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johnkitt
Oct 16, 2003, 1:17 AM
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Hello, I would like to elicit some opinions from those of you that reside and climb in the Northern Baja/Southern California Regions.
David Kennedy (the same individual that brought the San Diego Climber's Guide to the masses) has declared that he is currently working on a guidebook for Canon Tajo, Mexico. For those of you that have never been to Canon Tajo, it is a secluded climbing area a couple of hours South of the Mexican/US border. Most of the routes are bolted slab.
I already know (because they have sent me e-mails) that several of the people that have established Canon Tajo are highly emotionally charged about David’s actions. I will not post those e-mails, nor even name the authors since I do not have their permission to copy their e-mails here. However, I do plan on making all parties aware of this post. If they choose, they may reiterate their stance on this forum.
To me, there are three issues. First, is who has rights to the intellectual property of route data? David has no first ascents (that I am aware of) to his credit in this area. At least one of the first ascensionists that has contacted me has cried foul since he feels that any information he has given to other climbers was done so with an agreement that said information would never be reconstituted for commercial use.
Second, Tajo is very secluded. There is no infrastructure in place to accommodate flocks of climbers coming to this area as is bound to happen when this guidebook is published. However, there are supporters of this guidebook who claim that they could organize clean-up crews and establish fund raisers to help offset this impact.
The third issue is whether Tajo should be reserved for adventure climbing. By publishing a guidebook, there are those that feel that the author is removing the ‘adventure’ out of climbing in this area and destroy the seclusion that many have worked hard to maintain over the years.
I am trying to keep this post as neutral as I can. The main purpose of this post is to help me (and others) make informed decisions on this matter by allowing all parties to present their case either for or against this guidebook, present any concerns, etc.
Thank you, and I look forward to people’s inputs,
-john kitt.
P.S. I have not established any routes in Canon Tajo. I have never supplied anyone any topos for this area. I have, however, been lucky enough to have enjoyed this area - once.
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poodlemonkey
Oct 16, 2003, 1:58 AM
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I have climbed at CT for 10 or 12 years, but gave up on the place because I could not get enough info on some of the routes that I wanted to climb. I think that the area is beautiful and fragile and much care should be taken to respect local tradition as far as bolting. I put up 4 or 5 FA's with one of the most active of the local climbers. I have, unfortunately, lost a few friends over this issue. I believe that it is time for a guidebook. I know that my contributions to the total number of routes is miniscule, but I believe that the land is open to the public. If it is not, then what makes one trespasser different from the next? Belonging to an exclusive club of "approved" climbers? If the land is open to the public, then a thoughtfully written guidebook could provide important information to help safeguard the area and the rock itself. I truly believe that we as climbers have a responsibility to be cognizant of access-related issues and show respect where it is due. I wish to share my routes with other climbers. I enjoyed climbing them and believe anyone who wishesshould have the opportunity to know where they are and what they are so that they may be safely enjoyed. I do not believe that the "adventure climbing" arguement is anything more than an attempt to control the number and nature of climbers in the area by people who have no legal authority to do so. Yes, I question your authority guys. Perhaps by cooperation we can all do some good. Peace on earth, goodwill toward all. Mike L.
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socalbolter
Oct 16, 2003, 2:00 AM
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i have mixed feelings.
i've had the pleasure of climbing there many times and have bolted new routes there. part of me would like as many people as possible to enjoy the great routes there, for there truly are some amazing routes to be found on the many formations. quite a few of these routes are unlike things i've ever climbed elsewhere in the style and type of features that they offer.
that said, i can honestly say that a large part of the experience is the sense of remoteness and of being in a foreign environment and a country with little or no support system if something was to go wrong. you really are out there on your own for the most part.
a guidebook would certainly change things.
although i've never had problems with break-ins or theft, i've heard some incredibly scary stories from others who have. perhaps this would lessen with more traffic and a higher presence in the area, perhaps it would get worse as there were more people to prey on for the scoundrels. who's to say?
i had heard of the plans for a guide and am curious to see what becomes of this.
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crotch
Oct 16, 2003, 2:27 AM
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Canon Tajo is probably one of the last great adventure climbing destinations in the lower 48. American adventure climbing areas are an endangered species and this guidebook will bring them one step closer to extinction.
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pywiak
Oct 16, 2003, 3:37 AM
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This is about twentyfive years overdue. Can't imagine what the fuss is all about - general beta has been published on a number of occasions in the mags over the years. I can't imagine the San Diego crew from my generation pulling this "Locals Only" B.S. (other than in jest). Climbing there is only "adventurous" insofar as it involves a visit to our third-world neighbor, getting lost on bad roads, and running the border checkpoint on the way home. It ought to be documented, if only for historical sake. Hat's off to whoever is willing to tackle the chore - I'll buy a copy as soon as it is available.
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pywiak
Oct 16, 2003, 3:43 AM
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In reply to: Canon Tajo is probably one of the last great adventure climbing destinations in the lower 48.
When did we annex Baja, and wouldn't that make it the lower 49? :oops:
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esoteric1
Oct 16, 2003, 3:58 AM
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Add one for publishing the book! the only reason i havent gone there is because i didnt want to befriend people in a "club" im sure you know what im talking about, to be able to get some beta on the area, I think this locals only shiz comes from the quality of people we have in the southern california area, if you have traveled you know what im talking about, I think poor mans patigonia should be open to the rest of us that dont want to use people for beta, Ive had someone scribble directions on a napkin for me, but I would rather spend my time climbing, not searching the mexican desert for private property ill get shot over. face it, climbing is getting huge, i dont like it either, but it is up to us, to police ourselves, on access issues such as this. Ive heard some strange things about people, trying to bribe people not to publish this book, in order to horde it to thiemselves, all i have to say is they are greedy, typical southern california, pricks.
didnt your mammas teach yall how to share?
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aramis
Oct 16, 2003, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: I can't imagine the San Diego crew from my generation pulling this "Locals Only" B.S. It's not about "locals only", pywiak, it's about keeping CT the way it is... with no plastic port-a-potties, showers, semi-paved roads, and a souvenir store. It is about keeping the rocks free from graffitti. It is about keeping your climbing gear safe from 'burglars'. It is about being able to spend a quiet night in a nice, desolated place such as that one. You want to come down and climb? Please do so, but don't publish a guidebook that will bring 100's of climbers to take your camping spot or disturb your sleep, or steal your equipment while you are away. Climbing there is only "adventurous" insofar as it involves a visit to our third-world neighbor, getting lost on bad roads, and running the border checkpoint on the way home. I think 'third-world' is an uneducated classification. Please take some time to review the latest (past 10 years) news and find out what our current classification is. Anyway, back to the subject: publishing a guidebook will have the effect of attracting tons of climbers. Consequently, since you are in a 'third-world' and lawless Country, being alone in a highly desolated area such as CT will certainly attract a lot of bandidos from all walks of life (including the infamous Mexican police and military). So think twice about supporting the publication of a guidebook. |
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rockmx
Oct 16, 2003, 4:43 PM
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I climb at least 1 weekend of each mount at Tajo, I love the place, I consider my self a local, I have received invitations from Kennedy to provide the little information that I have from the place, but I have never return the call. In México its very difficult to conserve the natural areas clean and free of all type of garbage, the les “local and foreign People” arrive at the place, the more chances this place have to survive.
I thing Kennedy is a good person, but he really needs to understand that things in Mexico don’t work the same way as in the USA.
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rockmx
Oct 16, 2003, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: (including the infamous Mexican police and military)
En todos los años que llevo recorriendo diferentes partes de mi estado, nunca he tenido problemas con los retenes del ejercito, especialmente con los que se instalan dentro de la sierra para evitar como tu mencionas que personas con malas intenciones puedan hacer de las suyas.
Tampoco he tenido problemas con los ocasionales retenes de corporaciones federales o estatales.
Donde si te puedo dar la razón es donde dices que si el lugar empieza a ver un alto trafico de personas entonces tendremos la visita de “ratas”.
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sonso45
Oct 16, 2003, 5:02 PM
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I put up a lot of routes and have always wanted to get to CT. Notes on napkins were never enough, but I recently tracked someone down with specific info on a route I heard about. I am willing to share info with the public but if an individual chooses not to, that is their prerogative. A guide is also valid because it can positively impact the new arrivals in a positive manner. I would vote for the guide but leave out the information from those who do not wish their routes included in the guide. M
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sc_climber
Oct 16, 2003, 5:21 PM
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I climbed CT for the first time earlier this year and loved everything about the place (pristine area, great climbing, no waiting lines to get on a route, etc). While a guidebook would provide lots of beta (not sure how useful it would be though since the author doesn't seem to climb there much but that's another issue), it will probably also ruin the place for most locals.
I've also surfed down in Baja for many years, and I've seen too many "secret" surf spots turned into crowded and complete dumps once the word got out. Now, I realize climbers are generally more environmentally conscious than most surfers, but it would just be a matter of time before CT became trashed. Besides, if someone really wants to climb CT, there are many sources of information out there...just start asking around!
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socalbolter
Oct 16, 2003, 5:30 PM
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i don't think that people have feelings as to whether their routes are included or not. it's more whether a guide should be done or not?
my feeling is that if there is to be a guide produced, that it should include all available route info.
my gut feeling is that it's time for this guide, but i still have some concerns (see my previous post in this thread). it's an amazing place with stacks of good climbing and more to be done.
many people equate CT as the home to the throne, but it's so much more than just that. most people who visit never make the effort (or care to) to get down and climb on the throne itself, but instead enjoy the hundreds of routes found on the upper formations. for those that haven't been, CT is hard to decribe, but kinda like a cross between josh and tuolumne in the style of climbing to be had. some of the more unique and impressive routes follow very disctinct dike lines on walls of all steepnesses.
as i mentioned before, i'll be curious to see what happens with this. i imagine that unless some serious amount of reasoning is offered and accepted that the project will go through with or without people's assistance.
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apolobamba
Oct 16, 2003, 6:08 PM
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I will not support a guidebook. A guidebook will take away from the romance of the place. The climbing was fun but it is not that much different then J-tree. The rock is very similar. I have been there 3 times. The best things about the place are the lack of rules and people, and camping among the pine trees. It reminded me of what the older generation had at places like J-tree and Tahquitz before the crowds and the rules came along.
But it is only a matter of time, before it will all be gone. Of coarse, signs, Porta-potties and crowds will take away from the place. But everything changes.
A guide will be published (has? -R&I). If not by him someone else. I can not blame people for wanting a guide. Who does not like to be in on the inside track? Christ, I have hand sketches and cobble together notes of the place.
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sharpender
Oct 17, 2003, 5:46 PM
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apolobamba wrote: In reply to: I will not support a guidebook.
Hear Hear. I second that. I also note that sc_climber writes that the author doesn't climb there much. He has written other guide books on areas that climbers self published guides on, using there info to his profit.
Sometimes the best progess is to leave well enought alone. Leave canjon taho the adventure it is. 8)
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bvb
Oct 17, 2003, 7:56 PM
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i was deeply involved in the first/second "wave" of canon tajo development -- 1976 through 1979, then a quite a few more trips in '85 -'87. the thought that some bonehead is going to publish a guidebook to the area is incredibly demoralizing. it seems that these days, people become so locked into their perspective that they totally lose sight of the big picture. the "magic" of canon tajo -- the very thing that makes the place so special -- will be irrevocably lost once the guidebook is published. there will be no putting the genie back into that bottle.
anyone can find canon tajo without a guide book -- it's easy, just buy the topo map for the sierra juarez and navigate your way in. the domes are easy to spot from some distance away, and you can vector into the climbing area by line of sight. the main camping spot is dead obvious, and the routes are as easy to find as can be -- just hike around the bigger domes and look for cracks, or bolted face routes.
there is no real justification for a guide -- dave kennedy is motivated by either greed -- he thinks he'll make money off the book -- or the burning desire to enhance his "reputation" as player in all matters canon tajo -- particularly ironic, given the fact he does not climb down there much.
a beautiful, remote area that does not suffer the ill effects of a guide is a rare and precious thing. why ruin it? it's like that last buffalo hunt -- we're slowly killing off the undocumented "adventure" areas, one at at time. and canon tajo is one of the last, best of these places left on the map. a guide book to the place will be a tragedy, and will rob future generations of the opportunity to discover and explore the place on their own. dave kennedy should be ashamed of himself. his effort to publish is as transparently self-serving as they come.
and the idea that the "anti-guidebook forces" are some small group of "san diego locals" is poppycock. the area was first discovered and developed by groups as diverse as fred becky, from washington, and scott baxter, from arizona,and duncan fergesun, from colorado. and as has already been mentioned, folks from all over the world seem to find their way to canon tajo without a guide. when kennedy and friends start mouthing off about their greedy "locals", it's just a ploy to divert attention from the real question: why are they producing a guidebook to an area that has done just fine without one for 30 years? and why does dave kennedy choose to ignore the inevitable effects a guidebook will have -- namely, the permanent erasure of the magic, spirit, and adventure of the area??
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mister_mestizo
Oct 17, 2003, 8:27 PM
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wow! you can just feel the emotion in some of these messages.
YES! Canyon Tajo is/was one of the most beautiful experiences one can have on the West Coast. I was lucky enough to visit this area many times in the early 90's... often during the week, when we saw no-one else around. What an incredible, wonderful, delicate garden of stone, pine trees and cactus. Imagine what J-Tree must have been like, 75 years ago. Adventure, solitude and the clean clean desert-mountain air. We never asked for information and every climb we did seemed like a discovery (even though we were only repeating lines.) Was that lucky, or what?
Now the inevitable is finally going to happen - information is going to appear, as it eventually does, and hordes will follow soon after, straining the miniscule ability of this area to support large amounts of visitors.
My sincere hope is that the local administration will be informed so they can have the best possible opportunity to prepare an intelligent response. Isn't the area within a Park of some kind (Parque de la Constitution de 18something I think I once saw on a map.) And there are plenty of ranches around - is there an association of local ranchers?
PLEASE - to those who are thinking of publishing information to this area - please do your best to provide information to the local authorities on the impact of an increase in visitors so that this wonderful area can have a chance of being conserved. Even if it's hard, even if no-one locally may seem to care at first, it's the responsible thing to do.
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bvb
Oct 17, 2003, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: Imagine what J-Tree must have been like, 75 years ago. Adventure, solitude and the clean clean desert-mountain air. We never asked for information and every climb we did seemed like a discovery (even though we were only repeating lines.) Was that lucky, or what?
no, it was not a matter of luck. it was the calculated end result of generations of climbers who frequented canon tajo, but had the foresight and self-control to NOT publish -- specifically so folks like you could discover the place in your own time, and on your own terms, and experience that adventure and solitude you write of. Dave Kennedy has unilaterally chosen to rip off future generations -- to rob from them the opportunity you, and countless others have had to enjoy a huge, primo area that is a place you discover a day at a time -- not by following maps and topos in a guide.
In reply to: Now the inevitable is finally going to happen - information is going to appear, as it eventually does, and hordes will follow soon after, straining the miniscule ability of this area to support large amounts of visitors.
why is it inevitable? is Dave Kennedy actually so self-centered that he will ignore all of the incredibly good reasons not to publish?
In reply to: PLEASE - to those who are thinking of publishing information to this area - please do your best to provide information to the local authorities on the impact of an increase in visitors so that this wonderful area can have a chance of being conserved. Even if it's hard, even if no-one locally may seem to care at first, it's the responsible thing to do.
there are no controls down there. it is in a national park, but one that is utterly unmanaged. a guidebook, with the attendant impacts that guides bring, will have the end result of accelerating the trashing of the area at an exponential rate. anyone who saw what happened in joshua tree over the last 30 years can just imagine what may be in store for canyon tajo.
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fredbob
Oct 17, 2003, 9:48 PM
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While i'm sure people will call me a hypocrite, but what is the burning need for a CT guide? Are hundreds of frustrated climbers clambering for better information? Will a guidebook have a positive or negative impact on the area? Will the non-route information in the guide, help alleviate a growing problem with crowding, environmental impacts, rescues of lost climbers, etc? Or will the guide likely increase such problems. Or is the real motivation (as some have suggested) to fill a market niche (make some money).
Dave Kennedy should ask himself these questions. Publishing a guidebook requires you to balance these often conflicting issues. Publishing the first guidebook for an area makes the stakes higher and balance point between these considerations even more skewed toward preservation of the status quo.
My sense (as a person who has climbed in CT very occasionally over the last 25+ years) is that a guide will do more harm than good. In addition to social and environmental impacts, and the permanent loss of a type of "adventure" climbing that does not require a huge commitment of time and energy, it may very well lead to increase criminal activity of all sorts...
Whether Dave Kennedy is "local" enough to write the guide should not be a consideration. Is a guide a good thing for the area should be a paramount concern.
My vote is no.
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bvb
Oct 17, 2003, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: Add one for publishing the book! the only reason i havent gone there is because i didnt want to befriend people in a "club" im sure you know what im talking about, to be able to get some beta on the area
esoteric1, could you please explain this a little more? are you suggesting that there is something impeding you from just jumping into your car, driving down to canon tajo, and going climbing? you don't have to "befriend" any "undesirables" to go climbing down there. you just jump in the car with your possee and have at it!
everyone talks about needing "beta" to the area -- doesn't it occur to any of you that when folks first started going there, there was no "beta"?
people who wanted to go there just packed up and went. you don't need anyone's permission, and you sure as hell don't need a guidebook. the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have been climbing there and somehow lived to tell the tale are living proof of this....
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roughster
Oct 17, 2003, 10:46 PM
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Will a guidebook will bring "HORDES" of new people with it???
I call B.S.
Filter #1: The area is south of the border. A lot of people do not like taking their cars into Baja and for good reasons.
Filter #2 The area is Josh like Granite. Now if it was overhanging limestone..maybe :lol:
Filter #3: It is a complicated approach/drive even with directions.
Filter #4: More than likely car break-ins etc... will continue and this will cause some to shy away from the area.
Those are just SOME of the reasons why it will never see "hordes" of people. Will it get more popular and have a more regular usage? Yes, the guidebook will do that, however I am very skeptical of people's motivation when they claim "hordes" will descend. IMO that shows the person has other, and most likely selfish, reasons they are protecting.
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roughster
Oct 17, 2003, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: people who wanted to go there just packed up and went. you don't need anyone's permission, and you sure as hell don't need a guidebook. the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have been climbing there and somehow lived to tell the tale are living proof of this....
And people will still have that option. Don't buy the guidebook..insta-adventure again!
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crotch
Oct 17, 2003, 11:06 PM
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In reply to: I call B.S. Those are just SOME of the reasons why it will never see "hordes" of people. Will it get more popular and have a more regular usage? Yes, the guidebook will do that, however I am very skeptical of people's motivation when they claim "hordes" will descend. IMO that shows the person has other, and most likely selfish, reasons they are protecting.
If you call it selfish to want to preserve what people have called the "magic" of Canyon Tajo, the mystery and thrill of discovery, the adventure, the solitutde, then I would say that it is just as selfish to want to take that away and have topos and beta for every rock out there. And we know that Granite doesn't keep people away. Look at Josh.
In reply to: And people will still have that option. Don't buy the guidebook..insta-adventure again!
Will the mystery and adventure still be there when you're queing up next to somebody spraying beta on A Farewell To Arms? Will it still be there when you have to share belays on the Pan-Am? Not in my book.
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inflight
Oct 17, 2003, 11:10 PM
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We can agree to disagree.
We can fight verbally and possibly physically.
But there is no legal way to prevent a guide book from being published.
We can only speculate what the impact would be.
Territorialism does exist but maybe it does not have a place among the majority of people and in contemporary society.
The only thing that has changed in our society is technology it seems. We continue to be territorial and combative.
I understand the point of preserving the sense of adventure.
I have climbed down there with the a 'hardman' and I respect his point of view BUT it is impossible to control people with territorialism-threats and opposition.
The vast majority of climbers I meet are great people. And we are talking about fellow climbers coming to share a great experience.
Guidebooks have kept many novices off dangerous routes so this is one benefit we can expect.
Most of the routes I've done are 5.10's and up so you won't see newbies down there who can't lead.
You would likely see seasoned climbers who can offer you a lead belay and a beer.
We all have this in common: we love the outdoor adventure experience. And, wouldn't you want to be surrounded by like-minded people who will likely end up being your friends?
Peace!
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bvb
Oct 17, 2003, 11:17 PM
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roughster, your index of "filters", and your apparent belief that these "filters" will keep crowds at bay.....well, whatever....
if a guidebook to an area like canon tajo gets published, the use will increase exponentially. particularly when you look at this in a regional context....if you live in san diego, CT is actually closer than josh, and the driving time is the same, or less. add to this the no hassle/o ranger environment, the fact that you'll ALWAYS fiind a place to pitch your tent, even at 11:30pm on a friday night...well, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what will happen over time.
LEAVE IT LIKE IT IS.
you claim to be "calling b.s.," but it's plain to see you are talking out your ass from a position of near-total ignorance of what's at stake or the issues involved.
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Canon Tajo Guidebook???
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