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sungam
Aug 10, 2011, 1:06 PM
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Stoves wrote: No one here mentioned attaching yourself to your partner as an extra safety measure. Is this standard practice?
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tolman_paul
Aug 10, 2011, 7:32 PM
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Let's see, you double the load on the anchor, you increase the chances of the rope abrading against the rock and edges due to differential movement of the partners and the doubled load, a single failure will lead to multiple fatalities, hmm, why would I do this???
I've always had a healthy respect for rapelling, i.e. I avoid it whenever possible and give it the utmost attention. I never rush it, as it's something you always have to do right.
The only place I can see for a double rappel is a spire that doesn't have anchors, or damaged anchors, and it's your only option.
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healyje
Aug 10, 2011, 7:42 PM
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StuMsg wrote: healyje wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: It's fun. Speed aside, it really can be more fun. Hate to be a curmudgeon, but nothing about rappelling should ever - ever - be considered 'fun', particularly in a multipitch setting. I will say, however, that Potrero Chico is probably the one place it may make some sense, given what the place is and the fact it has reasonable anchors from what I hear. Why not? Everybody has their own opinion of what is fun and what is not, if they can do it responsibly why shouldn't they have fun doing it? I find it fun (just like almost every other aspect of climbing) not in the this is dangerous and I could die way, more the I climbed this, look at that view, no need to rush, warm down kind of way. Stu
Rappelling is one of the most dangerous things a climber can do. You are wholly dependent on gear versus your hands and feet, fuckups are typically fatal (as was the case two weeks ago at our crag).
Fun is not a word I would ever use in association with rappelling and my take on those who do is they are still novices and inexperienced in a variety of aspects that constitute a 'seasoned' climber.
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rangerrob
Aug 15, 2011, 12:27 AM
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Tolman is right. The extra risk is not worth the savings in time. Seriously, unless you're rappeling the Trango Tower you're only going to save a few minutes or a half hour. Maybe a better option would be to learn how to move more efficiently, while still being safe. On long alpine routes, two partners can rap a 60m rap, and set up the nect rap in under 10 minutes. Even if you're route is 20+ piches long, that's only going to take you 3 hours. Simul rapping might save you 15 or twenty minutes.
Keep in mind when in terrain where simul rapping many many pitches you will inevitably be in rock fall danger anyway....alpine terrain.
It's a simple risk/benefit analysis. For me, the added risk outweighs the benefit.
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gunkiemike
Aug 15, 2011, 6:01 PM
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Guran wrote: Stoves wrote: No one here mentioned attaching yourself to your partner as an extra safety measure. Is this standard practice? I've only ever simul-rapped for the sake of practice. When we did, we stayed attached via a double length sling. Seemed like a good precaution...
I've heard about using a sling too.
But if there are knots in the ends of the rope, and each climber is protected by an autoblock of some kind, then what added safety does the sling provide?
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Guran
Aug 16, 2011, 8:41 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: I've heard about using a sling too. But if there are knots in the ends of the rope, and each climber is protected by an autoblock of some kind, then what added safety does the sling provide?
If one climber gets stuck somehow, or more realistically steps on a ledge and unweights the rope the sling limits rope movement at the anchor.
It does add to the CF potential though.
Come to think about it, the only time simul-rapping would save more than marginal time is if there are more than two climbers. A party of four might save some time on a long rapell by going two at a time.
Still wouldn't do it unless it was in a real every-second-counts-scenario and all climbers were trained and confident with the technique.
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sspssp
Aug 17, 2011, 6:55 PM
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Guran wrote: Still wouldn't do it unless it was in a real every-second-counts-scenario and all climbers were trained and confident with the technique.
And how is every climber going to be trained and confident in the technique unless you routinely do it even when every second doesn't count?
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Guran
Aug 17, 2011, 8:04 PM
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sspssp wrote: And how is every climber going to be trained and confident in the technique unless you routinely do it even when every second doesn't count?
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gwyn
Aug 17, 2011, 8:10 PM
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When I went canyoneering, what we did to speed up the rappels for a large group was to use a "stone knot" (http://canyoneeringusa.com/...nots/stone/index.php) to fix the rope and while one person was on rappel, the next person was setting up to rappel; last person removes the knot and rappels on the double strand.
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climbingtrash
Aug 18, 2011, 3:21 AM
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gwyn wrote: When I went canyoneering, what we did to speed up the rappels for a large group was to use a "stone knot" ( http://canyoneeringusa.com/...nots/stone/index.php) to fix the rope and while one person was on rappel, the next person was setting up to rappel; last person removes the knot and rappels on the double strand.
Canyoneering rope geekery is all that is. Did you go canyoneering with a guiding company?
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gwyn
Aug 18, 2011, 3:56 AM
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I see now that I ought to have quoted to what I was responding:
Guran wrote: Come to think about it, the only time simul-rapping would save more than marginal time is if there are more than two climbers. A party of four might save some time on a long rapell by going two at a time.
climbingtrash wrote: Canyoneering rope geekery is all that is.
Geekery it may be, but it does make for efficient rappelling for groups larger than two and since the line is fixed, there is no issue with differences in weight, doubling the load on the anchor, or other issues mentioned in this thread.
climbingtrash wrote: Did you go canyoneering with a guiding company?
Curious why you ask about a guiding company. Is it relevant?
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healyje
Aug 18, 2011, 10:01 AM
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gwyn wrote: When I went canyoneering, what we did to speed up the rappels for a large group was to use a "stone knot" ( http://canyoneeringusa.com/...nots/stone/index.php) to fix the rope and while one person was on rappel, the next person was setting up to rappel; last person removes the knot and rappels on the double strand.
Hard to express the many ways that both of those are a bad idea. The fact that commercial operations use an expedient method does not in any respect make it either a good idea or remotely advisable.
(This post was edited by healyje on Aug 18, 2011, 10:02 AM)
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Guran
Aug 18, 2011, 10:24 AM
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healyje wrote: gwyn wrote: When I went canyoneering, what we did to speed up the rappels for a large group was to use a "stone knot" ( http://canyoneeringusa.com/...nots/stone/index.php) to fix the rope and while one person was on rappel, the next person was setting up to rappel; last person removes the knot and rappels on the double strand. Hard to express the many ways that both of those are a bad idea. The fact that commercial operations use an expedient method does not in any respect make it either a good idea or remotely advisable.
Why? It seems quite clever to me. Definitely better than the "double rappel" discussed in this thread.
A agree completely that raps are not to be played around with for fun. However crowded descents are commonplace and I welcome any safe way to speed up a descent in case there should actually be a hurry one day.
Picture three or more parties on the same descent with a thunderstorm approaching, rapell stations crowded for every pitch etc.
So please explain why that technique is bad per se, given that there already are several people queuing up
and that speed is a factor.
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csproul
Aug 18, 2011, 12:34 PM
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gwyn wrote: ...since the line is fixed, there is no issue with differences in weight, doubling the load on the anchor, or other issues mentioned in this thread...
Seems like an ok idea for rappelling with a large group, not that you're likely to find me ever rappelling with a large group.
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gwyn
Aug 18, 2011, 5:59 PM
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healyje wrote: Hard to express the many ways that both of those are a bad idea. The fact that commercial operations use an expedient method does not in any respect make it either a good idea or remotely advisable.
Please try. I'm curious.
csproul wrote: gwyn wrote: ...since the line is fixed, there is no issue with differences in weight, doubling the load on the anchor, or other issues mentioned in this thread... Why is the load on the anchor any different whether the line is fixed or not?
Poor writing on my part. Since the line is fixed, and only one person is rappelling at a given time....
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healyje
Aug 18, 2011, 8:39 PM
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Guran wrote: However crowded descents are commonplace and I welcome any safe way to speed up a descent in case there should actually be a hurry one day.
I would suggest anyplace where "crowded descents are commonplace" should be avoided like the plague. It would seem like basic common sense to me, but once a lemming mentality sets in all bets are off and 'rappelling safety' all but becomes an oxymoron.
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camhead
Aug 18, 2011, 9:14 PM
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I've done it a bit, there is a time and place for it. On longer routes in Mexico, it does save a lot of time.
Gri gris are key.
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notapplicable
Aug 18, 2011, 11:08 PM
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healyje wrote: Guran wrote: However crowded descents are commonplace and I welcome any safe way to speed up a descent in case there should actually be a hurry one day. I would suggest anyplace where " crowded descents are commonplace" should be avoided like the plague. It would seem like basic common sense to me, but once a lemming mentality sets in all bets are off and 'rappelling safety' all but becomes an oxymoron.
At Seneca Rocks the rap routes are limited and not always straightforward to reach so most everyone uses the aptly named "traffic jam" chimney. It's common practice for one party to set up a double rope 60m rap which just reaches the ground. Then that party and anyone else queued up shares the ropes. Simul rapping is both more efficient and the courteous thing to do so the ropes owners can get back to their day of climbing.
Obviously if someone is uncomfortable then they should avoid it but otherwise, it is a useful tool under certain circumstances.
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healyje
Aug 18, 2011, 11:49 PM
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There are certainly places with few options, Solar Slab in Red Rock is another. I try to avoid them whenever possible.
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Guran
Aug 19, 2011, 7:44 AM
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healyje wrote: Guran wrote: However crowded descents are commonplace and I welcome any safe way to speed up a descent in case there should actually be a hurry one day. I would suggest anyplace where " crowded descents are commonplace" should be avoided like the plague. It would seem like basic common sense to me, but once a lemming mentality sets in all bets are off and 'rappelling safety' all but becomes an oxymoron.
Look, You made your point and, in principal, I agree completely. Rapells are not to be toyed around with.
However there are times when"speed is safety" is more than a catch phrase. Even on descent.
As much as I'd like to avoid any descent that might become crowded it really can't be helped unless I give up a lot of climbing. Since I don't have any multipith climbing nearby I don't often get the luxury of having such a route to myself. Three parties are enough to clog up a rappell piste.
So rappell queues happen. The need to get down quickly (while still safely) also happens. While I certainly try to avoid them, both have happened to me. If I keep climbing long enough they will coincide one day.
When that happens I want to know, beforehand, if there is some way to speed up without sacrificing too much safety.
A simul-rappell might save time but the way I've tried it that saving did not make up for the extra safety measures required. (that is a reasonably safe simul-rappell did not really save eny time)
That stone knot seemed to me as one way to keep a reasonable safety margin while still gain considerable efficiency when there are more than two climbers.
So, respecting your judgement, do you have any particular objection to that technique apart from the general rule that one should avoid any situation where it is needed?
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mbrd
Aug 19, 2011, 8:01 AM
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ladyscarlett wrote: The reliable safety precaution I take whether climbing, rappelling, hiking etc is to carry all the smokes/alcohol. I've noticed the team does well with vested interest that I get to the ground safe...
finally, a useful piece of advice in this thread!
this is why i always travel with more bourbon than anyone else. i am the retreat cache...
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mbrd
Aug 19, 2011, 8:27 AM
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Guran wrote: A simul-rappell might save time but the way I've tried it that saving did not make up for the extra safety measures required. (that is a reasonably safe simul-rappell did not really save any time) That stone knot seemed to me as one way to keep a reasonable safety margin while still gain considerable efficiency when there are more than two climbers.
as a stick in the mud myself, i have to think that even with the stone knot, the time saved might not be that great. i think maybe what healyje and others critical of this practice are getting at (and i am kinda sleep deprived, so if it was explicitly stated earlier in the thread, sorry for the redundancy) is that when climbing, raps are usually the thing done when one is most wiped out and susceptible to fucking up- and raps are where a small fuckup is most often magnified into a 32fps squared, one way trip. the simplest approach to a rappel is usually the safest, and fastest, even with large parties. remember, everyone should be watching everyone else, which is easier with one person going over the lip at a time.
to be fair, it was not lost on me that you did not necessarily refer to "simul rapping", but rather to utilizing both lines individually and alternately.
emergency raps that demand speed usually come at precisely the time the team is most ill equipped to mentally process the process.
on the other hand, if you're sport rapping, and rapping is the primary object of being out there, i guess you'd be pretty focused. likewise canyoneering? i mean unless you got cold and wet, but how could that happen? (kidding)
i don't know, for me it just always comes back to how easy it is to die from a botched rappel.
keep an ear open for that disconcerting "click"...
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sherpa79
Aug 19, 2011, 12:49 PM
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I think simul-rapping is fine, so long as both parties are experienced enough to use it and take the necessary precautions. Sometimes it's necessary to save that extra time.
As far as tethering yourselves together I think this is a bad idea unless you are perfoming some kind of assistance or rescue. First of all you will loose most of the time you might save on a simul-rap being that close to your partner. It's like going down the face in 3-legged race. If there is a lip or swing you both have to negotiate it at the same time, and somehow avoid knocking into one another. Plus if your partner does get knocked out and either one of you isn't using a rappel backup it can cause problems. But if both of you are using backups, why be tethered together?
Also as far as anchor strength, if it's an anchor you would belay on, you shouldn't be worrying about it supporting the static weight of 2 climbers. If it is just a rap anchor and not suitable for belay, obviously you need to not simul-rap.
I think it is easier to simul-rap while keeping 10 feet or so between climbers. Easy to communicate, but enough distance to swing arond those lips or obstacles.
And though I've not simul rappelled for 3 hours I would posit that you stand to gain much more than 15 or 20 minutes if you have that much rappelling to do and are at all efficient at it. Though I will agree that you should always be looking to increase efficiency throughout the climb and that this is more likely to save you the MOST time.
I don't think the simul-rap should be adopted as standard practice, but I do think it is a valuable tool and one that is poo-pooed too much. Of all the discussions and shenaniganry I've witnessed about increasing efficiency at belay changeovers, simul-rapping is much more straightforward. And provided with a strong anchor and the appropriate awareness I don't think it's any more dangerous than rappelling by yourself.
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Guran
Aug 19, 2011, 2:02 PM
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Right, trying out some new and fancy rappell trick just when your tired, cold and scared is a recipie for disaster. Couldn't agree more.
Still I fail to see any real potential for disaster with the stone knot variant. That is apart from the ones inherit in rappelling in general. After all it is just two climbers rapping a single line each. The load on the anchor is doubled, of course but if THAT is an issue I wouldn't rap normally either without a back up.
Now there might be better (safer, more efficient) ways to speed up a long rappell. There definitely are worse ways. I'd rather see climbers simul-rap with a stone knot than skipping knotted ends and back up prussiks for example...
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mbrd
Aug 20, 2011, 1:09 PM
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well, i guess anything that every individual in the party is well versed in is going to be fine. i just see it as a marginal potential gain for a significant potential risk.
the problem with the rig isn't its reliability- indeed, correctly rigged, this thing looks almost bombproof. the problem is that it requires correct rigging, ostensibly to be applied under some duress if the need for speed were crucial; precisely when things have a tendency to go sideways- in the rigging stages.
also, something sherpa79 said made me a little uneasy. i may have misinterpreted his meaning, but it seemed like he was suggesting that a simul rap was subjected only to the static weight of two climbers. rappelling is far from static, and much like toprope falls, raps generate significantly more dynamic moments than most folks seem to intuit.
this brings us back to guran's suggestion that the "load on the anchor is doubled". true, but doubling a dynamic load is a lot more significant of a leap than doubling a static load.
by the way, there are plenty of places where, and conditions under which, one can't toss tails for a rappel if they are knotted; similarly, rigging prussik backups for rappels is completely outside of my experience, especially if a party is trying to save time.
repeatedly applying prussiks would burn way more time than checking each others' raps, and going one by one, on a simple double line rig that we are all familiar with, or a choked single line rap with a pull line, that many of us are familiar with.
of course, i did mention that i am a stick in the mud, right?
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