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jen_c
Mar 10, 2003, 4:40 PM
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And I can tell you that Michael has put in more than his share of time for the climbing community too - especially here in the SouthEast. I also know that he would never treat anyone out at the crags the way that he was treated at the event in question.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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murf
Mar 10, 2003, 4:46 PM
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jen_c - Who said anything about what mike has or hasn't done? I haven't commented on Mike at all, except waiting for WOTWS for 1.5 hours.
See my guidebooks recommendations ( which is what this thread is supposed to be about ) above.
Murf
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jen_c
Mar 10, 2003, 4:50 PM
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Well, you pointed out all that Randy does (Access Fund, etc) - my point is that Michael is just involved.
And he has also done a lot for putting up (and documenting) routes here in the SE so if you ever climb here, you should be thanking him too.
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pbjosh
Mar 10, 2003, 5:14 PM
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For someone who's not already familiar with Joshua Tree the Vogel bible is the better guide I think - the photos are VERY helpful in identifying various crags and routes and the more detailed topos of more obscure routes won't be important to you for your first dozen visits or more to jtree. The Bartlett guides contain more routes and better topos but less useful navigational info / maps (in my opinion) and are better when you already know your way around all the major formations and routes to use as landmarks.
That having been said I use the Bartlett guides to research routes and dream/conspire/plan/etc but I carry the Vogel guide around for the pictures.
josh
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michael crowder
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Mar 10, 2003, 5:31 PM
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folks,
the reason i brought this up is that i want an answer to why someone had to so rude. i have wanted to know for 11 years. i was really downplaying how bad that this situation degenerated because it was actually unbelieveable. i can not imagine how someone could treat other climbers like that. he even told one of my sponsors that i was a jerk and started the entire deal so i feel i have the right to drag it up in public. yes i can be an @sshole myself but i never push climbers around at the crags. if i run into a visiting climber at one of my home crags i usually give them the nickle tour so they don't spend most of their time wandering around trying to figure out the guide book. what i really like here are the flames i am getting from folks that weren't there, if ya'll had been treated the same you would still be looking for an explanation too. even years later. don't talk about what you no nothing about. my recomendation was based on more than just my experiences, i have other references.
as to what folks have done for climbing that really doesn't have anything to do with this situation. i could spew a list of what i have done for access over the years but it has absolutely no bearing on this subject. i have never said that randy has not done some good for climbing, i just want to know w.t.f. happened on one particular day. if he had just been a little rude it would be one thing but this situation got so completely out of hand that i still think about it everytime someone mentions southern california or joshua tree. a simple explanation or aplogy would have satisfied me and this issue would be dead. instead someone is trying to be untruthful by downplaying it and denying culpability. being rude to me is one thing but when i ask why don't tell me i am exaggerating or being untruthful. maybe i didn't handle my end as peacefully as i could have but nobody runs over me just because they couldn't get out of bed a little earlier. do you folks make it a point to break in front of the que at popular climbing areas? if you think i am pitching a fit here you just don't know. you should see what happens when some punk pushes past me in a lift line. i will never be a sheep.
michael
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murf
Mar 10, 2003, 6:11 PM
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Hey Mike,
You may not be a sheep, but let me tell you how I feel. If someone tried to pass me on a climb, and was below me leading, I would never try and knock them off the climb. If I felt so inclined I would meet them on the ground and take care of it there.
Right now, looking in on your SCC board, I have a fairly poor impression of you. However, you come on out here, with or without your climbing board worshipers, and we'll go do WOTWS. We'll hang out and see how much fun we can have. If you're a good guy, I'll bet we'll have fun, which is my measure of how good a day climbing I've had ( that or how much I suffered, but we're talking craggin here ). Since I'm not a sheep, I form my own opinions about people.
That being said, go clear it up with Randy, email, call him, whatever. When its done, good or bad, bury it. We don't need to know about it, do we? Is it about us or you two?
Murf
( P.S. Removed under edit - better judgement prevails in time. )
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kristofor
Mar 10, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Hey doods, you don't need either guidebook. I've made my own! Click for ultra huge size!
http://homepage.mac.com/...ing/joshkg_small.jpg
As any responsible guidebook writer would, I'm looking for inclusions of any information from outside sources. Please let me know if I left anything out.
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hardmanknott
Mar 10, 2003, 6:38 PM
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Since I don't know Randy Vogel or the "Character-Assassin",
I won't comment on something that happened last century.
I will suggest that someone might have a little too much
time on their hands...
As many of you may or may not know, writing climbing guidebooks
is an extremely poor money-making venture, to say the least.
Falcon Press in particular pays very little in the way of royalties.
Were talking maybe a couple dollars for a $30.00 book.
When the time and effort to write a guidebook is factored in,
it is essentially becomes an act of charity.
An author of a popular ice-climbing guide estimates his net
from each copy sold (Falcon) amounts to roughly 15 cents.
So Randy, thanks for the titanic amount of work you
obviously put into your 1992 book -- and the '97 Select Guide.
If it's true that there's finally going to be an update of the big book,
I will be buying it as soon as it becomes available.
(I only have the select guide)
If we ever meet, the beer's on me!
Hardman Knott
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jhwnewengland
Mar 10, 2003, 6:45 PM
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All those in favor of locking this thread, say I. The guidebook discussion was over two pages ago.
I.
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montgomerywick
Mar 10, 2003, 6:58 PM
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you did comment hardnut when instead of saying Michael Crowder you used the term character assassin... :?
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hardmanknott
Mar 10, 2003, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: you did comment hardnut when instead of saying Michael Crowder you used the term character assassin... :?
I suppose you know all about hard nuts...
Are you his butt-boy?
Hardman Knott
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montgomerywick
Mar 10, 2003, 7:20 PM
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wow, you're good! you truly are above it all like your "no comment" comment...typical web bashing you see here. :roll:
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hardmanknott
Mar 10, 2003, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: wow, you're good! you truly are above it all like your "no comment" comment...typical web bashing you see here. :roll:
Hey retard,
I said I wouldn't comment on the incident between those
two -- which happened last century. Your reading comprehension
is as bad as your attempt to pick a fight with me is lame.
Dish it out but can't take it?
Hardman Knott
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montgomerywick
Mar 10, 2003, 7:40 PM
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yo stupid, using a perjorative term in lieu of a name is making a comment.
For example, saying "I won't comment on Randy Vogel or that Dumb-Ass Knutt" is a comment, see?
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montgomerywick
Mar 10, 2003, 7:42 PM
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yo stupid, using a perjorative term in lieu of a name is making a comment.
For example, saying "I won't comment on Randy Vogel or that Dumb-Ass Knutt" is a comment, see?
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kirsten_k
Mar 10, 2003, 7:48 PM
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mw a.k.a. Mr. Fontenot, what a fine representative you are for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition. Anyone else wanting to experience true Southern hospitality can check it out at www.seclimbers.org. mw is even on the board.
btw, they've changed viewing permissions on the Flame Board so you have to register if you'd like to see Crowder's previous comments re: Vogel. Hardman Knott, I guess they actually can't take it.
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michael crowder
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Mar 11, 2003, 12:27 AM
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folks,
i didn't intend on starting any bickering among the peanut gallery. some of ya'll are jumping on me for bringing something up that happened years ago but i want to know. if there had been some politeness shown on the day in question then this thread would have never gone this far. i just wanted to know why so much direspect was exhibited.
murf,
i know this is hard to believe from my posts here but i am one of the easiest guys to get along with in climbing, period. the day in question was the only time i have had serious discord with another climber. i have even managed to stay on speaking terms with climbers that have distinct personality differences from myself. the only other time i was approached by an irate climber we ended up shaking hands before we walked away. i may have a differing opinion sometimes but i have never started a hollering match over it. i do state my beliefs pretty emphatically. i am fairly sure that if you met me you would figure out pretty quickly that it must take something really drastic to upset me this much and that i would bring up this much later. i thought i might get an answer if i brought up the issue. take most of the bickering you read on our board with a grain of salt.
kirsten,
i doubt our message board has been locked to non registered members. please try again. i promise you that there is no conspiracy. also if you are going to read the posts on our board you need to remember that a lot of things said there are very tounge in cheek. some of the biggest arguments and disagrements that happen are actually among friends and we joke about it when we climb together on the weekends. the board is just a diversion where we poke fun at each other. also we can take any dishing folks can muster. as to commenting about mr. fontenot's image as a s.c.c. rep you need to tread lightly. he has done more work on access than most will ever do. how many endangered climbing areas has your regional climbing club purchased?
hardman,
this was not meant as "character assasination" this subject would have never been brought up if someone had shown a little character on the crags. can't ya'll see that. without the original action there would be no reaction. i am being jumped on for getting jumped on. it seems goofey. from this point on i may not respond to anyone in this thread unless it is to gain more understanding of the incident.
michael
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lancebrock
Mar 11, 2003, 3:33 PM
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i am one of the administrators for the scc bbs and the flame board priviledges were changed, but not due to this discussion. we were discussing whether we wanted land owners seeing some of the threads and it was decided we did not.
kristen, ease up on the scc, please. if you live in atlanta, chances are anywhere you have climbed was kept open by us. we are the largest and most active regional climbing organization in the country. last year, we aquired 2 climbing areas, had around 20 events and trail days and raised tens of thousands of dollars.
here is the official disclaimer: the opinions posted by members or officers of the scc are not necessarily those of the scc and should be taken with a grain of salt.
thanks,
lance brock
president, scc
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jen_c
Mar 11, 2003, 4:36 PM
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Michael & Lance....well said.
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murf
Mar 11, 2003, 4:45 PM
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Mike,
At the risk of sounding like a hippy, it's never good when a day of climbing creates bad energy which way outlasts the day itself. I'm sure that we could have a great day of climbing, although I'd probably be outclassed.
Cheers,
Murf
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uncle_big_green
Mar 12, 2003, 3:46 AM
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Wow. First, let me say that I am sure that Vogel did a nice job on the book (now you all know that something is coming). However, MC is sharing his experience with us and that is important. If someone is acting or has acted in a certain way, then I may not want to support them. Actions have consequences. I have seen well-known climbers throw their own names around for their own end. Knowing MC, I don't doubt his account. Before anyone flames me for having pissed-off many people in the past, I have at least stood by my actions or apologized for them. MC may be opinionated and abrasive, but he ain't a liar.
Here is example of proper climbing etiquette at the crags. Last week at IC, I was going to rope solo a popular climb (on a weekday). Someone else wasn't too far behind me and saw me at the base of the climb. I asked him if he wanted to do the climb and if he had done it before. Actually, his friend (a minute behind him on the approach) had not done it and wanted to. Since I had ALREADY done the climb and was going to rope solo it, I let the other party go. I definately would have got up the route on rope solo in less time than the other guy did with a belayer. However, there were other climbs for me to do and as I mentioned, I had already done the climb and he did not. The world could have ended in a matter of minutes, so who was I to stand in the way and not accomodate the guy doing a new route and hinder his experience? I did another climb in the meantime and when I was done, I walked back to that original climb. They let me take a ride on their TR and I waited about 40 seconds before I went.
Sorry for the long story - I've had a few beers. The moral is that is the way you treat a visiting climber. It still worked out for me as a bonus.
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murf
Mar 12, 2003, 4:45 PM
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UBG,
Sorry, we've already put away all the toys and gone home.
Murf
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kronik
Mar 13, 2003, 2:50 PM
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I've always been partial to the Vogel guide. I have enough JTree guides, I don't really need 5 more.
and, what is with guys named murf??
I know a guy named murf, he used to roller blade into the climbing gym wearing some purple lycra shorts with his long flowing hair in a pony tail down to his butt. That guy was a scene!
:twisted:
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murf
Mar 13, 2003, 3:13 PM
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Kronik,
Wow - sounds like that dude left a big impression on you, did you ever make a move?
Too bad you don't need anymore guides, I hear there's a new bouldering guide to Josh on the way. But the Vogel guide has bouldering too.
Murf
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