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jp_sucks
Jun 7, 2013, 1:10 AM
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News link: http://www.pentictonwesternnews.com/news/210490381.htmlhttp://www.pentictonwesternnews.com/news/210490381.html
Haven't heard anything new on the climber's condition yet. Seems to be the same accident that keeps happening over and over though... miscommunication leading to someone being dropped from the top of a climb. When will people start taking this more seriously??
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gblauer
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Jun 7, 2013, 1:12 AM
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Made clicky
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jumpingrock
Jun 7, 2013, 8:43 AM
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I have some rules that I religiously follow that will go a long way for people to prevent this type of accident.
1) ALWAYS talk with your belayer before you leave the ground about what you are going to do at the top.
2) ALWAYS weight the rope before unclipping your safety from the anchor.
3) ALWAYS play out 3 - 4 feet of slack rather than removing your partner from belay until you are certain that they are secure.
4) ALWAYS say 'SECURE' rather than 'SAFE'. 'TAKE' and 'SAFE' sound very similar and can lead to disastrous consequences.
5) ALWAYS treat cleaning a bolted anchor as the most dangerous thing you can do during a day at the crag.
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walkonyourhands
Jun 7, 2013, 11:11 AM
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jumpingrock wrote: I have some rules that I religiously follow that will go a long way for people to prevent this type of accident. 1) ALWAYS talk with your belayer before you leave the ground about what you are going to do at the top. 2) ALWAYS weight the rope before unclipping your safety from the anchor. 3) ALWAYS play out 3 - 4 feet of slack rather than removing your partner from belay until you are certain that they are secure. 4) ALWAYS say 'SECURE' rather than 'SAFE'. 'TAKE' and 'SAFE' sound very similar and can lead to disastrous consequences. 5) ALWAYS treat cleaning a bolted anchor as the most dangerous thing you can do during a day at the crag.
That sure works fine …until the one time your forget to do so. I know, it's hardly possible for many climbers but nothing beats a partner that knows you well.
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DipDop
Jun 7, 2013, 11:46 AM
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walkonyourhands wrote: jumpingrock wrote: I have some rules that I religiously follow that will go a long way for people to prevent this type of accident. 1) ALWAYS talk with your belayer before you leave the ground about what you are going to do at the top. 2) ALWAYS weight the rope before unclipping your safety from the anchor. 3) ALWAYS play out 3 - 4 feet of slack rather than removing your partner from belay until you are certain that they are secure. 4) ALWAYS say 'SECURE' rather than 'SAFE'. 'TAKE' and 'SAFE' sound very similar and can lead to disastrous consequences. 5) ALWAYS treat cleaning a bolted anchor as the most dangerous thing you can do during a day at the crag. That sure works fine …until the one time your forget to do so. I know, it's hardly possible for many climbers but nothing beats a partner that knows you well.
I'd actually say the opposite- the people who I climb with the most are the ones I find are most likely to start getting into a routine and skipping commands
Am I the only one confused how he fell from the anchors but the line was still taught when he hit ground?
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csproul
Jun 7, 2013, 2:09 PM
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DipDop wrote: walkonyourhands wrote: jumpingrock wrote: I have some rules that I religiously follow that will go a long way for people to prevent this type of accident. 1) ALWAYS talk with your belayer before you leave the ground about what you are going to do at the top. 2) ALWAYS weight the rope before unclipping your safety from the anchor. 3) ALWAYS play out 3 - 4 feet of slack rather than removing your partner from belay until you are certain that they are secure. 4) ALWAYS say 'SECURE' rather than 'SAFE'. 'TAKE' and 'SAFE' sound very similar and can lead to disastrous consequences. 5) ALWAYS treat cleaning a bolted anchor as the most dangerous thing you can do during a day at the crag. That sure works fine …until the one time your forget to do so. I know, it's hardly possible for many climbers but nothing beats a partner that knows you well. I'd actually say the opposite- the people who I climb with the most are the ones I find are most likely to start getting into a routine and skipping commands Am I the only one confused how he fell from the anchors but the line was still taught when he hit ground?
If you fell, expecting to be lowered and there was no one lowering you, you would still be attached to the rope. If you went to rappel and only got one strand in your device, you would still be attached to the rope. Those wouldn't entirely explain why it was tight, but in a fall that long it is not unreasonable that the rope could get tangled and/or hung up on something on the way down. Hope he comes through ok.
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lena_chita
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Jun 7, 2013, 2:45 PM
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Really sorry to hear about the accident.
I hope to hear the details later, but in the meantime hoping that the climber makes good recovery and everyone involved will work through the trauma.
So frustrating to read these confusing reports! they are quoting someone who helped with the recovery, someone who seems to be a climber/guide? But that doesn't add much clarity, either!
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marc801
Jun 7, 2013, 9:02 PM
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lena_chita wrote: So frustrating to read these confusing reports! they are quoting someone who helped with the recovery, someone who seems to be a climber/guide? But that doesn't add much clarity, either!
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lena_chita
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Jun 8, 2013, 12:42 PM
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marc801 wrote: lena_chita wrote: So frustrating to read these confusing reports! they are quoting someone who helped with the recovery, someone who seems to be a climber/guide? But that doesn't add much clarity, either! Seems that much of the quote content was to justify that the school group and gear had nothing to do with the accident.
Yes, that was the sense I got, too.
But really, how hard would it have been for the person to say something like "climber was tied in with fully-finished figure 8, the rope was through the anchors, there was no belayer attached to the other side of the rope, a tangle of rope was stuck in the anchors and keeping the rope tight", or something like that, before proceeding to say that they cut the rope, and it was their rope, but they had nothing to do with the accident.
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jp_sucks
Jun 9, 2013, 12:38 AM
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I'll see if I can find out some more details here (I live close to Skaha). Surprisingly this didn't make it into the regular news channels here.
I did see one small story yesterday but no further details.
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a4a52041
Jun 9, 2013, 3:49 AM
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I have spoken with the group leader of the ATLAS outdoor school group and, understandably, the kids are shaken up. The school group was in a popular climbing area at Skaha and were monopolizing a wall. They had a bunch of ropes setup for top-roping. The party of three involved in the accident asked to hop on one of their ropes. From my understanding...when the person got to the top of the route the belayer took him off...the climber leaned back to weight the rope and fell.
When the accident occurred the high school kids jumped into action....some of the kids helped out with first aid, others ran for the spinal board, and other used saws to cut down small trees so the air ambulance helicopter could land....these kids and group leaders are heroes and should be congratulated.
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marc801
Jun 9, 2013, 6:23 PM
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a4a52041 wrote: I have spoken with the group leader of the ATLAS outdoor school group and, understandably, the kids are shaken up. The school group was in a popular climbing area at Skaha and were monopolizing a wall. They had a bunch of ropes setup for top-roping. The party of three involved in the accident asked to hop on one of their ropes. From my understanding...when the person got to the top of the route the belayer took him off...the climber leaned back to weight the rope and fell. When the accident occurred the high school kids jumped into action....some of the kids helped out with first aid, others ran for the spinal board, and other used saws to cut down small trees so the air ambulance helicopter could land....these kids and group leaders are heroes and should be congratulated.
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a4a52041
Jun 10, 2013, 5:15 AM
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Grassy Bluffs - not sure where the helicopter landed
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jumpingrock
Jun 10, 2013, 7:12 AM
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walkonyourhands wrote: jumpingrock wrote: I have some rules that I religiously follow that will go a long way for people to prevent this type of accident. 1) ALWAYS talk with your belayer before you leave the ground about what you are going to do at the top. 2) ALWAYS weight the rope before unclipping your safety from the anchor. 3) ALWAYS play out 3 - 4 feet of slack rather than removing your partner from belay until you are certain that they are secure. 4) ALWAYS say 'SECURE' rather than 'SAFE'. 'TAKE' and 'SAFE' sound very similar and can lead to disastrous consequences. 5) ALWAYS treat cleaning a bolted anchor as the most dangerous thing you can do during a day at the crag. That sure works fine …until the one time your forget to do so. I know, it's hardly possible for many climbers but nothing beats a partner that knows you well.
Agreed. That's why there is more than one rule I follow, thus if I forget rule #1 (and who doesn't forget something every once in a while) rule #2 and possibly (depending on my partner) rule #3 will keep me alive.
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lena_chita
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Jun 10, 2013, 3:18 PM
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a4a52041 wrote: I have spoken with the group leader of the ATLAS outdoor school group and, understandably, the kids are shaken up. The school group was in a popular climbing area at Skaha and were monopolizing a wall. They had a bunch of ropes setup for top-roping. The party of three involved in the accident asked to hop on one of their ropes. From my understanding...when the person got to the top of the route the belayer took him off...the climber leaned back to weight the rope and fell. When the accident occurred the high school kids jumped into action....some of the kids helped out with first aid, others ran for the spinal board, and other used saws to cut down small trees so the air ambulance helicopter could land....these kids and group leaders are heroes and should be congratulated.
Witnessing a serious accident is hard on the by-standers, too. I am glad to hear that kids were able to rise to the occasion and help out. Hopefully they will take an important lesson about safety out of this incident and will be able to still climb after processing the recovery.
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moose_droppings
Jun 10, 2013, 4:29 PM
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a4a52041 wrote: When the accident occurred the high school kids jumped into action....some of the kids helped out with first aid, others ran for the spinal board, and other used saws to cut down small trees so the air ambulance helicopter could land.. ..these kids and group leaders are heroes and should be congratulated.
+1
Thanks for all the help.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jun 10, 2013, 4:31 PM)
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marc801
Jun 10, 2013, 5:04 PM
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a4a52041 wrote: Grassy Bluffs - not sure where the helicopter landed
Usually the beginner gang top ropes are on Red Tail and Go Anywhere and GA doesn't have the 30m height, hence my earlier guess.
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kobaz
Jun 12, 2013, 2:54 AM
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a4a52041 wrote: From my understanding...when the person got to the top of the route the belayer took him off...the climber leaned back to weight the rope and fell.
This is why lowering off the anchors when sport climbing scares the shit out of me. There's much more chance of error (edited to add: and lots more reported accidents) than setting up a rap (and nicer on the anchors...). And do what have you... tie knots in the ends, set up an autoblock, and call down to verify your ends are on the ground. Much much safer.
I constantly see people yell "off belay" and the belayer takes them off and walks away. The climber threads the rope and gets ready to lower and calls "put me on belay". There is absolutely no reason, *whatsoever* to ever call off belay when planning to lower on a route. Scary, scary, scary.
(This post was edited by kobaz on Jun 12, 2013, 2:59 AM)
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shotwell
Jun 12, 2013, 5:35 AM
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kobaz wrote: a4a52041 wrote: From my understanding...when the person got to the top of the route the belayer took him off...the climber leaned back to weight the rope and fell. This is why lowering off the anchors when sport climbing scares the shit out of me. There's much more chance of error (edited to add: and lots more reported accidents) than setting up a rap (and nicer on the anchors...). And do what have you... tie knots in the ends, set up an autoblock, and call down to verify your ends are on the ground. Much much safer. I constantly see people yell "off belay" and the belayer takes them off and walks away. The climber threads the rope and gets ready to lower and calls "put me on belay". There is absolutely no reason, *whatsoever* to ever call off belay when planning to lower on a route. Scary, scary, scary.
So because other people perform a simple task incorrectly you're scared for your own safety?
Simply put, there are three commands needed to clean an anchor while lowering. Slack, take, and ready to lower. Do it right from the beginning and it is safer than rappelling and lets you climb steep routes (also known as sport climbs.)
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lena_chita
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Jun 12, 2013, 3:55 PM
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kobaz wrote: a4a52041 wrote: From my understanding...when the person got to the top of the route the belayer took him off...the climber leaned back to weight the rope and fell. This is why lowering off the anchors when sport climbing scares the shit out of me. There's much more chance of error (edited to add: and lots more reported accidents) than setting up a rap (and nicer on the anchors...). And do what have you... tie knots in the ends, set up an autoblock, and call down to verify your ends are on the ground. Much much safer. I constantly see people yell "off belay" and the belayer takes them off and walks away. The climber threads the rope and gets ready to lower and calls "put me on belay". There is absolutely no reason, *whatsoever* to ever call off belay when planning to lower on a route. Scary, scary, scary.
Every time there is a rap accident when cleaning a route, people bring up lowering. Every time there is a lowering accident, people bring up rappelling.
Yes, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to call 'off belay' when planning to lower from the anchors. And most people do not call off belay in this scenario.
It comes back to the fact that climbing commands have a specific meaning, and they need to be used properly.
But we don't even know that this accident was the case of someone cleaning the route, so no need to jump to conclusions.
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kobaz
Jun 12, 2013, 4:24 PM
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shotwell wrote: So because other people perform a simple task incorrectly you're scared for your own safety?
Pretty much. Many times your own safety is in fact, in the hands of another person.
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milesenoell
Jun 12, 2013, 5:22 PM
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kobaz wrote: a4a52041 wrote: From my understanding...when the person got to the top of the route the belayer took him off...the climber leaned back to weight the rope and fell. This is why lowering off the anchors when sport climbing scares the shit out of me. There's much more chance of error (edited to add: and lots more reported accidents) than setting up a rap (and nicer on the anchors...). And do what have you... tie knots in the ends, set up an autoblock, and call down to verify your ends are on the ground. Much much safer. I constantly see people yell "off belay" and the belayer takes them off and walks away. The climber threads the rope and gets ready to lower and calls "put me on belay". There is absolutely no reason, *whatsoever* to ever call off belay when planning to lower on a route. Scary, scary, scary.
I'd also add that due to the ease of miscommunication it is very worthwhile to grab the belayer's strand with both hands and pay out the first few feet as the belayer begins to lower, but ready to hold your own weight should there have been some error.
Where I climb lowering off chains will get you scowls from the locals. Rapping is preferred to save the links from wear.
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bearbreeder
Jun 12, 2013, 5:57 PM
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most of these lowering accidents can be prevented with a simple rule ...
dont take off yr safety till youve TESTED and weighted the rope ...
and close the system, tie a knot at the end of the rope
its really that simple ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jun 12, 2013, 5:57 PM)
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lena_chita
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Jun 12, 2013, 6:10 PM
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kobaz wrote: shotwell wrote: So because other people perform a simple task incorrectly you're scared for your own safety? Pretty much. Many times your own safety is in fact, in the hands of another person.
Yes, it s -- every time you leave the ground, tied into one end of the rope. with your partner holding the other end.
If you trusted your partner while you were climbing, why are you suddenly worried for your safety in his hands when you reached the anchors?
When I am belaying on a single-pitch sport climb, and lowering the climber, my job as a belayer is not done until the climber is safely on the ground. I trust the climber to thread the rope properly and tie his figure eight correctly at the anchors, and he trusts me to lower him.
There are multiple things that play into safety-- consistency, communication, double-checking, paying attention, etc. etc. But to claim that rappeling is inherently safer because you don't rely on your partner, so your partner can't mess up is just ridiculous. You can just as easily say that it is less safe because there is nobody to double-check, in case you are tired, distracted, or otherwise mentally incapacitated.
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jt512
Jun 13, 2013, 1:03 AM
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kobaz wrote: shotwell wrote: So because other people perform a simple task incorrectly you're scared for your own safety? Pretty much. Many times your own safety is in fact, in the hands of another person.
If you can't trust your partners to lower you safely, you're climbing with the wrong partners.
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