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braaaaaaaadley
Aug 11, 2003, 12:46 PM
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I've been sport climbing for a couple years now and have been leading for a little over a year now up to a 5.11. For some time now I have wanted to get into trad. I have climbed trad once before with a friends gear and liked it alot. My quesion for you all is what cams are good for a beginner. I have used bd camalots and metolius tcu's and liked them both. The only thing i dont like is the price. Are the cheaper cams (Rock Empire-Okuma) worth the buy or is buying them and using them asking for it? Which of the cheaper cams is more suited for a beginner climbing in the east (nrg etc.)? Am I better off buying the more expensive cams in the long run, and if so which ones?
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one900johnnyk
Aug 11, 2003, 1:12 PM
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if you like tcu's get dmm's 3cu's ... i like them a lot. and instead of camalots look into trango's flexcams... they're money. not rock bottom cheapest, but pretty friggin cheap. of course, everyone will tell you to buy passive gear first. that's good advice..
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braaaaaaaadley
Aug 11, 2003, 1:39 PM
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I already have some passive gear. I am interested in learning more about the okuma and the rock empire cams. I could buy almost twice as many of those than other cams.
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janiszewski11
Aug 11, 2003, 1:47 PM
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pagangear.com is currently having a sale where I just got 12 technical friends for $455 plus 12 free racking carabiners :)
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sharpie
Aug 11, 2003, 1:49 PM
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Do you mean Ocun (I've never heard of Okuma)?
If you're thinking of Ocun Metal Jacks, here's the RC.com review: http://www.rockclimbing.com/shopping/product.php?p=553
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braaaaaaaadley
Aug 11, 2003, 2:11 PM
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My bad... i was thinking ocun, but thought of the fly reel company okuma. Yea with that sale on pagangear which set would you buy? I am considering between the trango flexcams on mountain gear for a set of 8 = $250, 3cu's for 6 = 200 and the cheaper robots 8 for 200. Any other deals out there that i am not aware of? Thanks for all the response so far.
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e_wire
Aug 11, 2003, 2:15 PM
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I use Technical Friends from Wild Country. A bit cheaper the BD Camalots and they do a very good job.
Reviews are also available at:
http://www.climbing.com/equipment/cams212/
Good luck.
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killclimbz
Aug 11, 2003, 2:20 PM
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Spend the money on getting a set of BD camalots, metolius TCU's, etc. You're going to find that you are going to need more than one piece at just about every size. Supplement your more expensive pieces with the cheaper gear if you like. You can use those pieces on the easier placements. When you are pumped and really need to get a piece in, it's nice to have gear that you can eyeball and get placed the 1st try.
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reno
Aug 11, 2003, 2:46 PM
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I recently bought a Trango Flex Cam. I like it so much (good feel in my hand, extendable sling, and solid placement) that I bought another. I will probably buy more, as my checkbook allows.
Other than those two Trango Cams, I have a rack of WC Friends (Tech Friends with flexible stems,) and much prefer these over Camalots, Metolious TCU/FCUs, or others.) I've had one change to place a Rock Empire cam, so I can't speak on those.
My money goes to Trango or Wild Country.
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holmeslovesguinness
Aug 11, 2003, 2:46 PM
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I agree with killclimbz, for general trad climbing, start out with a core set of the good stuff - personally I would recommend picking up the #.75, 1, 2, and 3 BD's, and either some Metolious TCU's or Aliens for anything smaller than that. If you feel the need to double up on these sizes, get some of the cheaper brands (which works just fine, but just not quite as nice). A friend of mine has several of the larger Ocun cams, they seem to be well made, but I wish they had machined cams stops.
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sharpie
Aug 11, 2003, 3:07 PM
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Here's a cam sale at Mountain Gear: http://www.mgear.com/pages/sale/closeouts.asp?level2_id=16&level3_id=0&level2_title=Climbing+On+Sale
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shortfatoldguy
Aug 11, 2003, 3:15 PM
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The Rock Empires are okay in the small sizes. Stay away from the bigger ones. The middle cam lobes are way too close together, which makes them walk a lot more than they should.
I like the Kongs/Trangos (same cam). Love that swaged thumb loop on a single stem. I doubt they'll last like a Camalot, but they're cheap and tested under the same conditions and nice to place.
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braaaaaaaadley
Aug 11, 2003, 3:39 PM
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Interesting... you all are slowly talking me into the technical friends. How many cams do you need to own before you are quite sure that you can climb any climb you step up to? Another question... can you use offset friends for regular placements? lotsa questions!
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e_wire
Aug 11, 2003, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: How many cams do you need to own before you are quite sure that you can climb any climb you step up to
Hummm... it all depends on where and what you climb. No real recipe here! If you climb in area's where all you have is small finger cracks, concentrate on small cams to start with. If you climb in the Gunks, you need a good variety of cams. For my area's, a single rack, in the WC friends, is composed of 8 cams. From 00 to 3.5. This covers the range of placement I need.
Again, analyze where and what you'll be climbing. Talk to other trad people in your area to find out what they're using.
Hope this helps.
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epic_ed
Aug 11, 2003, 4:09 PM
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In reply to: Another question... can you use offset friends for regular placements? lotsa questions!
Not usually. Their website indicates both cam lobes have enough caming range to be place like a regular cam in some cases, but I'd expect to find this more the exception than the rule. Offset Friends are simply one set of lobes attached to the stem on one side, and the next largest size lobes attached on the other. So in order to fit, the crack would have to be a very unlikely size that would allow all four lobes of the cam to be contracted >50%. If you climb at areas that have a lot of flaring cracks (piton scars, perhaps), then the Offset Friends might be something to pick up to supplement a standard rack, but not something that you want to have as the backbone of your rack.
As an aside, most people who have used the Offsets agree they aren't very useful in the smaller sizes, especially compared to the Hybrid Aliens:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37008
Ed
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braaaaaaaadley
Aug 11, 2003, 4:22 PM
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Yea, up2top thats what i thought b/c why the heck would you want reg cams when you could have ones that fit wierdo placements and normal ones. Again, thanks everyone for your responses.
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petsfed
Aug 11, 2003, 5:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: How many cams do you need to own before you are quite sure that you can climb any climb you step up to Hummm... it all depends on where and what you climb. No real recipe here! If you climb in area's where all you have is small finger cracks, concentrate on small cams to start with. If you climb in the Gunks, you need a good variety of cams. For my area's, a single rack, in the WC friends, is composed of 8 cams. From 00 to 3.5. This covers the range of placement I need. Again, analyze where and what you'll be climbing. Talk to other trad people in your area to find out what they're using. Hope this helps.
Conversely, if you climb in Eldo, like I used to do, everything from the blue alien to the 3.5 camalot was necessary The little camalots, by the way, are useless. Get down to the #1 or .75 but no smaller. Since I've moved to Laramie, my rack focuses on the wider stuff even more.
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joegoesup
Aug 11, 2003, 5:46 PM
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As a beginner I would look for cams that have cam stops that are machined, or full strength when open, in the event a placement walks on you. As you gain experience with placements you can work other types into your rack.
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braaaaaaaadley
Aug 12, 2003, 12:58 PM
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Alright, last question... after buying a set of "good" cams which would serve as the backbone of my rack, would it be wise to buy forged friends to double up the popular sizes, or should I go with the cheaper cams (rock empire etc.)?
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holmeslovesguinness
Aug 12, 2003, 1:29 PM
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Provided you understand the limitations of forged friends (have to be tied off short in horizontal placements or pockets) then I would say yes, they are a good cheap way to beef up an existing rack. I have an old #4 forged friend that has seen a ton of use. I plan on getting the #2 and 3 forged friends as well. I probably wouldn't get anything smaller than the #2.
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reno
Aug 12, 2003, 1:47 PM
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From a pure money viewpoint (all prices approximated, based on prices at various local shops... discounts, sale prices, close outs, etc. do not apply here):
Camalots: $60/cam
Tech Friends: $50/cam.
Trango Cams: $40/cam.
Rock Empire Cams: $35/cam.
Forged Friends: $30/cam.
So, I've got $700 to spend. I can buy, at most (since price changes as you get into the REALLY big or REALLY small cams, and I didn't factor in sales tax):
11 Camalots
13 Tech Friends
17 Trango Cams
20 Rock Empire Cams
23 Forged Friends
Given the *Serious* limitations of Forged Friends, I would personally opt to buy either 20 Rock Empires or 17 Trangos. More rack for your buck.
Some independantly owned shops will cut you a deal... buy 15 cams at once, and get a discount/freebie. The shop I bought from in ATL would do this... I'd buy 11 biners, and they'd give me one for free. Or perhaps some webbing... or a bag of chalk... etc.
The other factor here is "How does the cam feel to you?" If you are comfortable placing the gear, and it feels good to you, and you have faith in the gear, then the name is just that... a name.
Buy what you like. Skip the stuff you don't. Do not spend your money on a piece of gear because it's what your buddy/partner/etc. likes.
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petsfed
Aug 12, 2003, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: From a pure money viewpoint (all prices approximated, based on prices at various local shops... discounts, sale prices, close outs, etc. do not apply here): Camalots: $60/cam Tech Friends: $50/cam. Trango Cams: $40/cam. Rock Empire Cams: $35/cam. Forged Friends: $30/cam. So, I've got $700 to spend. I can buy, at most (since price changes as you get into the REALLY big or REALLY small cams, and I didn't factor in sales tax): 11 Camalots 13 Tech Friends 17 Trango Cams 20 Rock Empire Cams 23 Forged Friends Given the *Serious* limitations of Forged Friends, I would personally opt to buy either 20 Rock Empires or 17 Trangos. More rack for your buck. Some independantly owned shops will cut you a deal... buy 15 cams at once, and get a discount/freebie. The shop I bought from in ATL would do this... I'd buy 11 biners, and they'd give me one for free. Or perhaps some webbing... or a bag of chalk... etc. The other factor here is "How does the cam feel to you?" If you are comfortable placing the gear, and it feels good to you, and you have faith in the gear, then the name is just that... a name. Buy what you like. Skip the stuff you don't. Do not spend your money on a piece of gear because it's what your buddy/partner/etc. likes.
I disagree only in that I will always prefer quality over quantity. I approach building my rack as if price were no object, simply because in the long run, it isn't. It takes longer to get the gear I want, but I'm not buying the same size in a different brand several times over. By the time I'm through I expect to have several of each sized camalot to #4, as well as numerous #5 and #6 tech friends. YMMV
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imaclima
Aug 12, 2003, 3:24 PM
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CCH Alens are the best (in my opinion) for the smaller sizes, you can cram a 4cu into the same place as a 3cu. So, blue through red Aliens. Bigger sizes, BD Camalots .5 through 3 or 3.5 (anything bigger will probably just collect dust. As far as the cheaper cams, just remember-you get what you pay for, and when I'm playing with my life I'll spend a little more money for quality gear.
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