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sspssp
Jan 28, 2011, 11:08 PM
Post #26 of 35
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justroberto wrote: sspssp wrote: In situations where I want to take more care (night, rain, unfamaliar etc.), my partner and I have a different approach. After threading the rope, the rope is tied off to the anchor so the first one down can rap a single line while the other person uses the other strand to belay from the top. Makes rope management easier on the person going first (only has to untangle one strand and no monkeying around to have to hang) and no possibility of rapping off the end. The second can't rap off the ends since both strands will be with the other climber and attached to the lower anchor. I don't understand this method on so many different levels. It's impossible in your description to "belay" the rappeller on a full length rappel...
Yes, you can belay the first down for the full length rap.
Say both climbers have just finished a two rope rap. Pull one rope (like normal) and feed it through the next rap ring, but keep the rope at the anchor (don't let it snake down the cliff). Eventually, the other rope "falls" and you keep feeding until the knot is at the anchor. The one rope is, more or less depending on tangles, below the anchor and the other is at the anchor. For the rope that is hanging below, pull up a little rope and tie it to the anchor (I tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip it the anchor with a locking biner).
The first one down is going to do a single line rap of this rope. In addition, the first one down is also going to tie into the end of the rope that is still at the anchor (I find it quickest to tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip it to the belay loop with a locking biner).
As the first one down raps the single line, the climber at top belays them with the "other" rope. If the second raps off the end of the fixed rope, he is still belayed by the climer on top. The first one down is only trying to untangle one rope (the rope that fell down from the previous anchor). The second rope is fed out clean by the climber on top.
As the first one down, I don't bother with a backup (prussic or whatever) since I am on belay. And I don't have to be overly worried about losing my grip, if using an atc, (or wrapping the rope over my leg, etc) when dealing with tangles, etc. But since I usually bring my cinch even on multi-pitch, stopping to deal with tangles is really easy.
When the first one down gets to the next anchor, he keeps hold of both ropes and can, if desired, give a "fireman's belay".
The second unties the fixed rope and does a normal two rope rap.
In windy conditions I like having to untangle only one rope.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jan 28, 2011, 11:18 PM)
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justroberto
Jan 29, 2011, 12:16 AM
Post #28 of 35
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sspssp wrote: justroberto wrote: sspssp wrote: In situations where I want to take more care (night, rain, unfamaliar etc.), my partner and I have a different approach. After threading the rope, the rope is tied off to the anchor so the first one down can rap a single line while the other person uses the other strand to belay from the top. Makes rope management easier on the person going first (only has to untangle one strand and no monkeying around to have to hang) and no possibility of rapping off the end. The second can't rap off the ends since both strands will be with the other climber and attached to the lower anchor. I don't understand this method on so many different levels. It's impossible in your description to "belay" the rappeller on a full length rappel... Yes, you can belay the first down for the full length rap. Say both climbers have just finished a two rope rap. Pull one rope (like normal) and feed it through the next rap ring, but keep the rope at the anchor (don't let it snake down the cliff). Eventually, the other rope "falls" and you keep feeding until the knot is at the anchor. The one rope is, more or less depending on tangles, below the anchor and the other is at the anchor. For the rope that is hanging below, pull up a little rope and tie it to the anchor (I tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip it the anchor with a locking biner). The first one down is going to do a single line rap of this rope. In addition, the first one down is also going to tie into the end of the rope that is still at the anchor (I find it quickest to tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip it to the belay loop with a locking biner). As the first one down raps the single line, the climber at top belays them with the "other" rope. If the second raps off the end of the fixed rope, he is still belayed by the climer on top. The first one down is only trying to untangle one rope (the rope that fell down from the previous anchor). The second rope is fed out clean by the climber on top. As the first one down, I don't bother with a backup (prussic or whatever) since I am on belay. And I don't have to be overly worried about losing my grip, if using an atc, (or wrapping the rope over my leg, etc) when dealing with tangles, etc. But since I usually bring my cinch even on multi-pitch, stopping to deal with tangles is really easy. When the first one down gets to the next anchor, he keeps hold of both ropes and can, if desired, give a "fireman's belay". The second unties the fixed rope and does a normal two rope rap. In windy conditions I like having to untangle only one rope.
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murph24
Jan 29, 2011, 8:28 PM
Post #29 of 35
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If you a concerned about rapping off the end and rope eating cracks, try tying into both ends before rapping. Takes a little extra time but solves both problems.
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sspssp
Jan 30, 2011, 1:17 AM
Post #30 of 35
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Yes, this will keep you from rapping off, but it comes with some down sides. If you have just finished a rap (and are going to rap again) and pulled the ropes, you have to pull one of the ropes back up to tie into (although this is also a problem with tying knots in the end).
The bigger problem is if the ropes twist all together it can be a real pain sorting them out. If the end is tied to you and you have a loop of rope below you (or to the side if windy), that loop can catch on things. Sure, you could always untie at that point, but this still isn't my first choice for adding safety redundancy to the rap.
cheers
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jan 30, 2011, 1:18 AM)
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potreroed
Jan 30, 2011, 2:57 AM
Post #31 of 35
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Bats wrote: Rob, I am almost embarrased to say what route, because you will fall down laughing if I told you. I can tell you that it was super wet,slippery, and oh yeah, slimey. It's a super easy 5.6, but with the wet conditions, if felt more like a 5.9.
You should never apologize or be embarrased by what route you chose to climb.
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ladyscarlett
Jan 30, 2011, 4:38 AM
Post #32 of 35
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rgold wrote: Here is way of dealing with knots that hasn't, I think, been mentioned. Knot the ends, and then clip both ropes just above the knots to the harness. (If simul-rapping, each rappeller does this with their strand.) This keeps the ends with the rappeller, since the knots won't pass through the biner or biners, but leaves the ropes at least somewhat free to untwist as the rappel proceeds. Since the rappeller has the knots, the prospect of them getting caught somewhere and causing problems on the descent is eliminated. (The typical bad scenario is getting the knots jammed below the spot where the rappel ends.)
Huh, I've never seen this in action, and hearing your description makes me really want to see it. I can understand how this would be good in particular simul-rappelling (sp?) situations. Surprisingly, I find myself in enough areas with rope eating cracks, simul -rappelling that I would love to add this to the arsenal.
Sorry to be research lazy, but know of a good link that might show a pic or diagram? Sometimes seeing helps me understand what's going on...
cheers for the tip!
LS
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rgold
Jan 30, 2011, 5:53 PM
Post #33 of 35
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@Lady Scarlet: Sorry, there's no link, this is a solution that I've used for quite a while but have never seen in the literature. It is better than tying the rope to you (as suggested above by someone who probably hasn't actually used that method very much) because it helps to avoid the twisting when rapping on two ropes that otherwise can literally stop the rappeller in their tracks.
You really shouldn't need a link. I'm assuming if you are simul-rapping, that you are using an extended rappel device and a prussik-type backup. Just clip a biner to the belay loop and clip the rope through it so the knotted end rests on the biner.
Again, the point is to keep the knots with you so they can't get into mischief somewhere down below. If that isn't a concern, then just toss the knotted ropes and go,
Since I use the method described, I haven't tested whether there is a potentially serious twisting problem when tying the rope to you when rapping on a single line as in simul-rapping. But I'd say that, compared to the method described, tying the rope directly to you can only have disadvantages; I see no advantage to doing it that way,
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k.l.k
Jan 31, 2011, 3:32 AM
Post #34 of 35
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rgold wrote: Again, the point is to keep the knots with you so they can't get into mischief somewhere down below. If that isn't a concern, then just toss the knotted ropes and go,
well, given this forum, we should underline that potential dangers of dropping the coils (after attaching either the ends or a bight to yourself).
if it's a blind and windy rap, which is one of the likely scenarios for knots getting stuck, there's also potential for problems if you drop yr coils.
i can easily envision n00bs launching off, a stiff wind gankingg the coils in a flake 20ft off the plumb line, the involuntary fireman's belay, and then the ensuing
a. hilarity
b. expensive rescue
c. death by lightning.
cilpping a bight above the knots might actually be a decent means of helping to control coils on the rap. but i've never done it myself.
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rgold
Jan 31, 2011, 5:30 AM
Post #35 of 35
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Ok, to be more precise then, assuming knots are going to be used.
1. Little or no wind
A. Featureless rock: Toss the rope with knotted ends.
B. Featured rock: Rap with knotted ends at harness.
2. High wind: Rap with flaked ropes or, I think better, lower the first person down.
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