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j_ung
Jan 27, 2012, 6:25 PM
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jbro_135 wrote: I have to say, some of the arguments against the route being chopped are pretty weak. One of the most common reactions that I've seen in the comments on these news articles is "the route is historical so it should stay" - well using that logic you could argue that taking rash action without consensus is part of the Patagonian climbing tradition. History is made all the time, just because something happened doesn't mean it can't be changed or revisited. I don't necessarily think the route should have been chopped (I actually don't care one way or the other), but I agree with that sentiment. The story got more interesting, not less.
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yanqui
Jan 27, 2012, 10:04 PM
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Rolo's supertopo thread about this is a kick if you have about a day to wade through it. Even though consensus is impossible, big names from the past like Carlos Comesaņa and Leo Dickinson weigh in with well-thought-out posts, making the thread a little piece of climbing history. I was also surprised how many butthurt Italians showed up.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 30, 2012, 12:02 AM
Post #28 of 48
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yanqui wrote: Rolo's supertopo thread about this is a kick if you have about a day to wade through it. Even though consensus is impossible, big names from the past like Carlos Comesaņa and Leo Dickinson weigh in with well-thought-out posts, making the thread a little piece of climbing history. I was also surprised how many butthurt Italians showed up. That last part in itself is what makes the chopped bolts worth it.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 30, 2012, 12:05 AM
Post #29 of 48
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jbro_135 wrote: I have to say, some of the arguments against the route being chopped are pretty weak. One of the most common reactions that I've seen in the comments on these news articles is "the route is historical so it should stay" - well using that logic you could argue that taking rash action without consensus is part of the Patagonian climbing tradition. History is made all the time, just because something happened doesn't mean it can't be changed or revisited. I don't disagree with that last part (or even your argument about rash decisions being a part of the history), but the community did try to come together at one point to have a single voice. That "community" ended up agreeing to keep the bolts So history aside, at least some people tried to get together to come to something of a consensus.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 30, 2012, 12:31 AM
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Surprised this didn't get linked, too: http://www.alpinist.com/...lpinist+Newswires%29 "In the end, we removed the bolts on the entire headwall and on one of the pitches below. Our best guess would count around 125. We would have continued chopping below, if not for our friends Victor and Ricardo, dependent on the bolts of the 90-meter bolt traverse to descend themselves." - Jason Kruk
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jcrew
Feb 2, 2012, 9:05 PM
Post #32 of 48
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is Lama's climb that much more pure and impressive without the bolts? edit: photos of bolt mess scroll down to the 5th and 6th photo
(This post was edited by jcrew on Feb 2, 2012, 9:27 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Feb 3, 2012, 1:02 AM
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jcrew wrote: is Lama's climb that much more pure and impressive without the bolts? edit: photos of bolt mess scroll down to the 5th and 6th photo I'm not sure what you're saying? Apparently Lama didn't clip any bolts.
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onceahardman
Feb 3, 2012, 10:52 PM
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yanqui wrote: Rolo's supertopo thread about this is a kick if you have about a day to wade through it. Even though consensus is impossible, big names from the past like Carlos Comesaņa and Leo Dickinson weigh in with well-thought-out posts, making the thread a little piece of climbing history. I was also surprised how many butthurt Italians showed up. The Italians shouldn't be butthurt. Maestri was a hell of a climber, and never would have put the route up that way if he hadn't been questioned about having summited previously. He did it again, and bolted the ladder to prove it. On the other hand, 42 year old bolts in a high mountain environment are due for replacement anyway. Lives may have been saved by this.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Feb 3, 2012, 10:52 PM)
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yanqui
Feb 4, 2012, 1:22 PM
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onceahardman wrote: Maestri was a hell of a climber Yeah ... too bad he didn't have much success in Argentina
onceahardman wrote: Lives may have been saved by this. I guess I'm kind of receptive to the idea that chopping Maestri's bolts is a sort of public service.
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j_ung
Feb 5, 2012, 4:25 PM
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Establish the most impressive route to arguably the most impressive summit on Earth, dive head first into controversy by erasing one of the biggest mistakes in the history of climbing... and shit your pants when you get your knee stuck during an ill-fated hungover day of casual cragging. By which of those will you be known forever after?
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jcrew
Feb 5, 2012, 9:44 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jcrew wrote: is Lama's climb that much more pure and impressive without the bolts? I'm not sure what you're saying? Apparently Lama didn't clip any bolts. yeah, that didn't make any sense. what i meant to say is, Lama's climb was way more impressive without "compressor" bolts. he was fortunate to have had route prep. by jason and hayden. the route (now) requires world-class skills, fitting for a world-class peak. it's 2012, these climbers (Kennedy, Kruck, and Lama) are evolved, the products of 200+ years of collective climbing knowledge. Compressor Route was then, these guys are now!
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Gmburns2000
Feb 6, 2012, 1:17 PM
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jcrew wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jcrew wrote: is Lama's climb that much more pure and impressive without the bolts? I'm not sure what you're saying? Apparently Lama didn't clip any bolts. yeah, that didn't make any sense. what i meant to say is, Lama's climb was way more impressive without "compressor" bolts. he was fortunate to have had route prep. by jason and hayden. the route (now) requires world-class skills, fitting for a world-class peak. it's 2012, these climbers (Kennedy, Kruck, and Lama) are evolved, the products of 200+ years of collective climbing knowledge. Compressor Route was then, these guys are now! I'm curious how much route prep he got actually. He took a different line and climbed mostly the compressor route itself, whereas kennedy and kruk climbed a different line (or at least that's what I understand to be true).
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 6, 2012, 2:33 PM
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My only question is did they chop the bolts to help the community or did they chop them to make a name for themselves? If the former, than I don't really have an opinion having never been to Patagonia and not knowing anything about the culture there. If the latter, then shame on them. Josh
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superchuffer
Feb 6, 2012, 3:37 PM
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it clearly is the later bc the locals ran them out of town and they are questioned by police. K and K world police
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jbro_135
Feb 6, 2012, 4:44 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: My only question is did they chop the bolts to help the community or did they chop them to make a name for themselves? If the former, than I don't really have an opinion having never been to Patagonia and not knowing anything about the culture there. If the latter, then shame on them. Josh I'm sure they chopped them because they thought they were an abomination. They're already pretty well-known climbers, if they wanted to make a name for themselves that would be the wrong way to go about it. Although I would say they knew the reaction wouldn't be all positive when they made the decision...
(This post was edited by jbro_135 on Feb 6, 2012, 4:45 PM)
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thenose
Feb 6, 2012, 5:06 PM
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Thats bullshit. Who the F**k do they think they are? So they sent the route without clipping all the bolts, woopty fu*king doo, no one gives a shit. Thats not their route to f*ck with in the first place. That route has a long standing history spanning back to a time when those kids were shitting in a dipper and eating it. This last summer I sent a route in BC that Trotter put up. It was a .13a sport line that I did on gear. So does that give me the right to chop the line? Fu*k no, who the hell am I chop someone elses' work? Bolt chopping is an egotistic immature stunt that basically says "look at me I can climb this line without bolts." Well guess what, no one gives a shit. Look at any veteran world class climber, do you see them pulling that crap? What a bunch of tools, I would happily stomp their asses if I see them.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 6, 2012, 5:20 PM
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thenose wrote: Thats bullshit. Who the F**k do they think they are? So they sent the route without clipping all the bolts, woopty fu*king doo, no one gives a shit. Thats not their route to f*ck with in the first place. That route has a long standing history spanning back to a time when those kids were shitting in a dipper and eating it. This last summer I sent a route in BC that Trotter put up. It was a .13a sport line that I did on gear. So does that give me the right to chop the line? Fu*k no, who the hell am I chop someone elses' work? Bolt chopping is an egotistic immature stunt that basically says "look at me I can climb this line without bolts." Well guess what, no one gives a shit. Look at any veteran world class climber, do you see them pulling that crap? What a bunch of tools, I would happily stomp their asses if I see them. On that note, Brent Perkins didn't chop the bolts on Proper Soul when he sent it on gear either. Not sure your example and Proper Soul are on the scale as Cerro Torre, but OK, the point is somewhat valid.
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thenose
Feb 6, 2012, 6:20 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: thenose wrote: Thats bullshit. Who the F**k do they think they are? So they sent the route without clipping all the bolts, woopty fu*king doo, no one gives a shit. Thats not their route to f*ck with in the first place. That route has a long standing history spanning back to a time when those kids were shitting in a dipper and eating it. This last summer I sent a route in BC that Trotter put up. It was a .13a sport line that I did on gear. So does that give me the right to chop the line? Fu*k no, who the hell am I chop someone elses' work? Bolt chopping is an egotistic immature stunt that basically says "look at me I can climb this line without bolts." Well guess what, no one gives a shit. Look at any veteran world class climber, do you see them pulling that crap? What a bunch of tools, I would happily stomp their asses if I see them. On that note, Brent Perkins didn't chop the bolts on Proper Soul when he sent it on gear either. which means what? If I sent 1000 splitter cracks on gear, but decide to grid bolt ten 5.8 splitters in indian creak, is that okay because I sent 1000 other lines without bolts? thats irrelevant. and who are the noobs that gave me one star ratings? if you have something to say, speak up like a man. burt bronson style, no pussy 1 star rating and hiding behind your computer.
(This post was edited by thenose on Feb 6, 2012, 6:22 PM)
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TonyB3
Feb 6, 2012, 6:46 PM
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thenose wrote: Thats bullshit. Who the F**k do they think they are? So they sent the route without clipping all the bolts, woopty fu*king doo, no one gives a shit. Thats not their route to f*ck with in the first place. That route has a long standing history spanning back to a time when those kids were shitting in a dipper and eating it. This last summer I sent a route in BC that Trotter put up. It was a .13a sport line that I did on gear. So does that give me the right to chop the line? Fu*k no, who the hell am I chop someone elses' work? Bolt chopping is an egotistic immature stunt that basically says "look at me I can climb this line without bolts." Well guess what, no one gives a shit. Look at any veteran world class climber, do you see them pulling that crap? What a bunch of tools, I would happily stomp their asses if I see them. Why is it that all of your posts remind me of USNavy? Troll account? Maybe the mods could check that out, as I am sure it is against the TOS.
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 6, 2012, 7:41 PM
Post #47 of 48
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thenose wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: thenose wrote: Thats bullshit. Who the F**k do they think they are? So they sent the route without clipping all the bolts, woopty fu*king doo, no one gives a shit. Thats not their route to f*ck with in the first place. That route has a long standing history spanning back to a time when those kids were shitting in a dipper and eating it. This last summer I sent a route in BC that Trotter put up. It was a .13a sport line that I did on gear. So does that give me the right to chop the line? Fu*k no, who the hell am I chop someone elses' work? Bolt chopping is an egotistic immature stunt that basically says "look at me I can climb this line without bolts." Well guess what, no one gives a shit. Look at any veteran world class climber, do you see them pulling that crap? What a bunch of tools, I would happily stomp their asses if I see them. On that note, Brent Perkins didn't chop the bolts on Proper Soul when he sent it on gear either. which means what? If I sent 1000 splitter cracks on gear, but decide to grid bolt ten 5.8 splitters in indian creak, is that okay because I sent 1000 other lines without bolts? thats irrelevant. and who are the noobs that gave me one star ratings? if you have something to say, speak up like a man. burt bronson style, no pussy 1 star rating and hiding behind your computer. Says the man tough-talking behind his computer. Josh
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Gmburns2000
Feb 6, 2012, 11:16 PM
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thenose wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: thenose wrote: Thats bullshit. Who the F**k do they think they are? So they sent the route without clipping all the bolts, woopty fu*king doo, no one gives a shit. Thats not their route to f*ck with in the first place. That route has a long standing history spanning back to a time when those kids were shitting in a dipper and eating it. This last summer I sent a route in BC that Trotter put up. It was a .13a sport line that I did on gear. So does that give me the right to chop the line? Fu*k no, who the hell am I chop someone elses' work? Bolt chopping is an egotistic immature stunt that basically says "look at me I can climb this line without bolts." Well guess what, no one gives a shit. Look at any veteran world class climber, do you see them pulling that crap? What a bunch of tools, I would happily stomp their asses if I see them. On that note, Brent Perkins didn't chop the bolts on Proper Soul when he sent it on gear either. which means what? If I sent 1000 splitter cracks on gear, but decide to grid bolt ten 5.8 splitters in indian creak, is that okay because I sent 1000 other lines without bolts? thats irrelevant. I have no idea what this means in relation to your previous comment and my response. placing gear on previous routes and then grid bolting a separate crack has nothing to do with chopping a pre-existing route.
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