang a route full of draws to project, and still have a full set of draws for climbing other random routes.

Now, contrast it with a 5.8 climb. In a busy area, there would be dozens of people climbing it in any given day. Unless they are a part of a big college-club-first-climbing-trip-woohoo gangbang, they don't know each other. And in most cases they are also acutely aware of how expensive that just-bought gear was for them. And in many cases they are also pumped full of conflicting, and not always accurate information about hazzards of climbing. I once had people refuse to let me climb on their draws (because it is unsafe ), even though they were stuck, couldn't finish the route, and I offered to take the draws down for them. Still scratching my head about it...

Is there a climber who is projecting 5.8, and who is willing to leave his OWN just-bought draws on that project, knowing full well that they might not get the draws back?
If so, they could try it.

Want to bet that those draws on 5.8 would be stolen by a fellow under-5.10 climber, maybe even a climber who happily clipped those draws on the way up, and finally redpointed the route thanks to pre-hung draws?

I myself would never remove draws from a fully hung boltline, regardless of the grade, and everyone I know wouldn't, either. Fully hung line = leave them alone.
One random draw or 'biner somewhere in the middle of the route, esp right under the crux = usually booty, unless they are obviously there for the ease of cleaning.

So, in my mind, it's not the case of "how come 5.14 climbers get away with pre-hung draws, but 5.10 mere mortals have to hang and clean their own every time?"-- But rather a case of "5.14 climbers are willing to leave their gear hanging on a project, and 5.10 climbers are not."

Elist, and true.

Well, it seems to me that by definition it cannot be both elitist and true. Elitist implies that a group has special privileges based purely upon some kind of superiority, even if the privileges do not logically follow from their superiority (being "allowed" to leave draws because they climb a harder grade). Thus, at least to me, it seems that it does not make sense to say that it is both "legitimate" and "elitist."

Elitism can often be based in reality.

And your statement about "privileges not logically following..." is wrong. Draws hung on harder grades will affect fewer people, and the people whom they do affect are more likely to have a consensus about hung draws than the user base of climbs 5.12 and under. It is completely logical.

I caught a lot of flack for this sort of thing a few years ago when I left draw hanging on a moderately difficult Gunks route. By doing so, I was depriving or hindering people of the experience of placing gear on lead on a 5.12. Had I left gear on, say, High Exposure, I would have deprived or hindered people of the experience of placing gear on lead on a 5.6; which is the larger group of people affected?

Draws hung on harder grades will affect fewer people, and the people whom they do affect are more likely to have a consensus about hung draws than the user base of climbs 5.12 and under. It is completely logical.

So then where is the line?

I'm all for hung draws, but hell, let everyone hang 'em. It's sport climbing after all.

It's not a line. It's a gray area determined by community consensus and the likelihood that your gear will get stolen.

First of all, why haven't all the aid climbers disappeared into the tar pits by now like dinosaurs. This is what happens when you let them just roam free.

Second: this sounds like a bunch of kids trying to hammer out the rules to kick the can or something. Only children want ethics to be black and white, no negotiation, what works here and now will work everywhere and always. The only rule is don't be an asshole. For example:

This guy stealing draws: asshole.

Aiding up any free route that is too hard for you just to take gear: asshole, no, I take that back, just sad and lonely

Taking a skanky draw that is a few bolts up and obviously a bail-off: not an asshole.

Pulling bolts, hangers, or chains off a route: asshole

Pulling bolts and hangers off a piece of shite that the community has decided is a waste of space and an eye-sore: not an asshole

Leaving draws up on yer proj regardless of the grade at a sport area: not and asshole

Leaving unsightly pre-placed gear or ropes up at a known trad area: asshole

Leaving pre-placed gear up on a your new route that is in the middle of no-where while you work it: not an asshole

Fixed mini-traxion ropes left on classic or popular routes: asshole

Mini-traxion ropes left out of clear site on the Amazing Obscuro Dome: well, actually, you are still probably an asshole and need to find some friends.

Leaving up fixed ropes for your personal photograper/videographer: professional asshole

Leaving behind fixed ropes in an emergency or accident: not an asshole (but you oughta try and go get them)

Pulling obviously (because you live there and have talked with anyone who would know and have been looking at them for 5 years) abandoned and rotten and dangerous draws off a route: not an asshole

Threading a fixed anchor that has biners so you can take them or pulling all but one piece out of a fixed anchor: asshole (and idiot)

Finding half somebody's rack strung out on a pitch after a rain storm and NOT making an effort to post a note or talk to the local shop, etc.: asshole

Keeping said rack after a reasonable and satisfying attempt by you to find the defendant: not an asshole

Lying to the face of said party about having gear or refusing to return it: greedy asshole in need of a beating

Pulling an unknown bail anchor: not an asshole

Pulling an unknown piece that somebody stuck: not an asshole

Pulling a piece that a party above you left and NOT offering it back at the next common belay or back in camp: asshole

Pulling a piece that belongs to somebody you know (even barely, even if you don't like him/her) and not offering it back at your convenience: asshole (this one will get a "yeah, but...", but, sorry, you are an asshole)

Doing anything that in yer gut makes you feel like a dick: well?

If in your next breathe you have to start some convoluted defense of your actions: hmmm?

But, sometimes doing what you want may require you to be an asshole. New routing tactics, for example, often infringe on others in many ways. Accept it, minimize it, and if somebody confronts you don't launch into a tirade about how rad you are and what a gumby he is. Instead, apologize, explain why its necessary, and how you will do this or that to make it right. A decent person sprouts from the ashes of an asshole.

Just do the right thing. You don't need an ethics manual rolled up in your back pocket to check. We have all crossed the asshole line, and gleefully pulled so and so's stuck gear while mumbling "gumby" under our breathe, but was that junky cam worth our fleeting ego trip? What makes you feel better is "hey, slim, I managed to get yer cam out of Vigorous Vaj up on the Gargantua, want it back?" He or she might say no anyway.

And if fixed draws bum you out, so should bolts, and so don't go sport climbing (you are also gonna need a time machine). Eldo awaits- just try to ignore all the tat hanging off the fixed pins and slung horns and trees...

Finally, the golden circle- be cool to those you meet out there, they just might be pulling traction on yer broken femur a few minutes later while you wail like, well, an asshole.

As for steep?

No project draws allowed here: