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jakedatc
Mar 30, 2011, 3:23 AM
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mattm wrote: jakedatc wrote: I started this thread because i didn't think many people knew about it and didn't think that Petzl would have release a product with that kind of a flaw. I was incorrect. Petzl knows about the problem, they have chosen to ignore it and produce it anyway. Contacting them would be pointless. Lets cut to the chase here. It's not a flaw period end of story. There's no safety issue At ALL. A flaw would be something where the device fails to perform as designed. People just don't like a usage/performance limitation that the GG1 did not have. Fine. Petzl could have added that in a manual but chose instead to have it as a supplement online. 10 pages in English would be one he'll of an addendum given the multilingual nature of instructions found in the box. Let's stop calling it a design flaw [sky falling] and instead say there's a change in it's "manual of arms" that you don't like.
So this is how the gri gri 2 is supposed to look while in operation? Funny because it looks like it is locked up and stuck against a sharp edge to me.
keep gargling petzl's balls matt.. it is a flaw. It should not be able to happen, it is not a correct situation.
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mattm
Mar 30, 2011, 3:46 AM
Post #77 of 102
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jakedatc wrote: mattm wrote: jakedatc wrote: I started this thread because i didn't think many people knew about it and didn't think that Petzl would have release a product with that kind of a flaw. I was incorrect. Petzl knows about the problem, they have chosen to ignore it and produce it anyway. Contacting them would be pointless. Lets cut to the chase here. It's not a flaw period end of story. There's no safety issue At ALL. A flaw would be something where the device fails to perform as designed. People just don't like a usage/performance limitation that the GG1 did not have. Fine. Petzl could have added that in a manual but chose instead to have it as a supplement online. 10 pages in English would be one he'll of an addendum given the multilingual nature of instructions found in the box. Let's stop calling it a design flaw [sky falling] and instead say there's a change in it's "manual of arms" that you don't like. So this is how the gri gri 2 is supposed to look while in operation? Funny because it looks like it is locked up and stuck against a sharp edge to me. [image]http://neilshaulbag.smugmug.com/photos/1178572189_QZuCi-M.jpg[/image] keep gargling petzl's balls matt.. it is a flaw. It should not be able to happen, it is not a correct situation.
Using that same logic I could say that nearly all locking biners are flawed because the gate could get caught on my belay loop and be cross loaded.
The advice I quoted above from rgold is worth another read.
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notapplicable
Mar 30, 2011, 4:12 AM
Post #78 of 102
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Although I do consider it a design flaw, it does not appear to be a safety issue and (after reading this thread) is not something that changes my mind about wanting to own one.
I still think the biggest problem with all this is the way Petzl has handled the issue to date. They should not be leaving their customers to get surprised by this in the field. Although apparently straightforward to clear, it is pretty spooky looking at first glance. Fact is, Petzl dropped the ball.
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j_ung
Mar 30, 2011, 12:51 PM
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I've been wondering if maybe I should buy a few old-style Gri-gris and just hang on to them for a few years.
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shoo
Mar 30, 2011, 1:19 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Although I do consider it a design flaw, it does not appear to be a safety issue and (after reading this thread) is not something that changes my mind about wanting to own one. I still think the biggest problem with all this is the way Petzl has handled the issue to date. They should not be leaving their customers to get surprised by this in the field. Although apparently straightforward to clear, it is pretty spooky looking at first glance. Fact is, Petzl dropped the ball.
+ 1
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angry
Mar 30, 2011, 3:18 PM
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Sorry Jake, I just can't see the little rope flip as an issue. Not even a little bit, it simply is only worth mentioning and moving on.
The 2 will ultimately get a bad name due to it's durability. I'd love to see a hardness test, I think the aluminum is softer than on the original and in direct comparison is thinner. I'd be in love with the damn thing if that gold plate was steel. Weight on a sport device is not a factor.
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shotwell
Mar 30, 2011, 3:26 PM
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If I hadn't received mine as a gift, I'd be concerned about the durability. As it stands now, I have two original GriGris waiting for use after I wear through my 2. All things told, I imagine I have something like 20 years of GriGris stored up and waiting. When those wear out, I would definitely buy a GriGri(3?) with a steel friction plate. That thing would have a virtually unlimited life span and, as you said, weight is really irrelevant for this device.
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mattm
Mar 30, 2011, 6:28 PM
Post #84 of 102
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angry wrote: Sorry Jake, I just can't see the little rope flip as an issue. Not even a little bit, it simply is only worth mentioning and moving on. The 2 will ultimately get a bad name due to it's durability. I'd love to see a hardness test, I think the aluminum is softer than on the original and in direct comparison is thinner. I'd be in love with the damn thing if that gold plate was steel. Weight on a sport device is not a factor.
Are you seeing the "premature" wear on the cam or side plates? Elsewhere? Pictures? In my experience with a GG1, the two spots to look at where the rolled lip of the side plate or the aluminum "pinch plate" opposite the cam. The only GG1s I ever retired were GYM Top Rope ones.
My original and still in good condition GG1 is going on 18 years old now. I figure it's got another 20 in it since it'll now split time with my GG2.
(This post was edited by mattm on Mar 30, 2011, 6:54 PM)
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shotwell
Mar 30, 2011, 6:32 PM
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Matt,
Thanks for trying to bring some sanity to the GG2 thread. Who would have known that an easy to fix 'problem' could be such a tempest in a teapot?
Anyway, thanks for stepping in and taking some heat. I definitely think it is important to stop the kind of fear-mongering mentality we saw in this thread.
Edited to add: I see early wear on the aluminum side plate. I'll let Angry speak for himself.
(This post was edited by shotwell on Mar 30, 2011, 6:35 PM)
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spikeddem
Mar 30, 2011, 7:16 PM
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cracklover wrote: angry wrote: Sorry Jake, I just can't see the little rope flip as an issue. Not even a little bit, it simply is only worth mentioning and moving on. The 2 will ultimately get a bad name due to it's durability. I'd love to see a hardness test, I think the aluminum is softer than on the original and in direct comparison is thinner. I'd be in love with the damn thing if that gold plate was steel. Weight on a sport device is not a factor. Different devices have different flaws. The flaw in the original Gri Gri was that no-one ever had to buy a second one because it lasted 20+ years. They fixed that in the new version.  All kidding aside - I don't buy VTG's point that you need to "mind the device" better. You simply can't mind your device while boinking. It may be that with the new device, boinking simply won't work well. That's unfortunate, and it's up to Petzl whether they think that will have a big enough impact on consumers to change the design a little (if that's even possible to do without causing other issues). GO
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jt512
Mar 30, 2011, 7:34 PM
Post #88 of 102
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spikeddem wrote: cracklover wrote: angry wrote: Sorry Jake, I just can't see the little rope flip as an issue. Not even a little bit, it simply is only worth mentioning and moving on. The 2 will ultimately get a bad name due to it's durability. I'd love to see a hardness test, I think the aluminum is softer than on the original and in direct comparison is thinner. I'd be in love with the damn thing if that gold plate was steel. Weight on a sport device is not a factor. Different devices have different flaws. The flaw in the original Gri Gri was that no-one ever had to buy a second one because it lasted 20+ years. They fixed that in the new version. All kidding aside - I don't buy VTG's point that you need to "mind the device" better. You simply can't mind your device while boinking. It may be that with the new device, boinking simply won't work well. That's unfortunate, and it's up to Petzl whether they think that will have a big enough impact on consumers to change the design a little (if that's even possible to do without causing other issues). GO Tonight I'm trying my damndest to see how everyone is getting this issue to happen with their batmanning/boinking.
If you can't get the rope caught by boinking, could you put it in that configuration intentionally, and then check how difficult it is to fix with the rope under tension, and let us know?
Jay
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jakedatc
Mar 30, 2011, 7:40 PM
Post #89 of 102
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cracklover wrote: angry wrote: Sorry Jake, I just can't see the little rope flip as an issue. Not even a little bit, it simply is only worth mentioning and moving on. The 2 will ultimately get a bad name due to it's durability. I'd love to see a hardness test, I think the aluminum is softer than on the original and in direct comparison is thinner. I'd be in love with the damn thing if that gold plate was steel. Weight on a sport device is not a factor. Different devices have different flaws. The flaw in the original Gri Gri was that no-one ever had to buy a second one because it lasted 20+ years. They fixed that in the new version. All kidding aside - I don't buy VTG's point that you need to "mind the device" better. You simply can't mind your device while boinking. It may be that with the new device, boinking simply won't work well. That's unfortunate, and it's up to Petzl whether they think that will have a big enough impact on consumers to change the design a little (if that's even possible to do without causing other issues). GO
i posted on petzl's facebook site and their response was that while it is an annoyance it was not a safety issue and i don't foresee any changes.
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shoo
Mar 30, 2011, 7:55 PM
Post #90 of 102
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jt512 wrote: spikeddem wrote: Tonight I'm trying my damndest to see how everyone is getting this issue to happen with their batmanning/boinking. If you can't get the rope caught by boinking, could you put it in that configuration intentionally, and then check how difficult it is to fix with the rope under tension, and let us know? Jay
+1. I am vaguely considering replacing my cinch with the grigri2. Been playing with my friend's GG2. Gotta say, really like it. Far less fiddly than the cinch, miles easier to lower, generally more predictable.
This issue seems like a minor irritation to me rather than a deal breaker, though I would be very irritated if it jammed while I was flinging myself upward for boinking, crashing me back into the ground quicker than expected.
My speculation is that this issue was discovered relatively late in the development process (post first production batch, maybe?) and decided it wasn't enough of an issue to warrant redesign. I suspect they tested the crap out of it first to reach this conclusion. At the moment I don't have any reason to believe that they were doing something wrong releasing it into the public as it stands. However, seems like this issue could have been addressed with a simple nesting plate coming off the lever arm. More weight certainly, but at this point, worrying about weight in sport climbing is laughable.
I also have to agree with whoever pointed out that with the recent nomic issues, it seems like Petzl isn't spending quite enough time testing this stuff in the real world. In general, I think Petzl is one of the most consistent and trustworthy brands out there. However, these recent issues have been worrisome.
(This post was edited by shoo on Mar 30, 2011, 7:56 PM)
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patto
Mar 30, 2011, 7:55 PM
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And how is this a problem? Has sport climbing really made people so dumb that they can release a belay device?
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Jooler
Mar 30, 2011, 8:47 PM
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After reading this thread, I tried exactly that the other day. Couldn't get the rope to become caught while using a 10.5 rope. I think this issue would pertain to thinner ropes. I proceeded to put the rope manually behind the arm to test how hard it was to fix. While weighted, a simple tug of the brake strand was enough to shift the angle of the GG2 and pop the rope out from behind. No biggy.
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majid_sabet
Mar 30, 2011, 9:00 PM
Post #93 of 102
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RC is the number one place to bring up GG's issues and believe it or not, petzl monitors this site like a junk yard dog looking to catch any sort of trouble that may hurt mighty petzl
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 30, 2011, 10:02 PM)
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jbro_135
Mar 30, 2011, 9:28 PM
Post #94 of 102
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majid_sabet wrote: RC is the number one place to bring up GG's issues and believe it or not, petzl monitors this site like a gunk yard dog looking to catch any sort of trouble that may hurt mighty petzl
i get it
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wannabe
Mar 30, 2011, 9:55 PM
Post #96 of 102
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I say keep an eye out while using the grigri2 right now. I had the opportunity to use a friends grigri2 on sat at the Garden of the Gods, it is a very sandy area and that might have contributed to the hiccup. I was rappelling with the grigri2 after a two pitch route because I left my atc in the car, midway through the first rappel the device locked up. I was hanging by the device and inspecting it while trying to pull the lever open. I was applying enough force that I thought I might break the handle/device. The rope looked as if it was trying to wedge between the plate and cam. I had a sharp bend over the lip of the grigri2 and moved the rope up and away from the lip to free the blockage. I didn't have a problem after that but I was a little concerned as to why the device blocked, and the amount of force I was applying to the lever without any rope movement.
BTW I was using a beal joker 9.1mm
(This post was edited by wannabe on Mar 30, 2011, 10:08 PM)
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climbtheplanet
Apr 11, 2011, 6:09 AM
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notapplicable wrote: Although I do consider it a design flaw, it does not appear to be a safety issue and (after reading this thread) is not something that changes my mind about wanting to own one.
Agreed.
A few points:
1). Honestly, after reading through the thread, all this kind of makes me want to buy both (I've borrowed for an embarrassingly long time)! Heck, just buy one from Backcountry or REI and if the thing scares you get your money back.
2). People keep saying the GriGri is a sport climbing device and seem to forget that locking-assist belay devices have basically become, if not mandatory, at least very deeply rooted tools in the aid and route development world. You would not catch me on a wall without a GriGri, period. I have used Eddy's a bunch and much prefer the GriGri. I can see how this issue may be enough of a nuisance that I would want the original on a wall while using fatter more durable ropes, but I would like the 2 for the better control of the thinner ropes I use while sport climbing, which is the other major improvement besides weight and size. Oh, what a conundrum. . .
3). Batmanning is definitely yarding on the belay side rope to gain height and boinging is pulling up on the climber side, quickly letting go so the belayer can take any slack possible - used when the belayer side rope is unreachable (a maneuver that would result in a "boing" noise in any self-respecting cartoon). I thought that was common knowledge. . .but maybe I just hangdog way to much.
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healyje
Apr 11, 2011, 6:35 AM
Post #98 of 102
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majid_sabet wrote: RC is the number one place to bring up GG's issues and believe it or not, petzl monitors this site like a junk yard dog looking to catch any sort of trouble that may hurt mighty petzl
I agree, if someone on RC can't screw the gg2 pooch in some new and remarkable way Petzl could never think of then no one can.
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tower_climber
Apr 11, 2011, 10:24 AM
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wannabe wrote: I was rappelling with the grigri2 after a two pitch route because I left my atc in the car
IIRC, the GriGri2 instructions do not include any mention of rappelling technique or indication that the device is designed to be used for rappelling. The original did include these references. It is my understanding that Petzl does not endorse the GriGri2 as a rappelling device.
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gosharks
Apr 11, 2011, 11:20 AM
Post #100 of 102
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tower_climber wrote: wannabe wrote: I was rappelling with the grigri2 after a two pitch route because I left my atc in the car IIRC, the GriGri2 instructions do not include any mention of rappelling technique or indication that the device is designed to be used for rappelling. The original did include these references. It is my understanding that Petzl does not endorse the GriGri2 as a rappelling device.
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