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galt
Mar 9, 2003, 10:04 PM
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Does anyone back up a figure 8 with an overhand knot? I saw someone do this the other day and it looked very safe at first, but after I thought about it I didn't know. Would the overhand knot take the energy from the fall? Would that hurt the rope? Would the 8 then be pointless? Any imput would be appreciated.
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climberpunk
Mar 9, 2003, 10:16 PM
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ive always backed up my 8 with an fishermans knot, it just keeps the tail out of the way and from working loose. Its not really nessicary if ur knot is dressed right, but i do it anyways.
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sunsation
Mar 9, 2003, 10:18 PM
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The overhand knot is a finishing knot. It should not take any energy from the fall what-so-ever. If it does, you have not tied your 8 properly. The overhand knot just gets the excess rope (tail) out of your way. The Figure 8 knot is NOT POINTLESS!!!! Many people consider the 8 family of knots to be the safest out there. Irrespective, they are very versatile, extremely strong, easy to tie and easy to recognize and check.
If you have any doubt that you are tying your 8 properly, please have someone experienced double check it for you. And show you the right way, if need be.
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vram1974
Mar 9, 2003, 10:18 PM
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Are you referring to the double fisherman's keeper knot? Most climbers put that on to get rid of excess rope and keep the knot from loosening up. It doesn't have any fall factor issues.
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moeman
Mar 9, 2003, 10:26 PM
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The 8 is one of the strongest knots out there. It is always stronger to have a gradual curving bemd in the rope, as opposed to a sharp kink. The bend of the 8 is gradual, so it is strong.
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galt
Mar 10, 2003, 2:07 AM
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Guess I didn't make this clear... I'm not referring to a double fisherman's knot (I ALWAYS back up an 8 with a double fisherman's) I'm referring to an OVERHAND knot. http://members.aol.com/goodheavens/overhand.html for an example of this knot. Imagine an 8 is tied and this (an OVERHAND knot) is used to back it up. Hope this clarifies things.
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drkodos
Mar 10, 2003, 2:16 AM
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It's all good. 8)
The whole point is to just clear up the excess rope in the "tail" after tying an eight. It's not even a back up. A properly tied Eight is not coming untied.
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nickb
Mar 10, 2003, 2:31 AM
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I usually use a figure eight tie in with an extrta pass. This is a figure eight with the tail tucked back through the knot. I like it because you don't have the tail sticking out the front and it adds one more turn to keep it all togeather.http://www.climerware.com/f8x.shtml A double bowline with a yosemite finish is a good sport climbing knot though
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w6jxm
Mar 10, 2003, 3:45 AM
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When I have to tie an 8 in a gym or something, I always pass the tail back through the knot. Makes it a little less hard to undo. (I normally do a bowline because it is easier to tie and untie)
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michaelmcguinn
Jan 9, 2006, 2:54 AM
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PICTURES!!!!!!!!!
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mikewong
Jan 9, 2006, 3:11 AM
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Do you mean tying both a 1) figure of 8 follow through knot and an 2) overhand follow through knot together?
If you do, it sounds like a lot of work. I don't know who would do something like that. It wouldn't hurt anything but the overhand follow through knot will be hard to undo if weighted (that's why we use figure of 8's).
I hope that answered your question.
Mike
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vegastradguy
Jan 9, 2006, 3:30 AM
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or do you mean an overhand tied around the rope in place of a double-fishermans?
at any rate, i see folks with those big-ol' fishermans backups with their knots about a foot long and i just smile, knowing one day you're gonna clip your knot to your pro....
fig-8 with yosemite finish all the way- easier to untie, tail out of the way, and secure.
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ajkclay
Jan 9, 2006, 6:42 AM
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In reply to: at any rate, i see folks with those big-ol' fishermans backups with their knots about a foot long and i just smile, knowing one day you're gonna clip your knot to your pro.... fig-8 with yosemite finish all the way- easier to untie, tail out of the way, and secure.
yep, yosemite rethread's the only way to go... and yeah, what's up with those big and long dopey looking backup knots going a foot up the rope?
Adam
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overlord
Jan 9, 2006, 10:09 AM
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i tie a keeper know if the tail is too long. its either a half know or a fishermans, depending on the length of the tail.
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erclimb
Jan 9, 2006, 12:12 PM
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an overhand won't do much as a back-up; the double fisherman's is an excellent (though some say unnecessary) way to secure the figure 8...the df is actually a slip knot and should be tied right on top of the 8 (turn over both knots and you should see four nice coils)...if your 8 begins to loosen, the df will help keep the tail from pulling through...you need 6-8 inches of tail to tie a good df; any more and you should throw in an extra wrap (i.e. triple fisherman's) or retie the 8...any less and i just pull the tail around and back into the 8 (i.e. yosemite follow through)
conventional wisdom says the 8 "does not fail" but the df takes 5 seconds to tie and provides a little more security
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rockguide
Jan 9, 2006, 1:49 PM
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The figure eight is fine without a double fisherman, or overhand, or any backup. It is a stable knot, unlike the bowline which is an unstable knot and requires a back up. Two fists of extra rope coming out of the knot is fine, and the backthread is a great way to keep that out of the way.
vegastradguy wrote:
In reply to: at any rate, i see folks with those big-ol' fishermans backups with their knots about a foot long and i just smile, knowing one day you're gonna clip your knot to your pro....
yup - seen it. It is also harder to clip, get close to draws, clean pro while seconding with a yard of gack due to a big loop on the harness side of the eight and a macrame project on the other.
You will tie thousands of figure eights - get good at it.
As for having extra rope to get out of the way - learn to tie the knot so there is not extra rope to deal with. I know how much rope below the starter knot I need to complete the eight with the correct amount of extra rope. I have measured it along my arm, and every time I go climbing, I bring my arm with me.
Brian
(edited one time to correct issues with pasting quotes)
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pendereki
Jan 9, 2006, 2:35 PM
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I also measure with my arm, but slightly longer or shorter each time so that I am not tying into the exact same spot each time. I then use an overhand or double or triple or quadruple and/or Yosemite to deal with the extra.
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vegastradguy
Jan 9, 2006, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: I have measured it along my arm, and every time I go climbing, I bring my arm with me.
me too- of course, i climb with many different rope diameters, which has resulted in three different arm lengths for tie-ins - one for double lines, one for skinny singles, and one for fat singles. one time i accidentally used the fat single measurement for a double rope and ended up with like two feet of tail.... :lol:
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iclime
Jan 9, 2006, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: The figure eight is fine without a double fisherman, or overhand, or any backup. It is a stable knot, unlike the bowline which is an unstable knot and requires a back up. Two fists of extra rope coming out of the knot is fine, and the backthread is a great way to keep that out of the way.
In reply to: You will tie thousands of figure eights - get good at it. As for having extra rope to get out of the way - learn to tie the knot so there is not extra rope to deal with. I know how much rope below the starter knot I need to complete the eight with the correct amount of extra rope.
Has anybody ever had their figure-eight tie-in knot slip? Ever? I checked it once (I was in a gym with a special lead fall practice area, and I taped a band around the tail to compare before and after), and while the knot tightened, the tail slipped millimeters.
M
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csgambill
Jan 9, 2006, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: or do you mean an overhand tied around the rope in place of a double-fishermans? at any rate, i see folks with those big-ol' fishermans backups with their knots about a foot long and i just smile, knowing one day you're gonna clip your knot to your pro.... fig-8 with yosemite finish all the way- easier to untie, tail out of the way, and secure.
I prefer the double bowline. It's easier to tie incorrectly than the figure 8, but so much easier to untie than the figure 8 after it's been weighted.
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rocknap
Jan 9, 2006, 8:00 PM
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I used to use the rethread until someone pointed out that if for some reason the rethreaded tail were to "fall out" (un-rethread) you would end up with a loose figure eight (due to the now vacated space inside the knot that had been occupied by the rethreaded tail). I can't really imagine how this could happen, but why chance it?
Now I only use an overhand, fishermans, or double fishermans for backup (depending on length of tail).
As a side point, it still amazes me how many people incorrectly tie their eights twisted. I see people with years of experience who have tied it with a twist thousands of times and never saw the problem. The knot should look the same and be nice and compact on both sides (turn it over and look for a twist).
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iclime
Jan 9, 2006, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: Now I only use an overhand, fishermans, or double fishermans for backup (depending on length of tail).
Overhand Knot
Fisherman's Bend
Double Fisherman's Bend
M
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cosmiccragsman
Jan 9, 2006, 9:25 PM
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Galt;
The overhand knot is at the tail end of the figure 8 knot. It bears no weight at all. It's just used to keep the excess rope at the end of the tail out of the way.
If there is not much tail, use a overhand knot. If there is more, use
a half a grapevine knot. ( 1/2 dbl fishermans knot)
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jred
Jan 9, 2006, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: an overhand won't do much as a back-up; the double fisherman's is an excellent (though some say unnecessary) way to secure the figure 8...the df is actually a slip knot and should be tied right on top of the 8 (turn over both knots and you should see four nice coils)...if your 8 begins to loosen, the df will help keep the tail from pulling through...you need 6-8 inches of tail to tie a good df; any more and you should throw in an extra wrap (i.e. triple fisherman's) or retie the 8...any less and i just pull the tail around and back into the 8 (i.e. yosemite follow through) conventional wisdom says the 8 "does not fail" but the df takes 5 seconds to tie and provides a little more security |
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