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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 9:42 PM
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Don't bother him with the facts....his mind is already made up.
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wigglestick
Sep 3, 2003, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: If you want to make a difference, then do so. Sending them money is a waste of resources. Do what I did. Cut the check, but for the land itself, not the Af, and control access as an individual.
Well, you obviously make more money than the average climber does yourself. Not everybody can afford to just "cut a check" and solve a problem. Maybe you can, but the rest of us have to rely on larger organizations in order to make our 50 dollars a year worth more than 50 dollars a year. I see your point drkodos, but the same things could be said for every charity. Every charity should make its own existence useless but that rarely happens. So tell me drkodos what should I do with my 50 bucks next year?
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 9:54 PM
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It took me over twenty years to save the money.
Take your $50 and do something nice for your wife and kids.
Teach them how to not depend on organizations to do their bidding.
Teach them that actual human behavior in the right direction is more powerful than any $50 check.
Almost all Access Issue that the fund gets involved with are 100 % avoidable. They stem from people overstepping their bounds and infringing upon the rights of others.
There are certainly more noble and worthy causes to support than rock climbing, which in the scheme of life, is a rather selfish pursuit, no?
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madriver
Sep 3, 2003, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: Don't bother him with the facts....his mind is already made up.
....these are facts......?
In reply to: The original mission ALWAYS becomes compromised, because the need for self survaival of the organization becomes greater than the need to solve the problem they originally set out to address. It is apparent in ALL fund raising groups. Period.
In reply to: 68000 plus undisclosed 503(B) annuity benefits for an organization that is only taking in about 800,000 per year is offensively high. That exceeds 8.5% of the AF total take for the year.
....acctually he governs a Fund listing over 2.5 million in total assets..and no I don't find the 68 grand offensive
Bob
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't bother him with the facts....his mind is already made up. ....these are facts......? In reply to: The original mission ALWAYS becomes compromised, because the need for self survaival of the organization becomes greater than the need to solve the problem they originally set out to address. It is apparent in ALL fund raising groups. Period. In reply to: 68000 plus undisclosed 503(B) annuity benefits for an organization that is only taking in about 800,000 per year is offensively high. That exceeds 8.5% of the AF total take for the year. ....acctually he governs a Fund listing over 2.5 million in total assets..and no I don't find the 68 grand offensive Bob
Then you, my friend, are clearly part of the problem.
The fund only takes in $800,00/year and he grabs over 5%! That is a greater amount per year than they've ever spent on land aquisition!
Take a look at his annuities package. These guys are building their retirement nest eggs on this.
Didn't you learn anything from Enron?
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brutusofwyde
Sep 3, 2003, 10:45 PM
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I feel that the Access Fund is a worthwhile organization.
I am proud the be a member, and participate in volunteer projects as well as donate to the A.F.
Also volunteer for and donate to the ASCA and several other climbing-related organizations.
Brutus
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dave1970
Sep 4, 2003, 2:10 PM
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....acctually he governs a Fund listing over 2.5 million in total assets..and no I don't find the 68 grand offensive
Bob
Bob,
Look on page 3 line 59B of the linked tax return. It shows total assets of 585,641. It is not 2.5 million.
You are either very lazy or financially illiterate. I think I will go with the latter.
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madriver
Sep 4, 2003, 4:51 PM
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..?...
Definitions
Revenue: Money that the organization has received from contributions, grants, the performance of services, etc.
Expenses: Total amount spent on programs, administration, and fund-raising.
Assets: All income received and property owned by the organization.
Liabilities: All expenditures paid and debts owed by the organization
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dave1970
Sep 4, 2003, 5:00 PM
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Goodness Bob,
You certainly are financially illiterate. You are thoughtful, however, for highlighting in black your total ignorance of the difference between a balance sheet and an income statement.
Reference the specific line numbers from the linked tax return in the future. That is if you actually have any factual statements that you would like to attempt to make on the subject.
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 5:08 PM
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Bob needs to believe.
It would rock his world, and make him realize possibly much of his other beliefs are misguided if he were to realize the error of his ways.
Remember: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
Some people really prefer to stay in the cave, while others don't even realize they are in the cave.
Most people need to cling to their beliefs, and when a person has a personal and vested interest in something, it often become impossible for them to accept that they could be mistaken. They build layers and layers of rationalizations on top of their error so that it cannot possibly be revealed to them.
Usually I stay in these posts for umpteen pages, bringing out all the aces, but in the end I guess very little changes.
People mis-read, mis-interpret, and mistake the facts, all in their vain attempts to not have to question what they think they know.
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madriver
Sep 4, 2003, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: You certainly are financially illiterate. You are thoughtful, however, for highlighting in black your total ignorance of the difference between a balance sheet and an income statement.
...I'll let you keep diggin your own hole...
drkodos....your blanket generalized statements are just that...I really don't know why I'm defending AF....their Tax return and Guidestar Financials do not seem offensive TO ME.....if you have a problem with them....than we agree to disagree. From MY perspective...the amount of time and effort and money that they DO apply to THE ISSUE of Access and Education is more than worthwhile. I am not bitter if the people who spent or spend a good portion of their lives to further their cause recieve compensation for same. YOU may have a problem with this...I do not...if on the other case said directors are blatently raping the public through a shame organization I would oppose...this does NOT appear to be the case with AF.
Peace
Bob
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 5:34 PM
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Bob, these people are not spending very much time.
Have you been to any of their meetings like I have?
Do you go to their "gatherings?"
Do you have any real first hand knowledge, or just a set of "feelings."
You are being fooled.
Tell me, specifically then, just what the A$$hole Fund has done for you?
Or for that matter, tell me something specific that they have done positive for climbing?
You keep asking for proof and when it is presented to you, you dismiss it. Therefore I ask YOU for something tangible other than your feelings.
I have firsthand knowledge of how these guys manipulate other people into spending money.
Their finacial statements are very telling. They are not spending money on the issues they claim.
They are investing in Annuities for their own retirements.
They are responsible for the CLOSINGS of areas.
They antagonizae local land owners, threaten them with being tied up in the courts if they don't comply and they are sleeping with the larger outdooor companies to grow the sport so that THEY, not us, can have bigger cars, houses and better lives.
You seem reasonably smart and intelligent. Can't you realize that that AF is not neccessary at all? That what they do is a smokescreen that allows climbers to continue acting in a irresponsible manner? It allows people to stay unaccountable for their behaviors.
Perhaps you can't, or don't want to see the truth. You keep relying on your feelings instead of your intelligence.
That is a mistake, because emotions change but 2+2 always equals 4.
Good luck in your own Fund Raising (Jeeez, maybe that's why you won't capitulate, because then you realize your own org is headed in the same direction).
Have fun climbing.
Be safe.
Do the right thing.
and one more: How can you have an Iconclast such as "Bluto" in your sig and not realize what he stands for?? QUESTION EVERYTHING!!
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fredbob
Sep 4, 2003, 6:55 PM
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I carefully reviewed the entire 2001 return posted. It does not support a single "point" that "drkodas" tries to make. If the Access Fund were an individual, I would imagine the process server would be knocking at drkodas' door for his malicious and clearly libelous attack.
As the return clearly shows, all of the AF's Board Members travel and attend meetings on their own dime (none had any expense reimbursements). Board Members not only donate a tremendous amount of their time, but in addition to financial donations, pay for airfare, hotel (if they want to stay in The Mountain House at the Gunks for $300 per night at their own expense, who are you to complain!), food, etc., etc., etc.
In addition to Board Members, there is a whole network of Regional Coordinators (local volunteers) who work on regional access problems, work with local climber organizations, and often are the contact points for local land managers/owners. They get paid nothing for what is really a time consuming, part-time job.
The small staff of the AF is generally paid pretty low wages for full time++ job. As shown on the return, the salaries of these people are allocated to either services toward the AF's mission or to management/fundraising. The percentage of time and money allocated to fundraising is VERY LOW compared to most non-profits.
Drkodas: Please do not climb at the many areas that the AF has provided money and volunteers to build trails, bathrooms, brochures, signs, biological studies, promoting low impact education, cash grants to many local climber groups, and money/support/time (all cost money) to purchase climbing areas, parking areas, and easements. This may mean you will have to stay home and spend your time writing more venomous lies and posting them on the internet, where any fool can make themselves heard.
I am proud to be a member of the Access Fund and proud to contribute money and time every year to the AF. All AF members should feel proud that climbers have a voice and an organization that supports us all (even if we disagree as to certain issues).
Drkodas: Obviously you have personal issues with the AF. I don't necessarily agree with everything the AF has done over the years, but by FAR they have been an effective and positive force in climbing. And with the pundits in the media out on the attack again against climbing (e.g. Time Magazine), climbers should contribute more time and money to local organizations and the Access Fund.
Isn't it curious that as the environment comes under attack by the special interests in Washington (logging, grazing, mineral extraction, Clean Air Act) public attention is diverted to the "real" threat that climbers present to the balance of nature?
Randy
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hugepedro
Sep 4, 2003, 7:45 PM
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In reply to: Most people need to cling to their beliefs, and when a person has a personal and vested interest in something, it often become impossible for them to accept that they could be mistaken.
Drkodos,
Not meaning to offend, I enjoy many of your posts, but you are clearly the one with a HUGE ax to grind here. Obviously, you feel you have been wronged by the Access Fund. My advice to you: let it go, man, count backwards slowly from 10, and just let it go. :wink:
In reply to: Tell me, specifically then, just what the A$$hole Fund has done for you?
Preserved one of my favorite climbing areas with a $30k grant used to purchase the land from private landowners then donate it to the state park for management under stipulation that climbing shall be allowed forever.
I am aquainted with a Regional Coordinator, and I have a pretty good idea of how much effort he puts into it (close, if not more, than a full time job's worth of time) - without compensation. His talents and efforts in dealing with local access issue have kept our areas open. He is very good at what he does we appreciate him greatly.
You seem to have this idea that climbers give their guilt money to the Access Fund and do nothing else. Most of the climbers I know who are Access Fund members also volunteer their time on projects, and belong to their local crag organization, and get involved. Explain to me how that is bad for climbing?
Organization is power, my friend, and climbers need power these days. The Access Fund is a body that represents us on a national level. While I agree with all your points about the need for individuals to be involved and to exhibit behavior that furthers our cause, that does not get us into the halls of power where we need to have a voice.
None of the financials that have been posted look even close to being out of line to me. Your comparison to Enron is absolutely ludicrous. I would not work for the Access Fund, in any position - they don't pay enough! 68K is far below market value for that position, by at least half. That's bottom of the rung, first line manager money.
Peace.
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 7:51 PM
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I guess as a professional Iconoclast, my job being the tearing away at Venerated Institutions, and the breaking of myths, I come from a different perspective.
Maybe it's an individual vs group thing as really it is not a personal axe.
They have done nothing to me except exist. And I find that to be the REAL issue for me.
Good point on the guilt money, but I believe that for every ONE that fits the model you describe, there are fifty that do not.
So, maybe in reality, I am just saddened that the AF needs to exist, and like a little boy, if I make it go away, then everything esle will be alright.
Goodnight, I am off to look for monsters under my bed.
PS.. My attacks while maybe malicious (they are not, I am just questioning their needs, are certainly not libelous. You should know this. In what way do my statements hurt the AF? By making people think about it? I would love to see the circus of this one in a courtroom..... :wink: )
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: . And with the pundits in the media out on the attack again against climbing (e.g. Time Magazine), climbers should contribute more time and money to local organizations and the Access Fund. Randy
Finally caught that red herring, slippery slope in your argument....
Let me ask you this...
How would no climbing hurt this culture?
I mean I wouldn't like it very much, and it would certainly effect YOU personally, but c'mon....
Climbing is a vain, self-serving pursuit, that adds nothing to the culture (except maybe through literature and the creation of myth)
Is it possible for you to take a more philosophical look at this pursuit/lifestyle/sport/whatever-you-wanna call it and realize that it really isn't as significant as we would like it to be?
Just wonderin, because most seem to be always focused on the minutae instead of the larger spectrum.
It's always "GIVE ME PROOF!"
then "I DON"T ACCEPT THAT AS PROOF"
Philosophically, most people pose a challenge because they will
not establish a varifiable bar for a burden of proof.
Randy, I respect your position, and as you can (hopefully now) see I am looking at it from a different set of lenses then you accuse. Not out of maliciousness or libeliousness, but as to truly question what it really is that people have to offer as their proof for why something is Good.
I appreciate deeply all those taking the time to read and respond in so thoroughly a manner.
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hugepedro
Sep 4, 2003, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: I guess as a professional Iconoclast . . .
Where can I get a job like that? What does it pay? Can I be your apprentice? Does it say "Professional Iconoclast under your name on your business card?
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: Does it say "Professional Iconoclast under your name on your business card?
Yes it does.
Adventure Exploration Photography Philosophy ICONOCLASM
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hugepedro
Sep 4, 2003, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: How would no climbing hurt this culture? I mean I wouldn't like it very much, and it would certainly effect YOU personally, but c'mon.... Climbing is a vain, self-serving pursuit, that adds nothing to the culture (except maybe through literature and the creation of myth) Is it possible for you to take a more philosophical look at this pursuit/lifestyle/sport/whatever-you-wanna call it and realize that it really isn't as significant as we would like it to be?
Dang it! I need to be working right now, and here you go taking this thread into an area that I find very interesting (although off topic - sorry everyone for taking it further off).
As you, I also see vanity and arrogance amongst climbers. Those who think they have inalienable right to climb anything and everything in whatever style they desire give me pause. But I disagree that it adds nothing to the culture. Perhaps the value isn't easily recognizeable as something tangible, but I think there is value nonetheless.
Human beings are naturally inquisitive creatures (some of us, anyway). We explore, we learn, we push our limits. This is part of what it means to be human, I think. We sailed the seas in search of new lands. We went to the moon. We will go to Mars. There is value in these adventures that goes beyond economic payback. They inspire the imagination. When Alex Lowe died there was a lot of noise from some people about how he shouldn't have been doing something so dangerous when he had a family. I disagreed. I thought there was value in his adventures. We were inspired to see one do such amazing things. Especially in this "nanny culture" age, when we are such a risk averse society, I think we need inspiration more than ever.
On a personal level, I performed a wedding ceremony for 2 of my good friends on the summit of a 14er this past weekend. It was an amazing spiritual experience for me, a feeling I will carry with me the rest of my life. I was truly inspired by the moment.
Surely one with a business card that reads "Adventure Exploration Photography Philosophy ICONOCLASM" understands the value of inspiration, no?
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taorock
Sep 4, 2003, 8:58 PM
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Drkodos,
Note: OT
I must take issue with your (troll?) statement:
"Climbing is a vain, self-serving pursuit, that adds nothing to the culture (except maybe through literature and the creation of myth)"
IMO, every activity adds to the culture. For example: If all "youth" watches TV and plays video games, it is reflected in our culture in many ways. One way, would be increased numbers of people writing video game programs. If all "youth" goes out and climbs, we have a stronger culture because people will be more self reliant, stronger and flexible (less medical bills in the future).
If I have the presence of mind to highball a boulder problem or negotiate an exposed alpine ridge sans rope, my culture is a benficiary. Everything is connected.
I believe it is not only our natural right - but our responsibility to live life beyond and aside from how others would prescribe. Yet our culture seems to thrive on people who relinquish this natural right to so called experts and pundits so they can feel comforted by conformity(bhhaaah). This is not good for our culture.
In other words, I think that your self proclaimed iconoclasm is suspect when you make generalizations and decrees as quoted above.
Cheers,
B
Edit to add this: Looks like Hugepedro and I are on the same track
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:03 PM
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Sorry, but it is not a troll in this respect.
That is my honest feelings.
I see my own climbing the same way.
You are free to disagree, and apparently you do, but if you think it is a troll I ask that you realize it is not.
I've been climbing 30 years, and much of that time could be more productive.
If you are not inclined to see it this way....so be it.
I humbly suggest that this is a very threatening thing to most of you.
I understand one's lack of willingness to accept this.
But it is however, my point of view.
peace
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: IMO, every activity adds to the culture. For example: If all "youth" watches TV and plays video games, it is reflected in our culture in many ways. One way, would be increased numbers of people writing video game programs. If all "youth" goes out and climbs, we have a stronger culture because people will be more self reliant, stronger and flexible (less medical bills in the future).
problem with your reasoning is that it isn't that way.
if ALL went climbing who would pave the roads for us to get there?
Is this a serious statement or just an example you are using, because if this is the crux of your position, it is very weak.
If in anyway climbing contributes it is to provide outlet, like any other recreational activity. The rest of what you describe are merely tangential benefits.
Remember that climbing doesn't really build character so much as it reveals it.
Difficult to quantitatively study how successful one would be with or without climbing....
And again, I argue that climbing does contribute in the sense of literature and the creation of myth.
But climbing does not progress culture any more than playing marbles....
If anything, it takes people while in their prime years and allows them to use precious energy pursuing self important goals, by creating demons that must be chased......See: "Feeding the Rat"
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taorock
Sep 4, 2003, 9:16 PM
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DrK
More OT
No need to be sorry on my account. It is interesting. I've been climbing just a little longer than you and have never thought of it being unproductive.
Is some entity keeping track of your "productivity". Are you bound and tied and in need of rescue?
B
edit to add this: DrK posts too qick for me. This is in reply to his post before last.
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:18 PM
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In reply to: DrK Is some entity keeping track of your "productivity". Are you bound and tied and in need of rescue? B
yes myself.
Life is so short and there is so much to experience.
serious.
maybe I do need a rescue, an "intervention".
How the (expletive deleted) would I know. :shock:
as long as it doesn't involve anal probing, I'm up for anything....
and even if....
well more on that later.......hmmmm mocha double espresso enemas....
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:24 PM
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taorock:
maybe one day we can meet and discuss because I don't wholly disagree with you and you pose interesting positions, and from your profile you seem to be someone I really would sit and actually listen to what you have to say.
But....I must warn you that I talk faster than I type..... :lol:
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