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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 6:43 PM
Post #26 of 35
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Registered: Jun 24, 2002
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It's very simple to avoid cross-loading on a biner clipped into the waist belt and leg loops. I've never had a problem with it. I use a reverso belay/rap device and it works smoothly clipped into the two loops. I would argue, and in fact, am arguing, that it is safer to rappel with a biner clipped through the leg and waist loops rather than just the belay loop.
No one I know raps off only their belay loop - WHY? They wouldn't trust their life clipped into the single loop on rappel - so why trust your buddy's life to it when he is on lead?
You can keep a closer, more secure, more controlled belay by having the belay device cipped into both loops.
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jt512
Jan 21, 2003, 6:53 PM
Post #27 of 35
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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Quote:
It's very simple to avoid cross-loading on a biner clipped into the waist belt and leg loops. I've never had a problem with it.
Well, other people have "had a problem with it." They're all dead now, and hence, unable to give their side of the story. Maybe your "problem with it" will happen next weekend.
-Jay
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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 6:56 PM
Post #28 of 35
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Well - I'm not worried about it.
But thanks for your concern.
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tanner
Jan 21, 2003, 7:01 PM
Post #29 of 35
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Registered: Apr 28, 2002
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It better to use a double bowline if you want to used a "clipn' go" system its easer on the rope and is easyer to untie.
I think its totaly safe for top rop climbing. I would be more carefull of poor anchers and belayers that don't have a clue. As for being weak A cross loaded beaner in good for about 7kn right.
In a top rope situation where are you going to get 7kn?
See Its safe.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 7:12 PM
Post #30 of 35
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Registered: Aug 20, 2002
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aarong wrote:
"No one I know raps off only their belay loop - WHY? They wouldn't trust their life clipped into the single loop on rappel - so why trust your buddy's life to it when he is on lead?"
That's funny. EVERYONE I know rappels and belays with the belay loop.
Do you really that belaying off the tie-in points is safer becuase thir are 2 pieces of webbing??? The leader is constantly trusting his life to one piece of webbing!!! That is what you clip into when you place a piece of gear or clip a bolt. A runner or draw is just ONE PIECE OF WEBBING. And that is the point at which impact forces are highest. Or do you always use 2 runners/draws? . . .
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jbur
Jan 21, 2003, 7:19 PM
Post #31 of 35
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Registered: Oct 14, 2001
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As for clipping in while top roping, just use double lockers (acceptable) or tie in (best). Belay/rappel loops are called that for a reason. They prevent the biner from becoming cross loaded which has been attributed to a few accidents. I Looked through ANAM and couldn't find reference to a belay loop breaking. Jody
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crazywacky
Jan 21, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #32 of 35
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Registered: Jan 31, 2002
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OK..here goes..flame-throwers set to BBQ:
Cracklover,
At the gym I work at, the harnesses only have one point to tie/clip in to.
We use the Petzl Tetrax and the Pandion.
As seen in the image below, they only have one point, the little loop of webbing just above the waist.
For my personal harness, I use the leg/waist combo...The way my carabiner fits into it, it doesn't shift around to allow cross loading. And anytime I weight the system, the webbing comes to the same point eliminating any triaxial loading.
redpoint73,
I understand the concerns you have, but I do take every care when I do clip to the rope instead of tying. Even the manual on my harness says clipping an eight to my harness is good.
Is my harness manufacturer wrong?
Also, I'm curious if there is any Insurance/Liability issues involved in how the gyms have customers attach to the rope.. having the climbers tie in vs. having the knots pre-tied...I'll check on that.
Speaking with the gym owner, it seemed the safer alternative.
It is much safer having Mom clip her son/daughter into a pre-tied/checked figure eight. Instead of trying to teach her how to handle the rope and tie the knot and run the belay device and watch her child to make sure he/she is safe.
And when you have 90-100 people in a gym, trying to make sure everyone is in properly would take an extraordinary amount of manpower.
And people can use a gri-gri without knowing how to tie an eight...
The TRs are all set up with the gri-gris locked with a quick link, which is then clipped to the harness so we don't have Mommy and Daddy trying to thread the rope the wrong way and inadvertently killing or injuring their child.
Also, using a pre-tied knot is not lazy; especially in a gym situation.
It is more efficient.
(wow..starting to get warm in here)
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kindredlion
Jan 21, 2003, 7:31 PM
Post #33 of 35
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Registered: Aug 7, 2002
Posts: 146
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HOLY CANOLY!!!
THank You BradHill For being a breath of reality in this debate over who's got the most current textbook!
THE ONLY TEXTBOOK RULE THAT IS ALWAYS TRUE...
EVERYTHING IS SITUATIONAL!!
Definition for textbook driven typewriter monkeys :
What works well in one situation, may or may not work well in another. What could never apply to one situation may be necessary, in an almost identical situation, with minor environmental changes.
My being so young, I can only say this from experience...
"Try and use your heads, Kids"
If you are an individual that is still learning (this category includes ALL of us), we can never be sure about an unfamiliar situation, without applicable data. Now if we don't own that particular edition of the Falcon HOWTO series... what?!?! are we SOL?..... Of course not, we draw from our greatest data pool... EXPERIENCE
Now maybe this is just me, but...
If I am in a situation that may be unfamiliar, and I feel there is something that I am missing in order to proceed safely, what am I to do?
-Retreat immediately?
-Cry and Wail, and make someone drop you a rope, or come to your rescue?
-Curse your self silly for getting into that scenario in the first place?
-Curse your partner silly, for having got you into this scenario?
-Understand that you put yourself there... (after your done cursing) You had to overcome various hurdles, and solve various problems to get there, why stop now?
You may not have read that chapter, you may not have prior experience, you may never have even imagined this situation could exist... But you're there!
Whatever calculations you take to come to whatever conclusion, leading to whatever result, you can bet that once your done, sitting safe at home on front of your piles of Falcon HOWTO, you will begin to ask the questions....
Was what I did the best possible thing I could have done in that scenario?
Is there a recorded history of this scenario?
What would other people have done, if they imagined being in that spot?
What HAVE people done in that (now completely hypothetical) scenario?
All of that data you compile, may lead you to a different result than what you came up with on the wall.
Bottom line here is (sorry for the long windedness of this RANT)
Keep passing around suggestions keep learning, and sharing, But :
DON'T EVER GET STUCK DOING THINGS ONE WAY!!
Be prepared to recognize A Better Way (plug:PTPP) to every situation.
Definition for text book driven typewriter monkeys :
What works well in one situation, may or may not work well in another. What could never apply to one situation may be necessary, in an almost identical situation, with minor environmental changes.
____________________________________________
I owe Everone an apology I am always miffed by the tunnel vision of some folks, and chose this as a medium to vent.
Slightly off of the main topic, but I feel I touched on an important point here.
DONT RESTRICT YOURSELF TO WHAT YOU READ !
(remember its people that write this stuff, and they are not infallible)
You can learn a lot from books, and bulletin boards. You can answer a lot of questions by asking.
Nothing replaces a mentor. Whether its a more experienced partner for a day, where you can milk her for answers, and plead for her to ropegun some stuff you wouldn't touch. Or a certified AMGA guide for a week. A couple like minded individuals you spot at the Crag, can teach you a lot about what you feel is right and wrong compared to what they feel is right and wrong.
OK FINE !
Done... (4now)
Take Air,
Adam
Editted Because My HTML Tagging seems to suck Royally!! Unlike my gear tagging wich you get when you ask nicely..
[ This Message was edited by: kindredlion on 2003-01-24 11:47 ]
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crazywacky
Jan 21, 2003, 7:40 PM
Post #34 of 35
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Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 409
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Bonus points for kindredlion
You got what none of use could see...
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 7:52 PM
Post #35 of 35
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Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
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If mommy and daddy don't know how to thread a Gri-gri, then they also probably don't understand that it won't lock/cam if the body of the device gets shoved against your body. My point is that if you can't tie a figure-8, you are a novice. And a Gri-gri is not a device for a novice, despite popular belief.
In any case, those "party" climbing gyms scare me(where beginners belay each other, and there are always big b-day parties for kids). I have seen other/safer gyms host parties, and employee belayers are part of the party package. I personally don't like the mentality that rock climbing is something you can just put on a pair of shoes and try with little or no instruction. A certain amount of instruction is required to be safe. You wouldn't have a SCUBA party and hand out wet suits to people with no training, would you???
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