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buckyllama
Mar 14, 2003, 7:06 PM
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Has anyone tried out Eric Horst's H.I.T. Training program? Comments?
I'm specifically looking to improve grip and finger strength as fast as possible without injury. I had to take over 6 months off of climbing recently to recover from a tendon injury and in that time my finger strength (which was always a weak point for me) has pretty much totally vanished.
The argument Horst uses seem sound to me from a training perspective, I'm just interested in the reactions of people who have tried this.
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overlord
Mar 28, 2003, 10:48 AM
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post a lint to the program or describe it, then i will be able to tell you my opinion on it.
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buckyllama
Mar 28, 2003, 3:16 PM
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http://www.trainingforclimbing.com/html/hit.shtml
Horst, for those who have not heard of him, wrote "How to climb 5.12" and his new book "Training for climbing" came out recently. He's got both the guns and the experience to back up his assertions.
The theory behind the training is that you train specific grips to failure on repetative holds. You climb up and down on the crimps, 2 finger pockets, open-hand, and pinches to failure for each hold type. Once you can do more than 12 moves per hand (24 total) you start adding weights to your body. Oh yeah this is done on an overhanging wall 45-55 deg.
The training theory is sound in that you are isolating a specific muscle group and training it to failure. And increasing resistance by adding weight. it's standard weight training, and weightlifters (not bodybuilders mind you) may not be great climbers but they do know a thing or two about getting strong.
Really I'm just looking for some feedback from experience.
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dekenstructor1
Mar 28, 2003, 3:18 PM
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Goo :!: :!:
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reborne
Mar 28, 2003, 3:39 PM
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i would imagine that if you dont know what it is then you havnt tried it and the post doesnt apply to you ....
ive tried it not with his specific holds just the ones they have on the trianing wall at my gym and i would agree that repeating a move till failure with a consistent hold builds strength faster than striaght bouldering but its boring as hell and you have to waste your whole day on it its really not that effective to try to climb then try a hit workout and if you do it the other way around and can still climb you didnt do it right
good luck and have fun although i wouldnt plan on having fun
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sid_rock
Mar 28, 2003, 3:58 PM
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In reply to: The training theory is sound in that you are isolating a specific muscle group and training it to failure. And increasing resistance by adding weight. it's standard weight training, and weightlifters (not bodybuilders mind you) may not be great climbers but they do know a thing or two about getting strong. Really I'm just looking for some feedback from experience.
The technique you describe -- isolating a muscle group and training it to failure, then increasing resistance and repeating the process -- will work for muscles. All of us know that. The question is whether the tendons that give us grip strength will respond in the same way. My understanding is that connective tissue must be trained much more gently over a much longer period of time, vis-a-vis a muscle group, because they simply don't respond the same way. They don't have the same kind of blood flow or regenerative qualities and take much longer than muscles to adapt to stress. Also, damage to tendons, pulleys, and ligaments is more serious and takes longer to heal.
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tim
Mar 28, 2003, 4:22 PM
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Note to the people who have responded with "I have no idea whatsoever, but I'm going to spout off anyways":
Read the friggin' book (or the documentation on his site). Horst climbs 5.13 and is something of a guru as far as training and injury prevention goes. This regimen is for climbers who are onsighting 5.11 and up trad, 5.12 and up sport, or V10 and up bouldering. So if you are not in the target audience for that sort of improvement, please consider respecting the poster's wishes to hear from people WITH EXPERIENCE DOING HIT TRAINING. He was explicit.
(I never got past mid-5.11 bolted leads even indoors, so for me, footwork and chopping my bodyfat to sub-10% are more pressing goals. I'm not going to chime in with some throwaway generalization, but I would be interested in any responses from people who've tried this system.)
It would be helpful if the people chiming in with their opinions would state whether they are experienced with system training, HIT training, etc.; what their level of ability is/was at the time; and whether it helped them. The question that was posed is whether HIT training worked for people who tried it, and it would also be helpful to know in what situations they were.
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boardcrazzy
Mar 28, 2003, 4:57 PM
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I think I can chime in with my experience here. I haven't done the HIT workout itself, but I've taken the failure principle and started putting it to use. After a night of climbing I head on over to the campus board and do three sets of two exercises (6 sets total to failure). I do three hangs on the smallest campus rung I can hold on to for about 10 to 15 seconds, making sure I'm holding on till I fall off from finger strength failure. After three hangs, I go to the next biggest campus rungs and do three sets of going up the rungs. After I get to the top I come down till I fail. I haven't been doing it for long. Maybe once a week for the last 3 or 4 weeks, but my finger strength has improved siginificantly.
I don't do the HIT workout specifically becuase I am relatively low on the ratings scale and pulling the two finger pairs tends to put too much strain on my tendons. Although I've been climbing on and off for 8 years, this round of serious training started in October of O2. I climb solid 10's and am comfortable working out the 11's in the gym. I tend to tick off the verticle ones pretty quick, and am pretty close to ticking some overhanging ones.
I believe by doing this workout to failure after a night of climbing, I'm getting the biggest bang for my buck for my level of climbing. I can work technique all night and spend only ten minutes at the end to get in some strength training and get results.
Hope this is the sort of thing you're looking for.
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tgang
Mar 28, 2003, 5:03 PM
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I have been doing a sort of modified HIT training program for a few years. I find the HIT strips to be a nice addition to a home wall, but you could do the same regime with the pusher tiles as well. The dislike about the HIT strips are that when you buy them they are super abrasive. I had to sand the holds down for about a day before my fingers didn't kill after using them. I also find them kind of limiting in grip positions you can actually use, but that can be overcome by buying holds from other companies (I enjoy stoneageclimbing) I also shortened down his rest to about 2 minutes instead of three. So to make it short I think the HIT strips would work for what you are looking for as long as you increased your wieght slowly. A fast program to increase tendon strengh will lead to nothing but injury. Feel free to email me with any specific questions.
cheers
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hroldan
Mar 28, 2003, 5:12 PM
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Hey guys, here's what i think:
Sounds interesting (H.I.T) and very logic, and it seems to cover a lot of aspects of trainning. (isolating, etc.)
The only thing is that I think the table is quite ambiguos because in bouldering you can (and at the gym was very often) to train for an specific grip position, this table kinda blames it for lack of this. At the gym we use to boulder not only close to the floor, we use to boulder up and down, and across because sometimes it does not help to build rich variety of movements to climb up and you get very good going side to side, but my goal was going up.
Bouldering, every problem was diferent, I mean that boulder just for boulder and build endurance will not build grip strenght AS IF you were training in specific bouldering problems and with variety, working diferent angles and grip positions.
I like it. The weight thing worked well for me. And was very amaze by the results.
It combines a lot of useful things that i'm sure a lot of people here have tried before and see good results. This system combines everything. BUT I think is kinda stressful. I climbed with 7 pounds. Sounds little but try the 10 o 20 the website says and tell me about it...
Something that has worked for me a lot is CONTACT TIME. When climbing outdoors you get tired quickly but you improve a lot. A lot can be said but to get to the point. Climb, boulder at the gym but try to do it slowly and quietly, keep on each hold for several seconds.
I usually try to build a route on my wall and do it several times, then, I do it again but simulating clipping every two movements and very slowly to force me to stay on a hold for X time.
Try variety to get a richer grip strength.
But back to the point, it seems complete but kinda painful.
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wyomingclimber
Mar 28, 2003, 5:32 PM
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I think jumping into weighted system board training after a 6 month layoff might be a kind of ill-conceived plan. As some prior posters mentioned, connective tissue tends to take a while to develop. Unfortunately, I know this from experience. I recently came back to climbing after a 3 year layoff and after 4 months back on the rock I decided (stupidly) that I needed a project to inspire me. I picked out a crimpy .13b, spent a few weeks working out the sequence, and then blew a finger on my redpoint attempt.
The theory behind HIT training is fairly simple and has been around for many years before Horst wrote about it: Instead of varying the size of the holds on a system board, vary the weight of the climber. This allows us to train with a given level of intensity on holds that aren't prone to creating injury.
I've tried it in the past and it seems to work well, though I'm not sure that varying the angle of your system board wouldn't be more effective.
In your case, it might make more sense to just lap on easy routes and then increase the difficulty slowly. This worked really well (too well?) for me.
Good luck
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dcramer
Mar 28, 2003, 6:48 PM
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From the early 70s until the early 90s I climbed all the time. I was never good enough to turn heads but could was able to pull off some trad .12 onsights and redpointed on hard .12 easy .13 sport routes. Then came kids! I gained about 50 lbs and virtually stopped climbing in the 90’s. Two years ago (winter before this one) I started getting back into climbing. I was very out of shape – still am in fact. After losing some weight I started HIT workouts on a semi regular basis along with a friend.
1. I bought the HIT strips used. It would be easy to make your own. I tried various angles and without a doubt the more "roof like" the better. Originally we had a 45 degree wall and after lowering the wall another 10 degrees we have noticed that the workouts are far more fingery and less painful. (less abrasvie) The two finger pair excercises definitely were improved by the angle change. Our rest period is 2 minutes.
2. We both tape and have noticed that the workouts have not induced any injuries despite some hard pulling.
3. Workouts are quick about 45 minutes. We often do them before work.
4. Results: We both feel that we have noticed improvement and both have not been injured. The workouts are much more fun than a hangboard. The improvements are limited to finger strength so a HIT regimen needs to be part of a well rounded program. I went from hanging on a .9 last year to flashing a couple of 12s on TR. Hopefully will do more leading this season.
I think given the time constraints of my life HIT workouts have been pretty effective.
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rockprodigy
Mar 28, 2003, 6:52 PM
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I read about HIT training about 5 years ago, when I first started training and was looking for a program. I decided not to use the HIT strips because I couldn't afford them, and I had nowhere to hang them anyway, but I have used his concepts.
I do similiar training on a hangboard, varying weight to achieve failure after about 10 seconds. I work 9 different grip positions in a session (about 40 minutes) and do 5 reps of 10 sec on each grip. I have rigged a pulley system to take weight off on certain holds, and I add weight on others.
I have been doing this for about 5 years and I've gone from redpointing 11b to 13a in that time.
However, I am very disciplined and motivated, most climbers are not .
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buckyllama
Apr 1, 2003, 2:31 PM
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Thanks to all for the replies. Lots of good info here.
It sounds like a system that would work well for me. I am very sensative to injury prevention and I am disciplined when it comes to training so hopefully neither will be an issue for me.
The other question I have is how often you do the HIT workout? And how you integrate it with the rest of your climbing and training to get a balanced program. I imagine 4x per week would get you strong but at the expense of being able to actually do any climbing.
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rockprodigy
Apr 2, 2003, 8:41 PM
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In reply to: I imagine 4x per week
Yikes! That's way too often. I do my hangboard workout twice a week at the most, (tuesday and Thursday) and climb on the weekend, but I've found I feel a lot stronger if I just do it once a week (wednesday) then climb on the weekend, as I get more rest. If I'm unable to climb due to weather, etc. I may do a hangboard routine on the weekend as well, but even in those situations, I don't think I've every done it more than twice in a week (possibly a Wednesday/Saturday/Wednesday--an 8 day span)...but rare.
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buckyllama
Apr 2, 2003, 8:49 PM
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I was being sarcastic with the 4x per week thing :wink:
1x per week sounds doable if combined with other training. I guess I'm just trying to figure out how to push myself to get the most benefit.
thanks for the reply!
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rockprodigy
Apr 2, 2003, 9:58 PM
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You got me!
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lars
Apr 3, 2003, 4:20 AM
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In reply to: adding weights drastically changes where the center of gravity is in the body, thuse when hit training you are learning to make movement adjustments and position yourself in ways that you will never need to do on an actual climb.
What about climing with a rack? It seems like the two experiences would be very similar. Of course, you have to be climbing some pretty steep trad routes.
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arizonabouldering
Apr 3, 2003, 4:21 AM
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The HIT training system definitely works. I have been doing it for a couple years now. It really doesn't matter if you use the HIT strips or another companys training holds. Just get a row of small crimps, 2 finger pockets, and pinches and you are set.
I started with no weight. You will move up in weight very quickly if you are new to the type of training.
I only do it one time per week. My forearms are usually sore for 2 solid days.
The best part is that you can chart your progress. You will know for a fact if your finger strength is increasing or not.
One thing that I have noticed is that if I don't do it for awhile I lose a little strength. (just like weight lifting)
I currenly use 40pds on the pinches, 80 pds on the 1st and middle combo finger pockets, 45 pds on the last 2 finger combo pockets. I use my own round dowels for the crimps because the crimp on the HIT strips is HUGE.
I am using 45pds on those.
I add 10 pds of weight when I hit around 22 moves on an exercise
If you get to the point of adding 80pds like I do, you will have to get creative with the weight. As you will see in my pictures below, do not hand a plate around your waist! I went to a metal shop and purchasd 25pd bags of lead shot. 2 of them easily fit in a fanny pack. I also wear a scuba belt with 30pds on it.
Weights are very expensive :(
I too found that I had to sand down the HIT strips. Way too rough. The HIT strips for me are a little to big on a 50 degree wall. I have talked to Eric and he is planning on offering a more advanced set.
If you want to see pictures you can check this out on my site.
http://www.arizonabouldering.com/gallery/hitstrips.htm
http://www.arizonabouldering.com/gallery/hitworkout1.htm
http://www.arizonabouldering.com/gallery/hitworkout2.htm
http://www.arizonabouldering.com/gallery/hitworkout4.htm
http://www.arizonabouldering.com/gallery/hitworkout4.htm
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terrainerist
Apr 3, 2003, 4:45 AM
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I've trained a little with weights... and it was interesting, but I think it's way more effective to just climb on steeper terrain and use smaller and less positive holds.
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1269topper
Apr 3, 2003, 6:50 AM
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I fooled around this winter a couple times trying to use this HIT method or at least the campusing techinque. It really worked well for me. The over all streighting in my shoulder helped and the down campusing gave me lots of control. I am planning to build my own dirt bag campus ladder off my deck as soon as i get the time.
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redpoint73
Apr 4, 2003, 10:41 PM
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I haven't tried it, but the HIT workout seems a bit intensive for someone coming off of an injury. Although I suppose you can isolate the HIT grips that are less likely to cause re-injury, and start very gradually.
Finger curls seem to work pretty well in building grip strength. I have had good results just climbing a lot at the gym on fingery (but not crimpy) routes on overhanging walls.
I would definitely use tape for a while. Also tape your other "primary" fingers on the same hand (usually either middle 2 fingers, or all fingers except thumb and pinky if you pull hard with your index finger). I say this because I came back from a pulley tendon injury, and ended up straining a pulley on the adjacent finger. Probably because I was 'favoring' the injured finger and pulling harder with the 'good' finger to compensate.
Good luck. You'll be strong again before you know it!
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