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donwanadi
Oct 26, 2011, 4:02 PM
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What's the deal with guides roping up all the easier routes in an area even if they aren't climbing them? If a route has a top rope just sitting there unattended, is it fair game to drop my rope next to it?
I'm referring to Peter's Kill in particular. In the afternoon we were looking for a route and every damn route up to 5.7 had a rope on it. About 30% not being used.
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jakedatc
Oct 26, 2011, 4:10 PM
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if you're going to TR anyway you could just ask to use their line. if not ask to pull it and set yours.
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LostinMaine
Oct 26, 2011, 4:20 PM
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donwanadi wrote: What's the deal with guides roping up all the easier routes in an area even if they aren't climbing them? If a route has a top rope just sitting there unattended, is it fair game to drop my rope next to it? I'm referring to Peter's Kill in particular. In the afternoon we were looking for a route and every damn route up to 5.7 had a rope on it. About 30% not being used.
When you talked to the guide about the situation, as I'm sure you did rather than bottling it up and waiting to rant online, what did he/she say?
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donwanadi
Oct 26, 2011, 5:08 PM
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LostinMaine wrote: donwanadi wrote: What's the deal with guides roping up all the easier routes in an area even if they aren't climbing them? If a route has a top rope just sitting there unattended, is it fair game to drop my rope next to it? I'm referring to Peter's Kill in particular. In the afternoon we were looking for a route and every damn route up to 5.7 had a rope on it. About 30% not being used. When you talked to the guide about the situation, as I'm sure you did rather than bottling it up and waiting to rant online, what did he/she say?
I approached one of the guides and asked about the location of a route and was received with a defensive "WE'RE climbing here." After continuing on down the majority of the cliff, it was late in the day so we headed home.
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Idako
Oct 26, 2011, 5:35 PM
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heh, at first when I read this I thought you were referring to me (we had a group of 5 people @ peterskill this past weekend and we had 4 TR's set up around Enterprise, though none of us are guides).
Thankfully I realized it was not us when you detailed the reaction you got (that and we were out of there by 2).
Each group that came through the area we were in we offered to let them use any line we weren't actively climbing. Only one group took us up on it.
IMO if the ropes are up but no one is using them the guide should have been willing to share or at least pull the rope up so you can run yours.
That being said last few weekends the place has been pretty crowded. I would recommend getting there early, going mid afternoon is going to lead to frustration :/
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donwanadi
Oct 26, 2011, 5:44 PM
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Idako wrote: heh, at first when I read this I thought you were referring to me (we had a group of 5 people @ peterskill this past weekend and we had 4 TR's set up around Enterprise, though none of us are guides). Thankfully I realized it was not us when you detailed the reaction you got (that and we were out of there by 2). Each group that came through the area we were in we offered to let them use any line we weren't actively climbing. Only one group took us up on it. IMO if the ropes are up but no one is using them the guide should have been willing to share or at least pull the rope up so you can run yours. That being said last few weekends the place has been pretty crowded. I would recommend getting there early, going mid afternoon is going to lead to frustration :/
I was there all day from 9am that's why we just left. Little chilly in the morning but we didn't have to compete for space. Almost everyone we met was very relaxed and friendly. Thanks for the input guys.
This weekend I think we'll check out something a little more off the beaten path.
(This post was edited by donwanadi on Oct 26, 2011, 5:45 PM)
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curt
Oct 26, 2011, 5:46 PM
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donwanadi wrote: LostinMaine wrote: donwanadi wrote: What's the deal with guides roping up all the easier routes in an area even if they aren't climbing them? If a route has a top rope just sitting there unattended, is it fair game to drop my rope next to it? I'm referring to Peter's Kill in particular. In the afternoon we were looking for a route and every damn route up to 5.7 had a rope on it. About 30% not being used. When you talked to the guide about the situation, as I'm sure you did rather than bottling it up and waiting to rant online, what did he/she say? I approached one of the guides and asked about the location of a route and was received with a defensive "WE'RE climbing here..."
What did he do after you hit him? 
Curt
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donwanadi
Oct 26, 2011, 5:54 PM
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curt wrote: What did he do after you hit him? Curt
I was way too confused to get angry.
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njrox
Oct 26, 2011, 5:56 PM
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Gunks/PK on a weekend...forget it. Especially if you're climbing below 5.8 or on Top-Rope. And if the weather is nice you might not even get to park your car.
Sounds like the guide was trying to scare you off. Guides are climbers too, but they're also working for someone and trying to earn a tip. I've encountered really cool guides before who will offer up their lines when their clients aren't on them. And I've come across some pretty lame climbers who can't say how much more time/how many more tries they have left on a route. It's a mixed bag. Try to be fair, and hopefully someone will be fair to you. It's all you can really do.
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jkd159
Oct 26, 2011, 6:38 PM
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I've been the guy on both sides of this issue. I've set a bunch of ropes for beginners to toprope (as a guide and climbing with friends), and I've wanted to get on a climb that was being hoarded by a large group. So I have a few observations...
1) First and foremost, if someone is on a climb, it is theirs until they are done. They got there before you did. You can ask to use their rope and they have every right to say yes or no. If they say no, move on. There is more rock out there.
2) You can pull unattended ropes. Nobody has a right to "reserve" a climb by hanging a rope on it all day. Just be sure the rope is actually unattended. Someone who hung a toprope and is currently walking back down to the base of the cliff doesn't deserve to have their rope pulled.
3) When I have a large group, I try to set a bunch of topropes close together. Makes my life easier, the group can cheer for each other, and we aren't spread all over the cliff. i.e. If you want to avoid my group you can go somewhere else and we won't be there.
4) If I'm working, you can't climb my ropes. That's a decision straight from my director of risk management in consultation with lawyers. You haven't signed our waiver, and you can't use our ropes. Most professional guides operate this way. We kinda feel like jerks for not sharing our ropes, but we also know how easy it is to get sued in this country. If I'm climbing for recreation, I'm happy to share ropes with anyone.
5) If the ropes are idle, I'm happy to pull them and let you on the climb. Please ask. Realize that a rope isn't idle the instant nobody is tied in. Someone putting on shoes, finishing a sandwich, or rooting through their pack looking for a camera might be nearly ready to climb. They are beginners, they are slow at everything, but if they are going to be on the rope in five minutes the rope isn't idle.
Having said all that, I really do empathize with beginners who spend all day wandering the cliffs and only manage to get one or two short climbs before sunset. That was me once. If you find yourself in this position, a few tips:
1) Learn to set topropes with gear. Since we are talking about Peter's Kill, there are maybe 20 or 30 lines with bolted anchors. The entire cliff has at least 200 climbable lines. Learn how to set ropes on them.
2) Explore! If the handful of climbs you had planned to do that day are taken, pick some random section of rock and climb it. You might have fun, you might get shut down, but at least you won't be standing in line and seething while watching other people climb.
3) Courtesy and good humor go a long way. I try to be super polite when I climb, especially when I've got a bunch of topropes up (because I feel like a jerk for hogging all the routes, I'm just compensating). If you ask nicely, I'm way more likely to pull a rope and let you have a route. At the very least, I can recommend some climbs. I almost certainly had a backup plan for the day, a similar set of toprope climbs that my group would have enjoyed had the climbs we are on been occupied. Sometimes I don't get the climbs I want either.
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donwanadi
Oct 26, 2011, 6:55 PM
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Thanks. Great info.
I had 200' of static 11mm PMI with me so anchors weren't an issue.
I didn't realize there we that many bolted anchors at Peter's Kill. Is there a list somewhere? I saw a post with 3 or 4 over at mountainzone, but that's it.
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cogmog
Oct 26, 2011, 7:03 PM
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Rule of thumb, IF you hang a rope on a route to toprope the route once or twice, its your discretion to let somone use it. If you keep it there for laps then you need to share it. If you hang more than one rope, you absolutely need to share. AS to "guides; Guides own a license and insurance. They do not own the cliffs. With this said, I have met more "nice" guides, than I have "not nice".
Another thing to think about: Do you want to trust another persons toprope setup? I have seen some pretty manky anchors (bushes, old slings that people clip, rotted trees etc.) For me, I'll stick to my own gear or bolts and save TR'ing for lazy days on my own ropes.
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jkd159
Oct 26, 2011, 7:05 PM
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I've never seen a list. Off the top of my head:
Two sets of bolts in the Bunk Bed area. Don't remember which climbs.
Reach Around
A few sets at Enterprise Wall
Three bolts on the top of Scrotum Pole which can be used to access everything on the pillar.
Floops/Oops
Two pairs of bolts at the top of Psycho Wall
Skink
Fickle Fingers
Golden Dream
That's all from memory, so I've probably got some wrong and am forgetting a few more.
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jakedatc
Oct 26, 2011, 7:36 PM
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curt wrote: donwanadi wrote: LostinMaine wrote: donwanadi wrote: What's the deal with guides roping up all the easier routes in an area even if they aren't climbing them? If a route has a top rope just sitting there unattended, is it fair game to drop my rope next to it? I'm referring to Peter's Kill in particular. In the afternoon we were looking for a route and every damn route up to 5.7 had a rope on it. About 30% not being used. When you talked to the guide about the situation, as I'm sure you did rather than bottling it up and waiting to rant online, what did he/she say? I approached one of the guides and asked about the location of a route and was received with a defensive "WE'RE climbing here..." What did he do after you hit him? Curt
Nah, Should have pulled his rope. If the guide came after him then it was self defense :)
OP: screw that guy.. if no one is on the rope then they are not "climbing there" pull the rope and drop your own. Also get the company who they are working for and talk to a supervisor. Also put the guide company's name online for people to see how they act.
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happiegrrrl
Oct 26, 2011, 9:28 PM
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You could not pay me to climb at Peterskill on an autumn weekend. Or start of season weekend. Other weekends....I might go with someone else who wants to go there but it would know what to expect.
Peterskill is a very small crag, with very easy access to the top for all manner of people to set up topropes. It is a quagmire of gumbys who read a book, bought some gear and have brought 5 of their friends out to climb, many of which has any idea about much more than how to tie in.
Then you have the families - mom or dad with their kids, and their friends and their kids - making a day of climbing and a picnic.
Then you have the teams of newish but bitten by the bug climbers who are out with their friend, learning the ropes and seeing the single pitch, easy access of P'kill as more manageable than the other cliffs nearbye.
Then you have the people visiting the area, who don't have a guidebook, and don't really have a lot of skills for mulitpitch, and maybe *mention* they'd like to hang Tr's, who post on the forums asking where they should climb, and people suggest P'kill.
THEN you have the guide and their clients. They are nowhere near representing a majority of the climbers there on any weekend day.
I know most of the registered guides who work those cliffs, and cannot imagine any of them giving back that kind of reply(WE're climbing here). It's possible the *guide* you encountered was maybe something different, like someone who fancied themselves of a guide sort but is really just the only one in the group who went out and spent $500 on gear, or maybe pirate guiding from another area.
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gunkiemike
Oct 28, 2011, 1:43 AM
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I added a few comments to the list below
jkd159 wrote: I've never seen a list. Off the top of my head: Two sets of bolts in the Bunk Bed area. Don't remember which climbs. - Above the arete and 20' right. Reach Around A few sets at Enterprise Wall - just one set Three bolts on the top of Scrotum Pole which can be used to access everything on the pillar. Floops/Oops Two pairs of bolts at the top of Psycho Wall - yup, above Yellow W.P. and Psycho Ck Right Chalkboard Wall - 1 set Skink Fickle Fingers Golden Dream Mya |
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rangerrob
Oct 29, 2011, 6:07 PM
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Don, if you want a little more off the beaten Path, go climb at Millbrook. I will gaurantee you will not run into this dilemna.
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smallclimber
Oct 29, 2011, 11:08 PM
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Though you may not find quite so many single pitch, bolted anchor, walk-up, top ropable 5.7s..........
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rangerrob
Oct 31, 2011, 2:03 AM
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Hey, you can't have everything you want.
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jensk
Oct 31, 2011, 3:36 AM
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I hit the Gunks once a year when flying out to visit my in-laws and have to say that I've watched a lot of funny possesive stuff about the easier routes in regards to the guides while I have been belaying. Many of them are sub-par climbers to boot from a rock jock standard.
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JohnCook
Oct 31, 2011, 4:26 PM
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May sound like a stupid question, but why don't the 'guides' set up on the less popular areas?
They would be better able to communicate with their clients, without the confusion of calls from other climbers, they would not be upsetting other climbers by 'reserving' routes, they could have several adjacent routes operating at once, etc.
I know they have to earn a living, but they may get less bad comments if they were more considerate.
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rangerrob
Oct 31, 2011, 4:40 PM
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The beginner routes are popular for a reason. They are easy, they are good, and they are simple to set up and breakdown. Guides aren't going to take their clients to a chossy section of the cliff just so other beginners can occupy the good routes. first come first serve I'm afraid. That being said, there is nothing wrong with telling a guide that you want to climb a route they are on. A real professional will let you know how long thet intend to be there, and remove their gear as soon as it is possible. if they act unprofessionally, then you also have the right to inquire into who they work for, and complain to their bosses, or badmouth their service. Just my 2 cents
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Gmburns2000
Oct 31, 2011, 5:22 PM
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rangerrob wrote: The beginner routes are popular for a reason. They are easy, they are good, and they are simple to set up and breakdown. Guides aren't going to take their clients to a chossy section of the cliff just so other beginners can occupy the good routes. first come first serve I'm afraid. That being said, there is nothing wrong with telling a guide that you want to climb a route they are on. A real professional will let you know how long thet intend to be there, and remove their gear as soon as it is possible. if they act unprofessionally, then you also have the right to inquire into who they work for, and complain to their bosses, or badmouth their service. Just my 2 cents
I've met a lot of the guides at the crag over the years climbing at the 'Gunks and have to say that while they annoyingly take up some of the best beginner climbs, they've all been real polite to me when I've asked to climb a route they were set up on. For me, being polite to them has worked wonders.
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marc801
Oct 31, 2011, 7:31 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: For me, being polite to them has worked wonders.
Everyone knows you're not supposed to ask or say anything at the time - just suck it up silently and fume, then get on rc.com or the forum of choice and rant and complain the following day! Where have you been???
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