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farmerc
Dec 27, 2002, 2:40 AM
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Hey, Lox must be an okay guy if his signature says "free the heel and free the mind"
~Chris
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tim
Dec 27, 2002, 3:05 AM
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Quote:
All you need to get your account banned is a swear ... in your user name
Actually, that just gets a request to change it and/or an offer to do so.
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copperhead
Dec 27, 2002, 3:38 AM
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I have found that people who post anonymously tend to be more abrasive and have more of an attitude, not only on this site, but on others as well. It has been said many times, but still holds true, that what one says will hold much more weight if one’s identity is know. Faceless slander is nothing more than lunchtime bickering between grade-school children. If you want to talk s**t, go ahead, but if you want us to listen, you will have to tell us who you are.
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djmeat
Dec 27, 2002, 4:26 AM
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I think the idea of banning a user so Mr. and Mrs. Prissy public can handle the site is just disgusting.
Silencing dissidents is a common practice of authoritarian governments and institutions. I would hate to think of Rockclimbing.com as an authoritarian site. It would definitely lead me to leave even if only a handful of users were blocked.
I myself am abrasive at times (not so much on this site but in real life). And the individuals that can't handle are almost always the weakest link around anyhow. "Oh my weak convictions and dim intelligence can't handle your barbed, insightful, well organized prodding”. They say in so many words but it really comes out “how rude ban him”
I'm not impressed in the slightest.
edit:to qualify absolute modifier
[ This Message was edited by: djmeat on 2002-12-26 20:27 ]
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tim
Dec 27, 2002, 4:34 AM
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People don't get banned for being rude.
They may be banned for being malicious, but rude or insensitive will just get you run out of town (*cough* Jody *cough*). Not the same.
Quote:
Silencing dissidents is a common practice of authoritarian governments and institutions.
Let's not forget large corporations and Republican administrations, while we're at it. And universities. And libraries...
The whinier elements seem to be confusing social stigmas with censorship, which isn't even worth commenting on. Telling someone 'Shut up!' is very different from gagging them, although this nuance seems lost on a few of the dimmer bulbs.
Anyways, this reminds me, killfiles need to be implemented so that the Delicate N00bs and the Abrasive Pricks can both stick around, yet never the twain shall meet.
Coming soon, to take the piss out of a troll near you.
ps. Something that really bothers me here, is that Blatherskite is not using his real name. Why on earth would we take him seriously? 16 posts and already stewing?!?
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2002-12-26 21:15 ]
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krustyklimber
Dec 27, 2002, 5:33 AM
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Pete would call them "nameless, faceless, dickless detractors"
Not that I would... then again I might too.
Unless you are a real person your concerns don't seem as real... nor do your attacks (Lox).
Most monsters are not very scary at all in the bright light of day!
Jeff
P.S. Tim did you used to be Jabbeaux? Was the name change so you could be more annonymous too?
P.P.S. A capitol K would be so cool!
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bobtheboulderer
Dec 27, 2002, 6:01 AM
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Tim...why don't you jump all over the asses of the people that rip Christianity, or post links to porn, or post pictures of Jesus in a jar of piss? Instead, you continually harp on Jody when he posts what was obviously a joke and there was even argument among the users as to whether it was even bigotted or not. By your above post, you have proven once again to me that you are a hypocritical jack-booted thug! Last I checked Jody was still in the top ten of 'most watched friends'. Where are you? You are making an absolute moron of yourself by continually ragging on Jody over an isolated occurrence when he was one of the most liked and respected users here. No wonder people are leaving this site in droves, with people like you and jt512 and jds100 spewing your intolerance and self-righteousness all over the site. You guys preach tolerance until it applies to something you don't agree with. One user, clymberchk(or something like that) said she lost all respect for Jody over that joke. I then see a post from her in another thread with a link to a porn site...and she lost respect for Jody? You people amaze me.
[ This Message was edited by: bobtheboulderer on 2002-12-26 22:13 ]
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calamity_chk
Dec 27, 2002, 6:49 AM
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quick sidenote:
I did not lose all respect for Jody over the joke. I, did, however, lose some respect for Jody and Steve, and everyone else screaming "lighten up," because they were basically trying to tell me what sort of humor I should or should not have, and I'm not particularly keen on people telling me what I should and should not take offense to.
And, BTW, Tim, what does it matter if the user isnt using his real name. Several obnoxious users avoid their identity, and they're allowed to run rampant on the site. At least this is a legitimate concern on the site and not some flame-happy troll.
PS: Which thread had the porn link??
[ This Message was edited by: clymbr_chk on 2002-12-26 22:59 ]
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duskerhu
Dec 27, 2002, 7:31 AM
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O.M.GOODNESSAKES! Honestly, I can't believe I actually read three pages of this shiz!!!
I deserve at least a free post and user point for that.
I know this is not a democracy here at RC.com but when you talk of banning people 'cuz of "how obnoxious and hateful " they are, or how abrasive or mean or whatever, its "just rediculous!"
Ever hear of the First Ammendment? (I know, see first line of the above paragraph).
You people are adults and should be able to censor yourselves. And if your not an adult, get your mommy to O.K. what you look at/read here so's you won't be offended.
Time to grow up people... Can you BAN the guy that lives next door to you from the heighborhood 'cuz he's abrasive?
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nikegirl
Dec 27, 2002, 7:43 AM
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I censor myself...I've stepped down as administrator here...
flame me away....
fly fly flames of "annoyances"
*trolls*
My ignorance is my bliss...
I no longer HAVE to read these threads...
I no longer HAVE to babysit
I read now/and again for beta ...as well as play.
It's a website...yep...sure is.
any good recommendations on some good sites to frequent?
quotes sites?
climbing sites?
*lemme know*
~T
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jerrygarcia
Dec 27, 2002, 1:21 PM
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DJMeat said:
Quote:
Silencing dissidents is a common practice of authoritarian governments and institutions
You're comparing a forum on a website with the real world and free speach? The reason annoying people are on the internet is for one reason, they can remain anonymous and continue to act as they did in 4th grade, like children. The people who are offended by them most of the time dont want to stir up trouble so they leave. This is a cycle I have seen happen many times. It sucks to see people act this way.....
[ This Message was edited by: jerrygarcia on 2002-12-27 05:22 ]
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hishopper
Dec 27, 2002, 1:26 PM
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Bobtheboulderer...stop!!
You're killing me! I mean, really, there you go interjecting logic into the
system.
(spelling)
[ This Message was edited by: hishopper on 2002-12-27 05:47 ]
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hishopper
Dec 27, 2002, 1:37 PM
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BTW - for those that caught it, his name means nothing. He used the talents he was given to deceive, willingly and with full knowledge. He pretended that it was about worshipping music, but it was really about worshipping him. He spat on the extended family and laughed when they wiped it up and put it in a cup to save.
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tim
Dec 27, 2002, 2:39 PM
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T --
try b.com. see what you think about zero-mod forums and then post a 'trip report'. looking forward to your comments.
BtB --
I ran Jody off because I didn't agree with what he wrote. I never took any action to enforce this. If you watch me discuss things with people when I disagree, you'll see this a lot -- you have to hit me to get me to hit you, but I'll do my best to tear huge holes in your logic (this is in real life, mind you). I don't believe that anyone should be banned from the site for a specific incident, but there are patterns of behavior which are unwelcome here. Jody was not banned -- he left because there was a tidal wave of resentment over his actions.
But in the end, it was Jody who provoked that response. Trevor swooped in and moved the thread, but no one forced Jody to delete his words, or other people to read them.
Say what you like, but this site is *NOT* about censorship. I'm putting a lot of effort into avoiding it, and writing tools to obviate the need for anything resmbling it.
Social stigma != censorship. Nazis are not censored in right-thinking towns, but they are often run off or heckled for their disagreeable views. That's how it should be.
Jeff --
Quote:
Tim did you used to be Jabbeaux? Was the name change so you could be more annonymous too?
Less, actually. If you are familiar with Lox on his own site, he agreed to the name change for the same reasons.
I put more weight on Lox or BobTheBoulderer's opinions than Blatherskite's, because they use their own names to take responsibility. (Lox less so, but, c'est la vie)
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2002-12-27 06:41 ]
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blatherskite
Dec 27, 2002, 2:52 PM
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Riiiggght. So, I'm actually supposed to believe that Lox's name really is "C. Money"? Give me a break.
And why should T have to hang out at b.com? That's what this place is becoming, and she's put a helluva lot of time and energy into helping build something that was originally intended to be a helpful resource to her fellow climbers.
Now, some punk logs on and kicks in the sand castle that she helped build, and she's told to find another beach to play on?
Good god. Maybe I should be more considered with how arrogant and hateful the administration is going to become now that Adam is no longer the lead admin. At least he seemed to care about the site and the users.
[ This Message was edited by: blatherskite on 2002-12-27 06:56 ]
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hishopper
Dec 27, 2002, 3:04 PM
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BTW.. I know it's off topic, but are killfiles functional?
(Maybe now this an off topic thread it should be moved to Website where it won't appear on the front page shaming us all)
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sarhawp
Dec 27, 2002, 3:55 PM
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I may not like what the man says, but I will fight to keep his right to say what he wants so that I may say what I want too.
If you don't like what he says, ignore him, don't respond.
If other people feel a need to leave, then that's their problem. They can go somewhere else (I beg them to show me utopia).
This is America (home of the first amendment), and although this is a private site, I beg and plead to not ban user's for sharing their opinion (even if other's don't agree) as long as he is not breaking the 'rules and regulations' of this site.
Maybe we should ban all the women who have opinions? or the blacks? Hopefully you get my drift.
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tim
Dec 27, 2002, 4:23 PM
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Quote:
This is America (home of the first amendment), and although this is a private site, I beg and plead to not ban user's for sharing their opinion (even if other's don't agree) as long as he is not breaking the 'rules and regulations' of this site.
That is exactly the policy. No begging and pleading needed.
As for killfiles, I'm working on them. Things have been stagnant here with regards to development, which is a shame, because it is simply not practical to babysit *ALL* of the whining, crying, "I contribute by visiting the site and starting flamewars" users who have graced us with their presence lately. They can babysit themselves.
I care a great deal about the direction of the site, as do Trevor, Adam, and Jared. We are all human and fallible, which is why I would like to reduce the volume of obvious black-and-white decisions requiring manual intervention, and allow mods/admins to focus on more significant problems.
I am more concerned with the bitterness and apathy on the part of some old-timersm, than with the vocal disruption of some newer problem users. People who break the rules repeatedly will be dealt with according to the site policies. Nothing too hard about that. What's hard is agreeing on a direction for the site that retains the good qualities of the past, and allows for positive future growth.
Fiend (Mark) made a very good suggestion in terms of 'focus groups' for vetting disciplinary actions across a representative selection of users. That is the sort of suggestion that is most valuable to the site.
(edit: clarified position on site direction)
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2002-12-27 08:47 ]
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blatherskite
Dec 27, 2002, 4:52 PM
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Forgive the long post ..
Dont get me wrong. I'm a big believer in the First Amendment, and even invest time with EFF.org, an organization rooted in maintaining basic rights and civil liberties in electronic media.
I'm not talking about people who simply dont follow concensus. People who know me personally can testify to the fact that I regularly go against the grain. Big deal. However, I refuse to silently watch as friends and fellow climbers get punched and kicked by a bunch of bullies.
I am frustrated to see users, Mods, and even an Admin (nikegirl) leave over all this crap, especially since a lot of effort was put into creating a site that most of the people around here grew to enjoy as a friendly and helpful resource for climbers of varying ages and degrees of experience/talent. Now they're being ran out of town by a bunch of whiny punks, and I, for one, plan to kick and scream a lot before I get ran out of town. The fact of the matter is, I've made tons of friends and climbing partners thanks to this site, and watching it fall apart due to a lack of clear direction is like watching a close friend slip into a drug addiction.
Personally speaking, I love this site and rather enjoyed the direction it was taking. Now, a group of punks have found their way to our admittedly imperfect sandbox and are p*ssing all over it. What's worse, the people who are supposed to be in a position of authority around here are so tired of taking crap off of these punks, that these brats are being allowed to run free. And, though I'm as tired of the meta-discussion about the site as anyone else, I refuse to just shut up and watch helplessly as something that I dearly love falls apart.
And, if the mods/admins are gonna be called nazis, give them free reign. Let them delete posts at will. Of course, even with encouragement, I seriously doubt that any of them would do this; they have too much respect for the users around here to conduct themselves that way. They're tired of being beaten down, though, and I'm tired of watching it.
BTW, Running Jody away over the whole racist joke thing was a little extreme and bragging about it on public forums is immature and disrespectful. ("Look at me and how mean I can be to positive and contributing members." .. come on.) .. and this is the voice currently representing the administration of the site. How sad. If I werent so attached to so many users here, I would have lost all respect for this site. I've seen better, though, and know that the people here are capable of better.
PS: This thread wasnt intended to be about name-calling and finger-pointing so much as it's about "how rude does someone have to be before getting banned"? Seems to me that the site is slipping quickly into anarchy, and I'm just curious as to how far things have to go before someone with some actual authority around here will step in.
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tim
Dec 27, 2002, 5:55 PM
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Quote:
The push to phpBB2 was mine. I know it's a hard thing to implement given how hacked phpBB is right now but it would solve many of our current problems by allowing sticky threads for rules and popular posts, encrypting passwords, and generally making the forums run more smoothly. Unfortunately I don't have the technical skills to help implement.
And therein lies the problem. I can, and I do, and you need to understand why. I can effect positive changes that you neither have the time nor the experience to implement. I recognize, and have publicly stated, that I do not wish to try and define site policy on my own, nor do I want to make judgement calls about moderation or administration. I like to maintain the server and write code. We could easily complement each other, if you gave a $#!& about the site anymore.
If you don't, why not leave? Or tell Jared and Trevor what's bugging you. I act on their wishes. I act on suggestions. I don't act on ad-hominem attacks except to laugh at them. I don't need your abuse -- I have people lining up to abuse me on a daily basis. That's *why* I'm willing to be the Bad Guy, and deliver unpopular decisions.
You and Adam both take credit for ideas. Ideas are like assholes -- we all have them. The difference is, Adam seems to understand that without implementation, ideas are useless. Adam still gives a damn about the site. I really did appreciate your suggestions, but now I think you're being an ass by throwing your current pity party and extolling the virtues of your apathy.
Burnouts are useless. Don't become one.
(edit: this is my final post on this thread, and possibly my final post in my capacity as an admin. I believe I can get a lot more done here if I take Mark's focus group approach, and just write code to support/enforce site policies. Don't bother asking any questions of me in this thread; if you have one, send a PM and I'll try to answer it. I just don't have the time to keep posting replies here, and I have articulated all the things that I felt needed mentioning, so I'm going to go back to finishing the killfile implementation.)
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2002-12-27 10:13 ]
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blatherskite
Dec 27, 2002, 6:09 PM
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It seems that my frustration is interfering with my ability to clearly express my thoughts on the situation.
I'm having some lunch to boost the blood sugar and will edit my response so that the seeming hypocrisy is (hopefully) cleared up.
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wildtrail
Dec 27, 2002, 6:12 PM
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Don't worry about people like headcrak/Lox. In talking to most people on this site, they don't even like him, nor pay attention to anything he says. Yes, he does devalue the site a bit due to the fact he's like most people in this politically correct world of bullsh-t. You know the type. They see something you say, pick it apart, grasp for straws, and turn it into what they think it means, which is always imagined. Jody's joke is a good example of how people like that do what they do.
I'm learning they are best ignored as they are a waste of time to debate with. Their arguements are alwasy stale and repetative and based on no obvious logic, if any at all. They aren't much of anything and are best left to ramble and rant. Eventually they finish.
Many people have contacted Trevor asking about the removal of said people and their times will come. Not that anyone should care. Every time I see a post by one of those people, I just say to myself, "Hey! More dribble from the unintelligent!" Then I skip it and move through the thread as if their posts aren't even there.
It's also best that if the thread is controvesial, or slightly controversial as these morons turn everything into garbage with their rhetoric, to just ignore the thread. No one really pays attention to them anyway. What's the point. Listening to people like that is like watching TV. You actually lose IQ points.
Steve
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climbchick
Dec 27, 2002, 6:42 PM
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Well said, Steve.
I too simply roll my eyes now when I see yet another spew from lox/doosh/headcrak. It was causing a bit of a stir at first but I believe most people have figured out that he's not someone to take seriously and have frankly grown bored with him and the repetitive whining.
Apparently, though, some users find it difficult to deal with his insults. The kill-file will be an excellent way to handle him and people like him and I'm looking forward to seeing it implemented. I think it's very appropriate to leave it up to each individual user to decide whether or not they want to read the crap from the trolls/pricks/spraylords on the site. It shouldn't have to be up to the admins to try to decide whether people are "nice" enough to keep coming here . . that is a very subjective judgement call and what one person finds offensive, another deems hilarious. I don't think people should ever be banned for being unpleasant, only for breaking a black and white rule of the site.
I doubt if headcrak will even bother to stick around when he realizes that most people are ignoring him.
~Yvette
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krustyklimber
Dec 27, 2002, 7:10 PM
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Tim writes:
I am more concerned with the bitterness and apathy on the part of some old-timers
Could you give us some examples of who you mean, do you consisder me in that group?
How could we not be? It seems only the users or made to follow the sites policies, Admins aren't and in many cases mods aren't either. This seems a breeding ground for apathy...
I can effect positive changes that you neither have the time nor the experience to implement...
Then why don't you actually do it, instead of just saying "how cool you are, 'cause you can"???
I'm willing to be the Bad Guy
That is blindingly obvious!!!
...now I think you're being an ass by throwing your current pity party and extolling the virtues of your apathy.
You're the one who accused us of apathy, don't get pissy about the response you evoke...
this is my final post on this thread
If it was only true...
Don't bother asking any questions of me in this thread;
Why when things get tough do you leave? You want to scream out as the voice of authority... then run off saying "it's not me, tell someone else"... How chickensh*t!?!
Mark writes:
I'm sick of having people bitch and complain about every single poll I've put up without having one valid suggestion offered since the beginning...
Just on a side note... I once made a valid suggestion about your poles which you humourously included in the poll... so there has been at least one time where someone did not bitch and did contribute positively.
The only thing I really do is check the community forum and my PMs to see how my friends are doing.
I feel exactly the same way! As my ability to climb has stagnated so has my desire to post about it. I once was a needed contributor to the aid forum, but Pete's latest linking of all his info has rendered me no longer needed there.
I did answer the same old stinky shoe thread the other day so I am doing my best to help out but without any reward or anything to take pride in here I am finding it more difficult. But I am still trying.
Steve writes:
Don't worry about people like headcrak/Lox.
You Steve could easily be included in the group.
In talking to most people on this site, they don't even like him, nor pay attention to anything he says.
Again Steve, you could be considered part of this group too.
Yes, he does devalue the site a bit due to the fact he's like most people in this politically correct world of bullsh-t. You know the type. They see something you say, pick it apart, grasp for straws, and turn it into what they think it means, which is always imagined.
One more time, this could be you.
Jody's joke is a good example of how people like that do what they do.
You keep referencing to "Jody's joke"... the way I remember it you were half of the team that did that rude and unwanted thing. Don't forget it was Steve and Jody's joke...
As these morons turn everything into garbage with their rhetoric, to just ignore the thread.
Like the whole East coast coffee thing y'all do long before any of us on the West coast wake up? Or the "who slept with whom" thread?
Yvette writes:
The kill-file will be an excellent way to handle him and people like him and I'm looking forward to seeing it implemented.
I for one am not interested in any outside censorship of MY thoughts, I can do a plenty good enough job of it for myself.
I think it's very appropriate to leave it up to each individual user to decide whether or not they want to read the crap from the trolls/pricks/spraylords on the site.
Then why do we need a killfile or whatever kind of censorship Tim would like to implement?
I don't think people should ever be banned for being unpleasant, only for breaking a black and white rule of the site.
I couldn't agree more! And even when black and white rules are indeed broken... nothing is usually done about it, as far as banning a user. Post are move editted or deleted, but that I know of no user has ever been permanantly banned... what good are rules unenforced, or enforced only on those who the enforcers don't like?
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-12-27 11:19 ]
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atg200
Dec 27, 2002, 7:17 PM
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I don't think you understand what a killfile is krusty. it is a per user way of eliminating a user, and is a preference - not censorship. for instance, say krustyclimber can't stand atg200 and never wants to see my posts again. throw atg200 in your killfile, and voila! you don't have to put up with me anymore, yet the rest of the people on the site still can.
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