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camhead
Jan 22, 2012, 4:09 PM
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thanks for linking that. it is not surprising, but indicative of the quality of this site that something like the Compressor Route getting freed then chopped would not get a bit of mention on rc.knoob.
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moose_droppings
Jan 22, 2012, 5:57 PM
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camhead wrote: thanks for linking that. it is not surprising, but indicative of the quality of this site that something like the Compressor Route getting freed then chopped would not get a bit of mention on rc.knoob. It's not like most people come here for breaking news first. Edit: I guess it would be new news here if what you say about the compressor route getting freed was true.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jan 22, 2012, 6:22 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Jan 22, 2012, 9:07 PM
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well, the noticeable lack of discussion here is also stark compared to other sites. But whatever. I'm actually curious if the Lama deal last year gave these guys the idea of chopping or not. OK, usually folks who have decided to chop such a route have already made up their minds, but when I think about it, that controversy might have pushed things over the line to the point where this team decided to not let something like that happen again. In other words, if the bolts had remained then what would have stopped others from doing what Lama's team did. Probably not true, but I think it's an interesting theory.
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camhead
Jan 22, 2012, 9:40 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: well, the noticeable lack of discussion here is also stark compared to other sites. But whatever. I'm actually curious if the Lama deal last year gave these guys the idea of chopping or not. OK, usually folks who have decided to chop such a route have already made up their minds, but when I think about it, that controversy might have pushed things over the line to the point where this team decided to not let something like that happen again. In other words, if the bolts had remained then what would have stopped others from doing what Lama's team did. Probably not true, but I think it's an interesting theory. It might have been in response to the Lama thing, but the chopping of the bolts was also a hot topic in 2007 when Wharton proposed doing so and caused a lot of butthurt then. Not going to have an opinion on this, since I've never been to Patagonia, let alone climbed a free bigwall in some of the most unstable weather on earth, but I do want to know this: did Kennedy and Kruk work the route by using the bolts that they later chopped? If so, then what they did was just as lame as, but on a greater scale then, Trotter working The Path on bolts then chopping it, or Kemple toproping then intentionally rap bolting a 5.13 route with 5.11+ X sections.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 22, 2012, 10:01 PM
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camhead wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: well, the noticeable lack of discussion here is also stark compared to other sites. But whatever. I'm actually curious if the Lama deal last year gave these guys the idea of chopping or not. OK, usually folks who have decided to chop such a route have already made up their minds, but when I think about it, that controversy might have pushed things over the line to the point where this team decided to not let something like that happen again. In other words, if the bolts had remained then what would have stopped others from doing what Lama's team did. Probably not true, but I think it's an interesting theory. It might have been in response to the Lama thing, but the chopping of the bolts was also a hot topic in 2007 when Wharton proposed doing so and caused a lot of butthurt then. Not going to have an opinion on this, since I've never been to Patagonia, let alone climbed a free bigwall in some of the most unstable weather on earth, but I do want to know this: did Kennedy and Kruk work the route by using the bolts that they later chopped? If so, then what they did was just as lame as, but on a greater scale then, Trotter working The Path on bolts then chopping it, or Kemple toproping then intentionally rap bolting a 5.13 route with 5.11+ X sections. Couldn't agree more. From what I've read it seems that they might have, but I can't find the quote anywhere at the moment. Of course, there have only been snippets of the accomplishment thus far in the news, so the full story has yet to be revealed. Interesting note that Kennedy's father is the EiC of the Alpinist.
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notapplicable
Jan 22, 2012, 10:15 PM
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camhead wrote: thanks for linking that. it is not surprising, but indicative of the quality of this site that something like the Compressor Route getting freed then chopped would not get a bit of mention on rc.knoob. You're just not reading the right threads.
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moose_droppings
Jan 23, 2012, 12:46 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: well, the noticeable lack of discussion here is also stark compared to other sites. But whatever. I'm actually curious if the Lama deal last year gave these guys the idea of chopping or not. OK, usually folks who have decided to chop such a route have already made up their minds, but when I think about it, that controversy might have pushed things over the line to the point where this team decided to not let something like that happen again. In other words, if the bolts had remained then what would have stopped others from doing what Lama's team did. Probably not true, but I think it's an interesting theory. Since we can only speculate without the full story being in yet, my wild guess would be that they only decided to chop after climbing most of the route with their few variations to it. They may have seen many places where pro could have been placed making no need for the bolts. But then again, back when the bolts went in much of the route could of been covered in ice at the time and the zest for the summit (even though he didn't) dictated the high number of bolts that did go in.
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qwert
Jan 23, 2012, 10:22 AM
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So who wants to bet on how long it will take until someone puts the bolts back in? Doing new ascents by fair means is one thing - chopping bolts is another. As controversial as the maestri route is, it IS a historical monument. Not exactly a nice one, but it is one. As far as i understand the situation, it was the consensus that the bolts stay, but no additional bolts get placed. Yes, it is a great feat to be able to climb that route without them, but does that give you the right to remove them? Where is the line? Here in my home area there are dozens of routes that i can and have climbed skipping bolts or even without using any. So can i now go and chop them, because i have shown that it is possible without them? qwert
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Gmburns2000
Jan 23, 2012, 10:24 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: well, the noticeable lack of discussion here is also stark compared to other sites. But whatever. I'm actually curious if the Lama deal last year gave these guys the idea of chopping or not. OK, usually folks who have decided to chop such a route have already made up their minds, but when I think about it, that controversy might have pushed things over the line to the point where this team decided to not let something like that happen again. In other words, if the bolts had remained then what would have stopped others from doing what Lama's team did. Probably not true, but I think it's an interesting theory. Since we can only speculate without the full story being in yet, my wild guess would be that they only decided to chop after climbing most of the route with their few variations to it. They may have seen many places where pro could have been placed making no need for the bolts. But then again, back when the bolts went in much of the route could of been covered in ice at the time and the zest for the summit (even though he didn't) dictated the high number of bolts that did go in. While I'm sure that's partly the truth, I'm not sure how true it is. For one, you'd have to get to the top AND have the ability (window weather, for example) to make the decision to chop on the way down. That's a fair amount of work under difficult conditions. And considering the short window that most people have down there, taking advantage of good weather means getting more routes in. So if I have to guess then I have to think this was planned. Also, what folks are saying who have climbed the route is that they chopped not only where pro could have gone but also some of the blankest sections.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 23, 2012, 4:10 PM
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Wow. That seems rather ironic. Just to clarify another point made above, it seems as if Kennedy and Kruk's decision to chop the bolts was made on the summit.
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notapplicable
Jan 23, 2012, 6:17 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Wow. That seems rather ironic. Just to clarify another point made above, it seems as if Kennedy and Kruk's decision to chop the bolts was made on the summit. Sounds like they made some good progress. 100 bolts down, 300 to go.
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j_ung
Jan 23, 2012, 7:03 PM
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I'm not sure why anybody would want to venture to such a faraway land, accomplish something utterly impressive and then open the door to controversy by chopping anything at all, let alone a route of historic significance. But whatever. I don't really have a dog in the fight, so I'm content to sit back and read others opinions on the chop. I do have a question, though. Where's the compressor now?
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moose_droppings
Jan 24, 2012, 12:04 AM
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j_ung wrote: I do have a question, though. Where's the compressor now? It's for sale on Ebay. Naw, it's still hanging off CT as far as I know. Don't pull on it while climbing or it's aiding.
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moose_droppings
Jan 24, 2012, 12:10 AM
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qwert wrote: So who wants to bet on how long it will take until someone puts the bolts back in? Doing new ascents by fair means is one thing - chopping bolts is another. As controversial as the maestri route is, it IS a historical monument. Not exactly a nice one, but it is one. As far as i understand the situation, it was the consensus that the bolts stay, but no additional bolts get placed. Yes, it is a great feat to be able to climb that route without them, but does that give you the right to remove them? Where is the line? Here in my home area there are dozens of routes that i can and have climbed skipping bolts or even without using any. So can i now go and chop them, because i have shown that it is possible without them? qwert I was just taking a guess as to what was done. What I said above was not even intended as an opinion. I too have no dog in this fight. I've never climbed it nor have I ever been in that part of the world. Those that have can iron this out among themselves.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 24, 2012, 12:20 AM
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qwert wrote: So who wants to bet on how long it will take until someone puts the bolts back in? Doing new ascents by fair means is one thing - chopping bolts is another. As controversial as the maestri route is, it IS a historical monument. Not exactly a nice one, but it is one. As far as i understand the situation, it was the consensus that the bolts stay, but no additional bolts get placed. Yes, it is a great feat to be able to climb that route without them, but does that give you the right to remove them? Where is the line? Here in my home area there are dozens of routes that i can and have climbed skipping bolts or even without using any. So can i now go and chop them, because i have shown that it is possible without them? qwert Well, that's part of the dig here, there was that vote to leave the bolts in, but most of those who voted had never been on Cerro Torre. The question to me is really, who is the community at this point? One man in the hospital, another at the police station, two yung'uns trying to be something bigger?
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j_ung
Jan 24, 2012, 1:13 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: qwert wrote: So who wants to bet on how long it will take until someone puts the bolts back in? Doing new ascents by fair means is one thing - chopping bolts is another. As controversial as the maestri route is, it IS a historical monument. Not exactly a nice one, but it is one. As far as i understand the situation, it was the consensus that the bolts stay, but no additional bolts get placed. Yes, it is a great feat to be able to climb that route without them, but does that give you the right to remove them? Where is the line? Here in my home area there are dozens of routes that i can and have climbed skipping bolts or even without using any. So can i now go and chop them, because i have shown that it is possible without them? qwert I was just taking a guess as to what was done. What I said above was not even intended as an opinion. I too have no dog in this fight. I've never climbed it nor have I ever been in that part of the world. Those that have can iron this out among themselves. Fat chance of that happening. Different hill. Same old argument.
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dynosore
Jan 24, 2012, 2:22 PM
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Initially I smiled to myself when I read that this infamous desecration had been chopped. But, a little digging led me to these snippets: "American climbers choosing to make a statement based on their own personal ethics regardless of the history and agreement of locals in Argentina seems both culturally and historically disrespectful (despite the stupid and ethically questionable placement of the original bolts). Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right." -comment on Alpinist article and "On 14 February 2007, Valentine’s Day for most, circa 40 international mountaineers held an extraordinary meeting at El Chalten’s "Los Glaciares" visitor center to discuss the possibility of removing the expansion bolts along Cesare Maestri’s 1970 “Compressor route” up the SE Ridge of Cerro Torre. <snip> At the end of assembly circa 30 of the 40 mountainerrs voted to leave the bolts in loco. But perhaps the actual outcome of the 2007 is the least important aspect, as the 34 year old Argentine Mountain Guide Vicente Labate who lives and works at El Chalten explains in his résumé if the “Mountaineering democracy” at the foot of Cerro Torre." http://www.planetmountain.com/...?l=2&keyid=35788 Given that these guys used bolts on their ascent and didn't free the route, and they're not even from that hemisphere, it seems more than a bit presumptuous of them to chop the route. If an Argentinian or Chilean skipped some bolts on the Nose, claimed "better style" then chopped it on rappel, what would the reaction be here?
(This post was edited by dynosore on Jan 24, 2012, 2:22 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Jan 25, 2012, 12:02 AM
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dynosore wrote: Initially I smiled to myself when I read that this infamous desecration had been chopped. But, a little digging led me to these snippets: "American climbers choosing to make a statement based on their own personal ethics regardless of the history and agreement of locals in Argentina seems both culturally and historically disrespectful (despite the stupid and ethically questionable placement of the original bolts). Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right." -comment on Alpinist article and "On 14 February 2007, Valentine’s Day for most, circa 40 international mountaineers held an extraordinary meeting at El Chalten’s "Los Glaciares" visitor center to discuss the possibility of removing the expansion bolts along Cesare Maestri’s 1970 “Compressor route” up the SE Ridge of Cerro Torre. <snip> At the end of assembly circa 30 of the 40 mountainerrs voted to leave the bolts in loco. But perhaps the actual outcome of the 2007 is the least important aspect, as the 34 year old Argentine Mountain Guide Vicente Labate who lives and works at El Chalten explains in his résumé if the “Mountaineering democracy” at the foot of Cerro Torre." http://www.planetmountain.com/...?l=2&keyid=35788 Given that these guys used bolts on their ascent and didn't free the route, and they're not even from that hemisphere, it seems more than a bit presumptuous of them to chop the route. If an Argentinian or Chilean skipped some bolts on the Nose, claimed "better style" then chopped it on rappel, what would the reaction be here? Death? OK, maybe that's a bit overblown, but really, I think these guys might have eff'd up.
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moose_droppings
Jan 25, 2012, 12:06 AM
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Didn't Maestri himself chop some of the bolts on his way down and had wanted to chop more sometime? I can't remember that as fact right now but seems like I had read that. That would add another tidbit for perspective. I'll try and see if I can reread that again. Meantime, maybe someone else knows?
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notapplicable
Jan 25, 2012, 12:28 AM
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IIRC, he wanted to chop the entire route but found it too difficult/time consuming and gave up after pulling 25 or so bolts. One question I've never heard addressed is how the bolts would have been dealt with in the long run. Eventually they would have needed replacing or become too dangerous to use. Would the existing hardware be maintained and the route preserved? Just about everyone who is against the route being chopped agrees that the route never should have gone in but want to leave it alone as a piece of climbing history. To extend that logic to actually maintaining the hardware seems quite the stretch.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 25, 2012, 1:14 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Didn't Maestri himself chop some of the bolts on his way down and had wanted to chop more sometime? I can't remember that as fact right now but seems like I had read that. That would add another tidbit for perspective. I'll try and see if I can reread that again. Meantime, maybe someone else knows? I read that he chopped some of the final bolts to prove how hard it was. Forty years later it seems he was right about that at least. Can't say anything about maintenance, but apparently guides used the bolts so I'd imagine they'd want them to remain in some fashion. There's even talk about bolting the thing again, though that also seems a stretch.
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jbro_135
Jan 27, 2012, 5:42 PM
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I have to say, some of the arguments against the route being chopped are pretty weak. One of the most common reactions that I've seen in the comments on these news articles is "the route is historical so it should stay" - well using that logic you could argue that taking rash action without consensus is part of the Patagonian climbing tradition. History is made all the time, just because something happened doesn't mean it can't be changed or revisited.
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