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acrophobic
Jan 17, 2003, 10:31 PM
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No matter how well behaved a dog is, he can be subject to random behavior. I have a tame and well behaved dog... but he bit a Gas Meter guy before for no apparent reason.. we later found out he had an infection and must of effected his behavior temporarily. Had to fight not to put him down and give the guy 500 bucks in “damages” (i.e. bribe).
Some guys fear dogs, some hate them, some love them. What I HATE the most is when I’m eating my lunch, a big dog will come up from 2 ropes down and stand over me trying to get food. If a dog did come at me growling I wouldn’t hesitate to give it a kick in the head with a hiking boot. I love dogs and have my won, but I don’t want them slobbering all over me when I’m belaying or trying to get my food.
If you think you can trust your dog to behave, then take him… but don’t get upset if people start yelling at you if he wanders off.
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leaverbiner
Jan 17, 2003, 10:32 PM
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Pushfurther - you are not "an animal lover" by any stretch of the imagination, unless you are refering to your late-night activities that are illegal in all 50 states . . . your statement is absolutely repulsive. The mere fact that you could even contemplate such an act belies your proclamation . . . I don't think I have ever been more disgusted by a post - no not the simple threat to a dog, but byt he gaul you have to consider yourself a lover of animals . . . your references to working in an animal shelter are useless . . . that's like saying "I have a black friend therefore I can't be racist" - if you can't see how that statement is illogical and riddled with problems then I guess you'll never see the problems and incosistencies between your prior posts.
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pushfurther
Jan 17, 2003, 11:06 PM
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Quote:I don't think I have ever been more disgusted by a post
my objective has been completed.
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climbingfoo
Jan 17, 2003, 11:24 PM
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There's a climber with a rottie that chills at Jack Canyon the couple of times I've been there. I haven't seen any problems from the rottie. Yep, it runs off leash. So, you aren't alone.
A lot of places don't allow big dogs, espically breeds that have been infamously broadcasted on the media. You'll want to check ahead to make sure there are motels that are willing to house a rottie.
As for climbing crags, it'll be nice/polite to leash your dog somewhere close by but away from the wall, like 20 feet or so. However, most dogs run loose.
Loose/off leash dogs are annoying at times, but most climbers I know are tolerant of it.
Good luck!
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offwidthclimber
Jan 17, 2003, 11:29 PM
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hey dorks,
just remember, your dog is like your children. you think they are the cutest, best behaved things ever, while the rest of world views them as irritating pains in the ass.
love,
a fellow dog owner
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scottharms
Jan 17, 2003, 11:36 PM
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If the dog is cool around people take em, if not leave him at home. I have two black labs, one of them comes the other stays at home. Use a leash, nobody likes wet muddy dog running over his rope and gear(speaking from experienc). Cheers.
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pushfurther
Jan 18, 2003, 12:26 AM
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right on lynne. and i we ever meet at the crag i'll thank you for keeping her on a leash.
i've only liked one dog that was off leash at the crag. she stayed beside her owner while he wasn't climbing, and stared with concern while he was leading.
the others i've seen either laid down on crashpads while people were climbing above them or started fights with other dogs with invisible owners.
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oldskool
Jan 18, 2003, 5:47 AM
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look at it like tis...wut wood u do if a dog attackd u just b cuz u walked up 2 send yer latest 5.chuff? u wood b pissed, at least. so: if yer dog is MEAN, LEAVE IT AT HOME. simple. my frends dog is super-sweet and gentl. sum out-of-towner chik brought her dog 2 tha krag, claiming "frendly pit bull" we beleevd her. later, super-sweet getz 45 stitches and pit gets a beat down. wurd
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pancaketom
Jan 18, 2003, 5:47 AM
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Seems like if someone asks for advice, then they should expect responses all over the spectrum, not just what they want to hear. I have travelled and climbed with and without a dog, and I must admit it is a pain in the butt not being able to go places because of the dog. (but better than dealing with it when that adorable, nice, (but rather neurotic) rottie bites someone.(this happened to me)) It really depends on where you are going and how well behaved the dog is. Some dogs just walk next to you and then curl up with the gear for the day. Others tear around terrorizing the crag, stealing food, chasing other dogs, raising clouds of dust, etc. etc.
You need to seriously think about how your dog will behave and if that will make the trip better for all involved. Many dogs are well behaved on their own, but when they get together with the pack at the crag, then all hell breaks loose. Not much fun for anyone except maybe the top dogs.
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greyghost
Jan 18, 2003, 10:42 PM
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Dear RoninThorneinmyass,
I will take a dog that barks and walks on my rope over a climber that thinks his $#!& does not stink every day of the week. I take my dog to Franklin Rocks/Smoke Hole all the time and have never had a problem. And until the landowners ask me otherwise I will continue to do so. My dog has every right to be there, the same as you do. If you are not going to take your dog with you, you should not have one.
matt
don't stop the scream
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epic_ed
Jan 20, 2003, 6:35 AM
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FWIW, I have a Rottie that used to be a great crag dog. She's a little too old and has arthritis now. I always kept her on leash, regardless of her cupcake personality. Some people simply fear large dogs, and breeds like Rotties in particular, so I always try to keep that in mind in public places.
I think your biggest consideration in making this decision is the weather. Summer heat is freakin' lethal for dogs and you'll constantly be weighing your options for doing stuff you want/need to do against how to keep the dog from baking. Need to grocery shop? Where's the dog going to stay? Not in the car in the middle of summer. It's raining but still hot and it might be nice to go catch a movie while the storm passes. Oops! Can't. Don't have any place to leave the dog, and you can't even roll down the windows for the pooch for even a few minutes because it's raining. How about that nice, relaxing after crag dinner at a restaurant? Sure would be nice to chill and have a beer, but what are you going to do with the dog?
I run into this problem all the time with my dog; mainly because I live in AZ and we often have to consider the heat before planning anything. I think you'll find the obstacles outweigh the benefits for a climbing road trip with a dog, but I know how tough it is to leave them behind. Just be prepared for the contingencies during the summer if you decide to take her.
Ed
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ambler
Jan 20, 2003, 3:35 PM
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There are places that are good and bad for dogs. At the local crags I know which are which, and can decide whether or not to bring my dog along for a day trip. On a road trip you'll be in many different situations and not know what to expect -- it could be a lot harder to keep the dog out of trouble.
Besides the people-interactions that others are writing about here, there can be trouble with other animals -- mean dogs, porcupines, skunks, bears, deer, snakes. Trouble with rules about where dogs can stay or hike. Trouble with terrain -- cactus, broken glass, sharp rocks, places to fall off of. There is trouble a dog can get into when tied up on a leash and you're somewhere up off the ground. Or when left in a motel room, or a car. I've seen too many of these things, so I don't invite mine along on road trips.
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roninthorne
Jan 20, 2003, 4:28 PM
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dear greyghost/matt-
It is obvious that you took quite a number of options over the concept of actually having a personality.
This discussion was about dogs on a road trip. Nowhere did I feel or indicate any sort of superiority to anyone who chose to address the topic under discussion. I did choose to respond rather abruptly to someone who climbed up on their soapbox to judge my admittedly offbeat humor as "having issues". If you have a deep interpersonal relationship with the individual so addressed, I understand your need to leap to their defense. But until they cry for help, why not try to actually read what is going on and let them fight their own battles?
And, finally, thank you for exacerbating the access and impact issues at the Franklin crags with your statement on dogs, a shining paragon of rational debate if ever there was one... and when we lose the Franklin crag because of boneheads like you? Well, then, I hope you enjoy the accompanying acclaim that will be yours, as well.
BTW and FYI; I do understand that my excrement possesses odor... it's just that, unlike you, apparently, I don't feel the need to smear myself, the local crags, and this forum with it just to prove the point.
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ambler
Jan 20, 2003, 4:38 PM
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There are places that are good and bad for dogs. At the local crags I know which are which, and can decide whether or not to bring my dog along for a day trip. On a road trip you'll be in many different situations and not know what to expect -- it could be a lot harder to keep the dog out of trouble.
Besides the people-interactions that others are writing about here, there can be trouble with other animals -- mean dogs, porcupines, skunks, bears, deer, snakes. Trouble with rules about where dogs can stay or hike. Trouble with terrain -- cactus, broken glass, sharp rocks, places to fall off of. There is trouble a dog can get into when tied up on a leash and you're somewhere up off the ground. Or when left in a motel room, or a car. I've seen too many of these things, so I don't invite mine along on road trips.
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eastsider
Jan 22, 2003, 2:02 AM
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Roninthorne/Mike
While reading your thread of posts with Greyghost and Leaverbiner I have come up with several things.
First dogs are hardly the main concern for climbing areas throughout the world. Obviously this is just your opion, not fact. I would have to say that parking, land owner/climber relations, and protective posseiveness by climbers (rrrrhm...sorrry had to clear my throat) are the main issues, not in any particular order.
I have never seen or heard of a climbing area closed due specifically to dogs. I know of crags being closed for other reasons though. Hmmm lets see...both Summersville Lake,WV and Sauratown, NC were both nearly closed due to parking area/landowner issues. Not dogs.
I have seen many areas be threatened by our behavoir as a community in general. I have wittnessed rangers, police, landowners, whomever ask groups of climbers to calm down after partying too loudly at the end of longs days worth of pulling down. It happens everywhere: rangers in YNP, Rogger's at the NRG, Hueco...simple common sense and considerateness fixes this.
Hmmm...lets see. Now if there is no sign posting that dogs are not allowed, then let the dogs come. Obviously you won't see a dog where it is too dangerous/difficult for one to be taken. Most owners are pretty good about that. No Bigwalls, alpine, YNP...etc. They also generally are not as bad as you wish to make them. They should be on a leash, and most of the time they are... now you can do your part to be TOLLERANT by giving the dog some space when you walk by if you don't want to deal with it.
IF there is a sign that says NO DOGS...then no dogs. Their land , their rules. Pretty simple. If you want to see zero dogs, go climb there. No one is forcing you to do either or...the dog people have same rights that you do.
As for a dog getting something from hagging out for the day, then I have to ask if you really have ever owned a dog or are just saying that for a matter of convience for your post. I really don't think this needs any explaining if it does then you have never been show affection by a dog. But this is irrelevant to the debate. Period. Looks to me like you are trying to cause $#!& for the sake of it.
AS for Greyghost helping out Leaverbiner...eat it. you said in this very topic to expect for people to defend themselves and their ideas. How do you know tha Leaverbiner did not ask for help privately. Think before you type or don't type.
Cheers
A
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canclimber
Jan 22, 2003, 2:13 AM
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LEAVE YOUR DOG AT HOME!
I was climbing at Vantage, WA this past fall and a dog attacked a woman. She was badly mauled and all the owner could say was that his dog was sweet and has never attacked anyone BEFORE. A long story short, the owner was criminally charged and his dog was destroyed. Sadly enough no dog is totally predictable. Leave it at home.
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roninthorne
Jan 23, 2003, 3:47 PM
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Adam/eastside-
>>"First dogs are hardly the main concern for climbing areas throughout the world."
Allow me to quote you by way of reply:
"Obviously this is just your opinion, not fact."
>> I would have to say that parking (is one main concern)...
Really? PARKING!?! Well, gollygeewhiz... I guess the main pro-climbing activism group better change their name to the PARKING Fund, then, hmmm?
>>land owner/climber relations
Which are usually disrupted by climber impact (trash, erosion, trespassing, noise, etc.). Impact which dogs, who have no discrimination in the matter, only exacerbate, leading to problems with- you guessed it- ACCESS.
>>>I have never seen or heard of a climbing area closed due specifically to dogs.
"And since I have never seen or heard of it, it never happened and doesn't exist."
>>>I have seen many areas be threatened by our behavoir as a community in general...simple common sense and considerateness fixes this.
Right... like the simple common sense consideration that other people don't need your dog in their belay, pack, face, etc.
>>>Now if there is no sign posting that dogs are not allowed, then let the dogs come.
Of course, we could say that the common sense understanding would be that people don't post "No Dogs" signs on their own land. BTW... ever notice that "NO Trespassing" sign up in the tree right at the parking area in Franklin? That is pretty much a blanket statement of "NO people who don't live here, and NO DOGS that ain't owned by the landowner." We are allowed there in spite of that sign because we don't annoy the landowners, something a strange dog chasing their livestock or game or crapping in their yard WILL do. Seems like common sense to me....
>>>Obviously you won't see a dog where it is too dangerous/difficult for one to be taken.
Bullpuckey. I've seen and read about dogs in some of the stupidest, most contrived situations possible, and encountered the little yappers in places I had a hard time reaching myself.
>>>They also generally are not as bad as you wish to make them.
Yes.. of course, I see now. Obviously, I have a deep and burning need to hate dogs and their owners. That must be why I've owned several, and trained so many others for families with children.
Obviously, I have never-
-almost been forced off the top of Paradise Forks by a pack of unleashed dogs in the middle of a fight.
-found my pack dragged halfway down the trail, with all my food and gear scattered around it by someone else's pet.
-had to deal with the erosion/impact of dogs digging huge pits at the base of walls on a hot summer/autumn day.
-stepped in dog crap on the trail or right at the base of a freaking climb.
-heard the perfect stillness of a morning in the Wind Rivers shattered by the barking of someone's dog over a mile away. Or found said dog's feces floating in the Lonesome Lake when I went for water.
Must not have found numerous dogs dying of gunshot, poison, or gangrene after being caught in a rusty leghold trap, either.
And that kid who needed most of her throat stitched shut because someone's "loveable" pooch damned near decapitated her must have been all in my head.
Yes, I understand now... it was all just a figment of my demented imagination.
>>>They should be on a leash and most of the time they are...
No, Adam, most of the time THEY ARE NOT. Strange how folks with hundreds of dollars worth of climbing gear can't seem to afford twenty feet of webbing for a leash.
>>>now you can do your part to be TOLLERANT
I've been tolerant for years, but the problem just gets worse and worse. I'm over "tolerant" when it comes to dogs.
>>>giving the dog some space when you walk by if you don't want to deal with it.
I didn't bring the dog... why should I have to deal with it? If the dog threatens to bite me or growls at me, obviously it is not comfortable, not socialized. Why then would you bring such an animal to one of the most socially-intense settings around?
>>>...the dog people have same rights that you do.
And I never said that they didn't. What I AM saying, and what has been said all along this thread and in so many other debates on this topic, is that dog owners have more RESPONSIBILITIES than I do, since they elected to bring a pet into a survival situation.
(Don't think climbing is a survival situation? Then tell your belayer not to worry about having either hand on the rope at any time during your climb.)
[ This Message was edited by: roninthorne on 2003-01-31 07:11 ]
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leaverbiner
Jan 23, 2003, 4:21 PM
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WOW! This thread has exploded . . . I don't have any intention of revisiting the issues that have been beaten into the ground, and, as much as I hate to admit it there's a lot to be learned from the posts of Ronin and others. If nothing else, their experiences are to be learned from, and should be taken notice of by anyone that intends to bring their dog to a crag. Not only what they have seen dogs do, but also learn that not everyone loves your pooch. For many this is a tough lesson to learn, but one that needs to be firmly entrenched in the back of your mind everytime you walk down the trail.
I appreciate the efforts that were made to "defend" my earlier post. Unnecessary, but thoughtful nonetheless.
If i ever see any of you at the crags, you'll probably see a 90lb black lab by my side (or if it's at summersville, over me shoulder on the way down the ladder) . . . you'll also see a dog that goes for a swim, lies down in the shade, is leashed, is too shy to even think of crapping on a trail, and other than a welcome back to mother earth greeting, won't be making any noise. Hopefully it'll give you understanding why I feel so comfortable bringing the pooch to the crag whenever possible.
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redpoint73
Jan 23, 2003, 4:22 PM
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If dogs are leashed securely, and are well behaved (not too loud), I have no problem with them. Just be responsible. The only time I have had trouble with other climber's dogs is when the owners just let them run around. You really have no control over it when you are climbing or belaying. Verbal commands may not work. They will go into other people's packs and eat their food, or even gnaw on ropes and slings (BAD doggy!!!). Or when the dogs bark/beg incessantly. It will certainly dusturb others.
Many parks will let you have your dog unleashed. But check the rules at the entrance/visitors center. If you are in a park with certain wildlife, you will need to leash it (many wild animals get distressed from dogs).
You should leash anyway. Even if your dog is very well behaved, it gives you more control over where the animal goes. I was climbing once at a cliff that had a pretty steep slope, with LOTS of loose rocks, cobbles, boulders at the base. A group came hiking up with a dog. I accidentally knocked a rock down the slope (unavoidable and was happening to everyone occassionally). I yelled "rock" and the rock JUST missed the dog. I said sorry, but the lady just gave me a dirty look. It was not a good cliff to have pets.
So just stay in control of you dog, and be careful where you take it, and all will be cool.
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sierramike
Jan 23, 2003, 4:37 PM
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Leah,
You know your dog better than anyone else. I understand that you don't want to offend anyone at the crag, yet you want your friend to join you during your road tripping adventure. So, if you believe your dog will behave, then take her. If she is social toward other dogs and people, then bring her along. I also own a 90-lb Newfoundland that I take to EVERY backcountry area and local crag that I go to (sorry Ronin ole boy). You see, I know my dog. These doomsayers are letting a few bad days skew their view. Not every dog is mean, aggressive, or rifles through someone's pack. If my dog did these things, I would not only NOT take him anywhere, I wouldn't own him. Period. Have fun on your trip with your friend.
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greyghost
Jan 23, 2003, 9:58 PM
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Ronin,
Good work. You showed us. I feel sorry for anyone that actually read of all of that. I feel sorry for you for have written it. It just started like any other Ronin Rant, just a bunch of unorginal filler. To bad you completely ignored our pms. Whats up with that? All I want to know is what FA you had on the Satellite boulder? Let me in on the Legend of the Five Ninja's.......
Oh and since you are so concerned about local issues I expect you will be at the Out Reach Comp. See you there.
matt
don't stop the scream
[ This Message was edited by: greyghost on 2003-01-23 14:05 ]
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greyghost
Jan 23, 2003, 10:10 PM
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All of this from someone who demands respect from the climbing community and gets none. Everything you say is just a joke to be passed around Mike, get over it. Take a step out of the past into the present.
matt
don't stop the scream
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powers
Jan 23, 2003, 10:25 PM
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I have taken my dog which is leashed, climbing with me all over the country. There are not bad dogs just irrsponsible dog owners.i have seen some climbers kids which are worse to be around than my dog.
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thrillseeker05
Jan 23, 2003, 10:52 PM
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Bring your dog. Mine goes everywhere with me. just make sure you take responsibility for EVERYTHING.
Your dog has as much right to the great outdoors (more in my opinion) as anyone else. But there are rules to follow just like a kid. You can’t just leave him.
Just like you can’t just leave your baby on the ground as you go on to do 11 pitches. You must leash your dog. Not only for others protection but for the protection of your dog. You MUST have plenty of water. And you need to pick short climbs. The best scenario is to have more then two people. 3 is perfect since while you are climbing and your belayer is busy the third person gets to play with the pooch and basically baby sit. Then take turns.
Don’t forget lots of food too but water is most important. Also NEVER lock them in your car especially in the summer. You WILL go to jail for that.
Lastly, don’t listen to the anti-dog people. They will NEVER for any reason understand your love for you pet. Nor will they understand how animals have the rights to the outdoors also. All they will care about is their own personal comfort.
But be ready to take responsibility.
Peace
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chetimo
Jan 24, 2003, 1:11 AM
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i had a rott growing up and into HS when i started climbing. greatest dog i have ever had, sweet too. our 10lb cat chased him around the house and he ran with his little stub between his legs, which makes sence because he was only around 120lbs, twelve times the cats size, haha. i can understand the leash laws and everything which keeps the dog from being unruley. as far as the dog being a nuceince, thats up to the owners disretion, and desire to clean up after. my experience with my rott was a big black bear of a dog sitting at the bottom whinning while i climbed away bc he couldnt figure out a way to follow. people used to love him at the crag i went to and he was never a problem. Its your dog, use your descretion. If it was me, its a no brainer, dog would already be in the back seat ready to go.
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