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Trinucleotide
Oct 25, 2014, 1:12 AM
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All bolts in this area have been removed. The area is on private property and is not open to climbing. Personnel has been instructed to alert the authorities for trespassing if they see anyone climbing.
(This post was edited by Trinucleotide on Oct 25, 2014, 1:17 AM)
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gblauer
Moderator
Oct 27, 2014, 5:47 PM
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That's interesting. I was in MTY last week and I had an invitation to climb there!
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Trinucleotide
Oct 27, 2014, 6:22 PM
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Hi there. I'm glad you posted this as I would hate for climbers to get into trouble for being misinformed. Some local climbers claim that it is ok to climb there if you access the crag via the riverbed. While riverbeds are legally federal land, the walls, approaches, and belay ledges are on private land. The land owners do not allow any form of rock climbing, and both routes bolted by trespassing climbers have been removed.
(This post was edited by Trinucleotide on Oct 27, 2014, 6:42 PM)
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sonso45
Oct 28, 2014, 12:03 AM
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Hi there Trinucleotide, who are you? How can you make this statement? Are you the owner of a mine there?
I understand that it is a National Park with access issues that require a pass from the Federal govt. The following is the park's website: http://cumbres_mty.conanp.gob.mx/index.php
(This post was edited by sonso45 on Oct 28, 2014, 12:23 AM)
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Trinucleotide
Oct 28, 2014, 2:25 PM
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Hi sonso45
Yes, my family has owned that land for many generations. I am also a climber, excited about new crag opportunities just like anyone else, but I honor the current limitations on rockclimbing in that area.
CONANP represents natural preserves in Mexico, and part of that land (above a certain elevation) is deemed as a preserve. It's status as a preserve makes it subject to strict development restrictions, however it does not put private ownership into question.
Special permits to access the area for hiking have been issued in the past. However, access for the purpose of rockclimbing is not something that is currently on the table, as climbing poses a significant liability, and permanent development implications (bolting).
My main reason to post here isn't to argue the legality of access, but rather to ensure that people are well informed and not misled to think it is an open crag. Anyone found climbing on this property will be held legally accountable for trespassing, and if any more lines are bolted, they will be removed just as the previous ones have.
I hope this clarifies matters more.
(This post was edited by Trinucleotide on Oct 28, 2014, 2:43 PM)
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sonso45
Oct 28, 2014, 2:47 PM
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Thanks for the reply T. My name is Manny. My profile is open to view. I have nothing to hide.
I understand about private property rights. You are correct in yanking bolts placed on your property. I'll stay off.
The rest of the park is not private.
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chacha
Oct 29, 2014, 3:28 AM
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hola a todos, con respecto a la zona del diente en monterrey, personalmente he visitado el lugar y puedo constatar feacientemente que las paredes del diente y cuevas aledañas se encuentran dentro de los linderos de el parque nacional cumbres de monterrey y por lo tanto al mencionar que esa tierra les pertenece desde hace generaciones es exponer públicamente que se han apropiado de tierras protegidas de carácter federal y las han explotado durante generaciones, también cabe aclarar que los terrenos aledaños al los linderos del parque se encuentran en litigio de los actuales habitantes y los pobladores de la colonia que fueron expulsados de esos predios. también puedo constatar que el cause del rió ha sido desviado y afectado dentro de los limites del parque y que eso es en si un delito.
en Mexico existen leyes que nos permiten disfrutar de los parajes declarados como parque nacional cubriendo una cuota de acceso, y los predios que se encuentran dentro del paso hacia este lugar deberán ceder derecho de paso. al informarnos de esto nos queda claro que nuestra parte de esto es respetar las formas legales para acceder a el paraje y pedir mediante derecho, ese paso. y también queda claro que, al tramitar nuestro permiso para acceder a la zona adquirimos la responsabilidad de respetar el lugar y preservarlo. alegar categóricamente que los bolts serán removidos e aceptar que se han apropiado de terrenos que nos les pertenecen y que violan derechos constitucionales.
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Trinucleotide
Oct 29, 2014, 10:57 AM
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Saludos a todos,
Como previamente dicho, el propósito de comentar aquí no es litigar la legalidad del acceso a El Diente. Eso se hace en la corte y no en un foro de internet. El propósito de estos posts es asegurar de que la gente tenga un entendimiento más completo acerca de el tema de acceso para que puedan tomar decisiones informadas con respecto sus acciones.
Hello to everyone,
As previously stated, the purpose of these posts is not to argue the legality of access to El diente. That is done in the court room and not on an internet forum. The purpose of these posts is to ensure that people have a full understanding of access issues so they can make informed decisions about their actions.
(This post was edited by Trinucleotide on Oct 29, 2014, 3:33 PM)
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markgrundon
Oct 31, 2014, 6:31 AM
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I have seen Joel's permit from the Federal Government stating Joel is permitted to:
"escalada en roca en la zona conocida como El Diente localizado dentro del Parque Nacional Cumbres de Monterrey"
My understanding is that it is only open to those holding a permit such as Joel.
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sonso45
Oct 31, 2014, 5:30 PM
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That's true Mark but you can also apply for a permit. As T says, it's up to the Mexican courts to litigate her family's property rights and her desire to keep you out of the park entirely.
This issue goes beyond climbing since it is already in litigation. I understand people were removed from the area and visitation severely limited until recently.
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burzum
Oct 31, 2014, 7:21 PM
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hi guys! this is for everyone to know!
1-. DONT GET CONFUSED OR SCARED BY INFORMATION YOU DO NOT HAVE AT HAND
2-. THE PROPERTY IN LITIGATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RIVER AND CANYON (EL DIENTE) ,SINCE THE CANYON IS NATIONAL PROPERTY SINCE 1929 (which national territory/property cannot be taken away by proscription, seized or transferred).
3-. THAT IS WHY MY LOVING FRIENDS ,THE FEDERAL GOV. ISSUES MINIGING PERMIT/CONCESION SO THAT U CAN XTRACT THE MATERIAL FROM THE GROUND AND GIVES YOU A RIGHT OVER UNDERGROUND AREAS NOT OVER THE GROUND AND I MEAN U DO NOT GET ROYAL RIGHTS ABOVE THE FLOOR LEVEL, SEE : MINING FEDERAL LAW RULES OF MEXICO.
4-.THE RIVER IS FEDERAL PROPERTY ASWELL WHERE IT BURNS OR EMERGES ,IT DOES AT THE CANYON (EL DIENTE), THE FEDERAL WATER LAWS AND RULES CLEARLY STATES ,THAT FROM WHERE THE CURRENT IS ,THE NATION PROPERTY GOES 10 METERS TO THE SIDES! SO WE ARE GOOD TO WALK IN! LAW 113 FRACTION III AND IV ETC.AND THE WATER SOURCES AND CURRENT CANNOT BE OWNED BY PRIVATE ENTITIES!
5-. THE EMVIROMENTAL AND FORESTAL LAW /RULES ,CONTEMPLATE THAT HILLS OVER 45 DEGREE ANGLE AND VERTICAL WALLS BELONG TO THE NATION ,FI THERES IS A PROPERTY THAT HAS WALLS IN THE END OF IT THE PRIVATE LAND ENDS 10 M INFRONT OF THE WALL .
6-. THERE IS NO SUCH A COURT THING IN TO THIS ISSUE SINCE ALL THIS LAWS WHERE CREATED TO KEEP PEOPLE AWAY FROM TRYING TO(INVADE) PRIVATIZE FEDERAL NATIONAL PROPERTIES LIKE ,RIVERS,LAKES,MOUNTAINS ,CANYONS AND SOME OTHER LANDS.
LIKE I SAID ,IT A MERE ISSUE OF FIND OUT THE TRUE AND DONT BELIVE WHAT PEOPLE TELL YOU, U HAVE TO READ THE LAWS AND INQUIRE, THAT SIMPLE! FINDING THE TRUE IS LIKE CLIMBING ! [reply][/reply][reply][/reply][reply][/reply][reply]
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Trinucleotide
Nov 4, 2014, 5:49 PM
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It seems this conversation now has several layers.
To clarify, El Diente has been a private property since the early 1900s, and remained a private property even after it was decreed part of the ANP land known as Cumbres National Park in 1939. In fact, only 20% of Mexico's national parks are public land. The remaining portions are largely social property/ejidos (60%), private property (12%), and undefined (8%)*. The misleading title of National Park refers to it's federally protected ecological status, not its ownership. El Diente, like other areas of Cumbres Park such as the caves of El Manzano, is legally recognized as a private property.
CONANP will issue pases to guiding services or to people who will access the park for recreational usage in a commercial capacity. The passes will not, however, hold up as valid to access private portions of ANP land unless a second permission is granted by the land owners. You may contact the Cumbres Park CONANP office for more information (81 81 91 06 64), or review page 146 of the ANP's administration guidelines.**
*http://www.biodiversidad.gob.mx/pais/pdf/CapNatMex/Vol%20II/II09_Areas%20naturales%20protegidas%20y%20desarrollo%20social%20en%20Mex.pdf
**http://www.conanp.gob.mx/anp/consulta/PCM-20DIC06.pdf
(This post was edited by Trinucleotide on Nov 13, 2014, 4:59 PM)
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burzum
Nov 5, 2014, 11:32 PM
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El Diente was never private,it always was a non regulated federal property, it was possessed by those exploiting the mines, the canyon was expropriated from its possessors in 1926,with this the national property belongs to the country it self and for the joy of its citizens, and NOT for the use of a few!.
CONANP issues rock climbing permits for private and public areas, in el Diente case as the federal water law and embiramental ,national property law and a bunch more , Dont require you to ask for permission since all of those are free access ,roads ,rivers ,canyons etc.
keeping people away from el diente was effective due to people's ignorance of law.
there is no canyon that is private property with features(natural beauty) that holds el Diente!, i dont say it, the law speaks it self and the property national declaratory !
there are many land owners in the whole country invading federal property everywhere, and i mean possessors, unregulated squatters,legitimate land owners trying to take advantage its its location(el diente is the case), to find out about el Diente history ,information can be found in the general estate archive of Nuevo Leon, you can see , who first was there, and how the mining permits passed from hand to hand.
El Diente canyon was always Federal property ,back in the day was not regulated and identified and made part the public federal property registry , it was just taken by its possesors,then the canyon was expropriated, the actual private land down the river was a non regulated federal property aswell that later on some families claimed as theirs due to their possesion, that was a place where people lived before everything happened, the people living there abandoned the place due to lack of work or was illegaly kick out of their houses by In reply to: wealthy people interest and corrupted public allies like government employees, who knows? ,we dont care ,its not our issue! the topic here ! it is to let people know and climbers that El Diente is not private and there is no legal land paper ownership that can contravene the federal public property law and if so it would be fraudulent/illegitimate and would be taken under investigation by the Many Federal Bureaus involved in guarding and protecting the country's national lands. 
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