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writingpaper
Sep 16, 2013, 5:17 AM
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Suppose I just finished leading a single-pitch sport route and set up an anchor for top rope. While being lowered, I don't unclip anything. Now my partner want to climb on TR, but he is finding that the rope is getting in the way of climbing because it still clipped into all the draws. Should the climber unclip while s/he climbs up on top rope? Or should the leader unclip the draws on the way down whilst being lowered? Should the top roper tie into the other end of the rope (so that the climber is underneath the draws and must unclip while climbing)? Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up?
Advice much appreciated.
(This post was edited by writingpaper on Sep 16, 2013, 5:24 AM)
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sbaclimber
Sep 16, 2013, 8:32 AM
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In reply to: Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up?
Besides leaving key draws clipped to prevent a nasty swing, or unclipping to reduce rope-drag, any of the other options are fine.
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Sep 16, 2013, 8:33 AM)
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JAB
Sep 16, 2013, 8:33 AM
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writingpaper wrote: Suppose I just finished leading a single-pitch sport route and set up an anchor for top rope. While being lowered, I don't unclip anything. Now my partner want to climb on TR, but he is finding that the rope is getting in the way of climbing because it still clipped into all the draws. Should the climber unclip while s/he climbs up on top rope? Or should the leader unclip the draws on the way down whilst being lowered? Should the top roper tie into the other end of the rope (so that the climber is underneath the draws and must unclip while climbing)? Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up? Advice much appreciated.
It mainly depends on 2 things: is the route overhanging and/or is the route traversing to the side? If neither, you can clean the route while lowering, and the toproper can then climb without being interrupted by the draws. He can also tie in to the same end as the leader.
If the route is overhanging or traversing, it is advisable to leave the draws in. Without the intermediate draws, the second would make a big and potentially dangerous swing if he falls. It might also be impossible to get back on route. The second climbs on the other end of the rope.
If several people want to toprope an overhanging or traversing route, you need to re-clip some or all of the draws while lowering.
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marc801
Sep 16, 2013, 2:41 PM
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writingpaper wrote: Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up?
What the hell does that even mean?
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 16, 2013, 7:38 PM
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writingpaper wrote: Suppose I just finished leading a single-pitch sport route and set up an anchor for top rope. While being lowered, I don't unclip anything. Now my partner want to climb on TR, but he is finding that the rope is getting in the way of climbing because it still clipped into all the draws. Should the climber unclip while s/he climbs up on top rope? Or should the leader unclip the draws on the way down whilst being lowered? Should the top roper tie into the other end of the rope (so that the climber is underneath the draws and must unclip while climbing)? Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up? Advice much appreciated.
If you don't know what to do in this situation, you shouldn't be leading. This may sound harsh but this is climbing 101.
My suggestion is to take a class or at the very least try to find it in a book. Do some research. The way you phrased your question leads us to believe that you have no climbing knowledge whatsoever.
I'm not trying to be mean, but I see people do ridiculous things all the time. Take the time to at least get some basic knowledge. Then, when you have a better grasp, come back with a more specific question that is well thought out.
Be safe.
Josh
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writingpaper
Sep 17, 2013, 2:29 AM
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JAB wrote: writingpaper wrote: Suppose I just finished leading a single-pitch sport route and set up an anchor for top rope. While being lowered, I don't unclip anything. Now my partner want to climb on TR, but he is finding that the rope is getting in the way of climbing because it still clipped into all the draws. Should the climber unclip while s/he climbs up on top rope? Or should the leader unclip the draws on the way down whilst being lowered? Should the top roper tie into the other end of the rope (so that the climber is underneath the draws and must unclip while climbing)? Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up? Advice much appreciated. It mainly depends on 2 things: is the route overhanging and/or is the route traversing to the side? If neither, you can clean the route while lowering, and the toproper can then climb without being interrupted by the draws. He can also tie in to the same end as the leader. If the route is overhanging or traversing, it is advisable to leave the draws in. Without the intermediate draws, the second would make a big and potentially dangerous swing if he falls. It might also be impossible to get back on route. The second climbs on the other end of the rope. If several people want to toprope an overhanging or traversing route, you need to re-clip some or all of the draws while lowering.
Thank you. This was very helpful.
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writingpaper
Sep 17, 2013, 2:34 AM
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marc801 wrote: writingpaper wrote: Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up? What the hell does that even mean?
It means the 2nd climber ties into the same end at the leader and just climbs up. The belayer's end of the rope is still clipped in to the draw and creates a lot of drag and there is an annoying rope that the climber has to navigate around.
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writingpaper
Sep 17, 2013, 2:57 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: writingpaper wrote: Suppose I just finished leading a single-pitch sport route and set up an anchor for top rope. While being lowered, I don't unclip anything. Now my partner want to climb on TR, but he is finding that the rope is getting in the way of climbing because it still clipped into all the draws. Should the climber unclip while s/he climbs up on top rope? Or should the leader unclip the draws on the way down whilst being lowered? Should the top roper tie into the other end of the rope (so that the climber is underneath the draws and must unclip while climbing)? Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up? Advice much appreciated. If you don't know what to do in this situation, you shouldn't be leading. This may sound harsh but this is climbing 101. My suggestion is to take a class or at the very least try to find it in a book. Do some research. The way you phrased your question leads us to believe that you have no climbing knowledge whatsoever. I'm not trying to be mean, but I see people do ridiculous things all the time. Take the time to at least get some basic knowledge. Then, when you have a better grasp, come back with a more specific question that is well thought out. Be safe. Josh
Are you lost? This is a beginner's thread. I have taken a lead class, passed the lead test, and am just getting used to leading. I lead in the gym just fine. Its outdoors that I find different. I have seen people set up ropes many different ways outdoors, it is not as clear cut as a gym. And it looks like from some of the responses here, that there are different ways to do it.
By the way, I am doing my research, by ASKING questions in a climbing forum. I am trying to better myself. So what you are saying is, get more knowledge, answer my own question, and then ask a question that I already know.
Take your elitist attitude out of the beginners forum, and brag to your mom about how you told off some girl on the internet. So brave!
Jenn
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shotwell
Sep 17, 2013, 4:08 AM
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writingpaper wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: writingpaper wrote: Suppose I just finished leading a single-pitch sport route and set up an anchor for top rope. While being lowered, I don't unclip anything. Now my partner want to climb on TR, but he is finding that the rope is getting in the way of climbing because it still clipped into all the draws. Should the climber unclip while s/he climbs up on top rope? Or should the leader unclip the draws on the way down whilst being lowered? Should the top roper tie into the other end of the rope (so that the climber is underneath the draws and must unclip while climbing)? Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up? Advice much appreciated. If you don't know what to do in this situation, you shouldn't be leading. This may sound harsh but this is climbing 101. My suggestion is to take a class or at the very least try to find it in a book. Do some research. The way you phrased your question leads us to believe that you have no climbing knowledge whatsoever. I'm not trying to be mean, but I see people do ridiculous things all the time. Take the time to at least get some basic knowledge. Then, when you have a better grasp, come back with a more specific question that is well thought out. Be safe. Josh Are you lost? This is a beginner's thread. I have taken a lead class, passed the lead test, and am just getting used to leading. I lead in the gym just fine. Its outdoors that I find different. I have seen people set up ropes many different ways outdoors, it is not as clear cut as a gym. And it looks like from some of the responses here, that there are different ways to do it. By the way, I am doing my research, by ASKING questions in a climbing forum. I am trying to better myself. So what you are saying is, get more knowledge, answer my own question, and then ask a question that I already know. Take your elitist attitude out of the beginners forum, and brag to your mom about how you told off some girl on the internet. So brave! Jenn
Josh isn't being a dick; he is actually helping you.
Several people have severely screwed up the changeover from leading a steep route to top roping it. Having a climber fall from the chains is no laughing matter. This is a very real possibility that can come about from a very simple mistake.
If you want to learn your systems, check out a proven resource. How to Rock Climb will cover the question you have. After you've read about it, make sure to test the knowledge in an appropriately fail proof setting. Strongly consider asking someone to check your setup before you just go for it.
If you're totally opposed to paying for this information, ask a trusted employee at your gym. Make sure they show the exact scenario you're interested in. Do NOT trust that you understand a verbal or written explanation.
Again, this is a simple concept and a simple system. It is just also simple to screw up. No one wants to see that happen.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 17, 2013, 12:06 PM
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writingpaper wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: writingpaper wrote: Suppose I just finished leading a single-pitch sport route and set up an anchor for top rope. While being lowered, I don't unclip anything. Now my partner want to climb on TR, but he is finding that the rope is getting in the way of climbing because it still clipped into all the draws. Should the climber unclip while s/he climbs up on top rope? Or should the leader unclip the draws on the way down whilst being lowered? Should the top roper tie into the other end of the rope (so that the climber is underneath the draws and must unclip while climbing)? Or should one just leave everything clipped in and suck it up? Advice much appreciated. If you don't know what to do in this situation, you shouldn't be leading. This may sound harsh but this is climbing 101. My suggestion is to take a class or at the very least try to find it in a book. Do some research. The way you phrased your question leads us to believe that you have no climbing knowledge whatsoever. I'm not trying to be mean, but I see people do ridiculous things all the time. Take the time to at least get some basic knowledge. Then, when you have a better grasp, come back with a more specific question that is well thought out. Be safe. Josh Are you lost? This is a beginner's thread. I have taken a lead class, passed the lead test, and am just getting used to leading. I lead in the gym just fine. Its outdoors that I find different. I have seen people set up ropes many different ways outdoors, it is not as clear cut as a gym. And it looks like from some of the responses here, that there are different ways to do it. By the way, I am doing my research, by ASKING questions in a climbing forum. I am trying to better myself. So what you are saying is, get more knowledge, answer my own question, and then ask a question that I already know. Take your elitist attitude out of the beginners forum, and brag to your mom about how you told off some girl on the internet. So brave! Jenn
Exactly one day before I responded to this, I witnessed a leader lead a climb, have his partner tie into the wrong end, have loads of slack at the start of the climb, his partner fell and decked. On toprope.
So excuse me if I offended you.
I am not trying to be a jerk, but often the explanations done on the internet are awkward at best. Maybe I care about your safety. A year from now, you will know what I mean by gaining enough knowledge to ask the right questions. Until then, good luck and be safe.
Josh
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rocknice2
Sep 17, 2013, 1:04 PM
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writingpaper you received good advice from blueeyedclimber.
The question you asked is so rudimentary that it brings doubt whether you are qualified at all.
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writingpaper
Sep 17, 2013, 1:30 PM
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Maybe the question is rudimentary because this is a beginners forum? What the hell did you expect? I am not at all a seasoned climber. I just started lead climbing. Thought I would get additional clarification to the course I took. Yes, my question was stupid, but it I think it is better to ask a stupid question, than to not ask one and climb based on assumptions. Had I not asked the question, I would probably make the same mistake over again. I think it is a shame that this climbing community feels the need to bully beginners who ask stupid questions because they want to be a better/safer climber. It is a shame because the next time, I might think twice about reaching out and continue inefficient practices because I might get flamed on the internet. Its not like I am going to stop lead climbing as per Josh's "advice". I have never heard "you shouldn't be lead climbing" as constructive advice to get better at it. Quite the opposite actually, by practicing, and ASKING QUESTIONS.
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skelldify
Sep 17, 2013, 2:23 PM
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You're not being "bullied" for asking these questions. You're being "bullied" for asking these questions ON THE INTERNET.
You can't be taught how to climb on an Internet forum. You need to find a real-world mentor to explain and demonstrate these techniques in person.
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marc801
Sep 17, 2013, 2:23 PM
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writingpaper wrote: Maybe the question is rudimentary because this is a beginners forum? What the hell did you expect? I am not at all a seasoned climber. I just started lead climbing. Thought I would get additional clarification to the course I took. Yes, my question was stupid, but it I think it is better to ask a stupid question, than to not ask one and climb based on assumptions. Had I not asked the question, I would probably make the same mistake over again. I think it is a shame that this climbing community feels the need to bully beginners who ask stupid questions because they want to be a better/safer climber. It is a shame because the next time, I might think twice about reaching out and continue inefficient practices because I might get flamed on the internet. Its not like I am going to stop lead climbing as per Josh's "advice". I have never heard "you shouldn't be lead climbing" as constructive advice to get better at it. Quite the opposite actually, by practicing, and ASKING QUESTIONS.
You're going to have a difficult time in climbing, school, and life if you are this unable to accept constructive criticism.
Yes, you do get better at leading by practicing and asking questions. But there is a certain minimum level of competence below which someone really shouldn't be leading until they learn more under the guidance of an instructor or mentor. The question you asked wasn't stupid at all - but it demonstrated such a complete lack of understanding of the most basic of climbing safety systems that it called in to question whether you are ready to lead on your own at this point. Some people pointed that out in an effort to keep you and your partners alive and injury-free. Your fragile little ego couldn't handle being told that, at the moment, you really don't quite know what you are doing. Please, grow up and learn some humility.
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lena_chita
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Sep 17, 2013, 2:27 PM
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writingpaper wrote: Maybe the question is rudimentary because this is a beginners forum? What the hell did you expect? I am not at all a seasoned climber. I just started lead climbing. Thought I would get additional clarification to the course I took. Yes, my question was stupid, but it I think it is better to ask a stupid question, than to not ask one and climb based on assumptions. Had I not asked the question, I would probably make the same mistake over again. I think it is a shame that this climbing community feels the need to bully beginners who ask stupid questions because they want to be a better/safer climber. It is a shame because the next time, I might think twice about reaching out and continue inefficient practices because I might get flamed on the internet. Its not like I am going to stop lead climbing as per Josh's "advice". I have never heard "you shouldn't be lead climbing" as constructive advice to get better at it. Quite the opposite actually, by practicing, and ASKING QUESTIONS.
Chill. You asked a question-- good. You got an answer that covered the broad picture, and an advice to seek more qualified instruction.
Honestly, this sort of thing should have been covered in the class that you took. I don't know why it wasn't. But yes, you are correct, leading in the gym and leading outside are different. You will encounter a lot more varied situations, and will need to make more decisions that will affect your safety, and the safety of your partners.
SO the bottom line, regardless of the class you took, and your improved understanding of the mechanics of the situation, after reading this thread, you should NOT yet plan on taking your friends/girlfriend climbing outside and setting up toprope for them. You need to go with people who are more experienced on your first trip outside.
This scenario is not at all uncommon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aybyT6MZtwE
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 17, 2013, 2:38 PM
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writingpaper wrote: Maybe the question is rudimentary because this is a beginners forum? What the hell did you expect? I am not at all a seasoned climber. I just started lead climbing. Thought I would get additional clarification to the course I took. Yes, my question was stupid, but it I think it is better to ask a stupid question, than to not ask one and climb based on assumptions. Had I not asked the question, I would probably make the same mistake over again. I think it is a shame that this climbing community feels the need to bully beginners who ask stupid questions because they want to be a better/safer climber. It is a shame because the next time, I might think twice about reaching out and continue inefficient practices because I might get flamed on the internet. Its not like I am going to stop lead climbing as per Josh's "advice". I have never heard "you shouldn't be lead climbing" as constructive advice to get better at it. Quite the opposite actually, by practicing, and ASKING QUESTIONS.
Since you didn't find my advice helpful....
Here's me being helpful.....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0898866820
Josh
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Gmburns2000
Sep 17, 2013, 4:07 PM
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writingpaper wrote: Maybe the question is rudimentary because this is a beginners forum? What the hell did you expect? I am not at all a seasoned climber. I just started lead climbing. Thought I would get additional clarification to the course I took. Yes, my question was stupid, but it I think it is better to ask a stupid question, than to not ask one and climb based on assumptions. Had I not asked the question, I would probably make the same mistake over again. I think it is a shame that this climbing community feels the need to bully beginners who ask stupid questions because they want to be a better/safer climber. It is a shame because the next time, I might think twice about reaching out and continue inefficient practices because I might get flamed on the internet. Its not like I am going to stop lead climbing as per Josh's "advice". I have never heard "you shouldn't be lead climbing" as constructive advice to get better at it. Quite the opposite actually, by practicing, and ASKING QUESTIONS.
stop the drama for god's sake. yeah, it's a beginner's forum, but what you're missing here is that the question is so rudimentary that it shouldn't be asked by someone who is leading. In other words, a person who is leading really should have this knowledge already.
The point of the responses, therefore, is to get you to understand that you need to get some more basics under your belt before you just go out and start leading stuff and (as it sounds by your original question) setting up top ropes for other people to climb.
Or it's a good troll. Can't tell. radar is off these days.
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rocknice2
Sep 17, 2013, 4:11 PM
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In reply to: What the hell did you expect?
We expect a base knowledge of skills to feel comfortable in doling out further advice.
Your right this is the beginners forum and it's meant to advise beginner climbers not teach.
This may stem from the fact that you took an indoor lead class and didn't follow it with an outdoor transition class or a mentor that can literally show you the ropes.
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ChalkIsCheap
Sep 17, 2013, 5:06 PM
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writingpaper wrote: Maybe the question is rudimentary because this is a beginners forum? What the hell did you expect? I am not at all a seasoned climber. I just started lead climbing. Thought I would get additional clarification to the course I took. Yes, my question was stupid, but it I think it is better to ask a stupid question, than to not ask one and climb based on assumptions. Had I not asked the question, I would probably make the same mistake over again. I think it is a shame that this climbing community feels the need to bully beginners who ask stupid questions because they want to be a better/safer climber. It is a shame because the next time, I might think twice about reaching out and continue inefficient practices because I might get flamed on the internet. Its not like I am going to stop lead climbing as per Josh's "advice". I have never heard "you shouldn't be lead climbing" as constructive advice to get better at it. Quite the opposite actually, by practicing, and ASKING QUESTIONS.
A guy who was a lead climber in our gym was seconding a route that a buddy of his lead and as it went across the ceiling he unclipped the draws as he climbed, Out of habbit when he got to the anchors he dropped the rope over the super shuts as if clipping them and let go. Since the rope was already through the super shuts he was no longer attached to the wall and fell 30ft injuring his back. The climber was experienced and just did the dumb move out of habbit.
If you are setting up a scenario where someone elses inexperience or just a dumb mistake can get them killed you better know exactly what you are doing and the appropriate steps to make sure it does not happen. Only an experienced instructor can properly evaluate whether or not you know what you are doing, not some random people on the internet.
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sbaclimber
Sep 17, 2013, 6:47 PM
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ChalkIsCheap wrote: ...habbit...
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ChalkIsCheap
Sep 17, 2013, 10:18 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: ChalkIsCheap wrote: ...habbit... Is that related to a hobbit?
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Lucas420
Oct 17, 2013, 5:20 PM
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welcome to RC.com! get used to a little crustiness, but josh was indeed quite polite.
We're not talking about baseball here, we're not talking about figure skating, we're talking about a sport where even the most basic mistake with a set up or knot can literally end your life. Many of those here have actually witnessed this happen in real life, so often feedback to someone new is designed to scare you into seeking REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, not just off a paragraph posted in a blog.
In reality, climbing is the ultimate experience in self reliance - best to start now - there are a number of books available at any gear shop (how to rock climb, freedom of the hills) that will show you the various set ups, from there you can get an understanding and ask informed questions.
yes this is a beginner forum, however the post you put up was so out of whack, it really is wise to follow his instructions.
Lead climbing entails more than just the act of climbing, it also includes all the issues you yourself just called out like what to do in with the second climber, how to clean it, what scenarios require you to leave the rope clipped in etc. Its not as simple as climbing.
Go ahead and keep practicing in the gym, but please, find someone who you can learn from before you put yourself or others at risk based on info gleaned from RC.com.
Good luck!
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yves
Oct 17, 2013, 8:04 PM
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A good example of why this (excellent) web site is getting less and less interesting ... why cannot the people be a little less judgmental especially in a beginners's forum and answer right away.
Nobody should feel that he needs to answer all posts in all forum ...
It is funny to see the same guy saying that you should not not learn in rcl.com while giving lengthy explanations about why the question is (supposedly) "stupid" and intervening like at least three times a week ...
I have not been a beginner for a long time (unfortunately so to speak), but reading all that by pure chance maybe ... I suggest we should close the beginner forum ... ?!
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Lucas420
Oct 18, 2013, 1:47 PM
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I think the beginner forum is worth keeping around. If we can help remind some people that they actually need to seek out real world help, then its worth it.
I think regardless of the negativity here, the original poster is most likely going to seek out someone in the real world to help show her what to do. If it wasn't all stated in the most political way, so be it - this is not unique to RC.com, this is common among all message boards.
if you're going to raise your hand with a question, don't get mad at the answers. Again, maybe not politically stated but in this case, perhaps an accident has been prevented. People take these questions seriously because in climbing, you can literally kill yourself with a simple misunderstanding of a system. And at the end of the day, guess who gets to clean up the mess? yep, those with experience who happen to be at the crag when someone craters. The climbing community has every right in being defensive and unpolitical since at the end of the day, its those with experience who have to package you up and get you out of the crag you went to without knowing what you are doing.
Essentially people like the original poster, without seeking real world help makes herself OUR responsibility when she chooses to hit the crag, so people give hard, but good advice.
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majid_sabet
Oct 18, 2013, 5:15 PM
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spot climbing for beginners is like using calculator to do math. once battery dies you become a clueless subject hanging on a rope trying to figure things out.
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