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feelio
Oct 19, 2003, 11:39 PM
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Been climbing in LCC a long time. Lots of new, unecesary squeeze jobs going in all over the place. This canyon has a trad history, and it needs to be respected. Just because something isn't bolted, does not mean it is an FA waiting to be claimed, or needs to be bolted and lead to pump an ego. I have seen some stupid ass squeeze jobs going in. Sasquatch Direct? gimmie a break. Last pitch of Tingey's proper?It's a 5.6 crack for Gods sake, why is there a new bolt right next to it? Just because it's an old Pin, doesn't mean it needs a new bolt, modern gear will cover most pin placements nowadays. Another is the last pitch to Pentapitch, under the rap line. We thought about bolting that 7 years ago, with a hell of a lot less bolts, to boot. I decided since it was a top-rope, it really didn't need a new bolt line. Endless Torment is another, sporting a new bolt, where used to be a great RP placement. Lesbian squeezeplay..fun, but did there really need to be another pitch there? it's shares anchors, so it's not relieving any route congestion in the area. I think if some of these are new climbers to SLC, they need to be educated, or their routes erased. I hate to see such a wonderful area as LCC degraded by sackless folks, who think they are so creative as to bolt on rap, and squeeze in routes. Right of Tarzan..another Squeezeplay. Does anyone know who is doing these? Identify yourselves, and defend your routes, as all good first ascentionist should.I know other climbers are seeing these as well, and I am not the only person it's pissing off. Bolted anchors where gear anchors have sufficed for 20 years? Lastly, whoever did the job of bolting Sasquatch Anchors should be marshalled out and shot. Glue In? why? Could you have made more of a visual mess of this fine piece of stone?Two sets of anchors at the same level? 10 Inch chains? That tree has been rapping folks for longer than you have even been breathing, probably. sad. Then again I am not suprised, climbing as a whole is being dumbed down for the masses, sterilized, and cheapened. Why place pro, when a shiny bolt is so easy and safe? Read your history people...we don't need to degrade the rock, to bring it down to our level. We need to sack up, and be bolder within ourselves. They had it right 20 years ago, we are stepping backwards here with all the sugercoated clip-ups. If you want to go clip closely spaced bolts...head to BCC, and all the new squeeze jobs over there. Leave this wonderful, bold, proud canyon to climbers that can deal with runouts, and bold leads, and making the decision to climb these routes, or put up new proud lines ground up, on lead, in a style of respect this canyon deserves. After all, it is the flavor there, and it's being disrespected. Just cause it isn't grid bolted, doesn't mean you "discovered" it, it is 2003.
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grayhghost
Oct 20, 2003, 12:50 AM
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WORD UP! I am glad someone is finaly saying what needs to be said about LCC. But you forgot the fact that the direct start to the low traverse on Schoolroom also is sporting some new bolts. Also, what happened to the back-breaker rock at the base of the Green Adjective? I came up one day and the top had been blunted with a chisel, then a month later the whole thing was gone, complete with drill holes in the pieces on the ground. Poor. Some chopping is very much in order.
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rockprodigy
Oct 20, 2003, 3:18 PM
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Feel better?
I'm not familiar with all of the new bolts you mentioned, but I would like to comment on the rap anchor off Sasquatch that replaced the rap off the tree. I haven't seen this one yet either, but it is becoming a matter of policy for many climbers to replace tree/shrub raps with bolts and chains. I don't understand why that is so offensive to some people, but I would argue that it has much LESS visual impact than 24 different colored slings, 3 feet long, wrapped around a tree. Furthermore, the rock isn't harmed by the bolts, like the tree is harmed by the webbing.
As for the other bolts you mentioned, if they were placed on a TR that can be lead with gear, why did you never lead this route? Did you not think it was worth it, or was the gear inadequate? Apparently, someone new came along and decided it was worth it. I guess time will tell...if it's too squeezed, or a dumb route....nobody will climb it....or maybe it will be a valued addition to the climbing in LCC.
There has been some discussion about new bolts at www.utahclimbers.com you may be able to find the perpetrators there.
As far as your feeling that "LCC has a trad history that needs to be respected"...uhh, you should check your history.
Rap-bolting was accepted in LCC 20 years ago. Bolts were placed next to cracks, routes were (gasp) hang-dogged. There are lots of glue-on holds and squeezed routes as well. The cool thing about granite is that you can't dictate where routes go...you have to follow the features, and sometimes features are squeezed. There are tons of squeeze jobs in LCC that are great routes, it's just the nature of the beast. My point is, there have been a wide variety of tactics used in LCC over the years, to claim that it is an exclusively trad area is misleading.
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brianinslc
Oct 20, 2003, 4:48 PM
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In reply to: Been climbing in LCC a long time.
Sorry, mispost, see below...
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feelio
Oct 20, 2003, 4:50 PM
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Yes, I do actually. Just because routes where rap bolted 20 years ago, by no means indicates this practice was accepted. All I am saying here, is that there are plenty of other places to go stroke egos, and put up squeeze jobs to get your name in the guidebook. This canyon is very special to me, and it seems to be getting the shaft by climbers unwilling to step up. It's all just rants and bitches I know, but that is what the USA is all about. I am free to express my opinion, and you are free to express yours.
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brianinslc
Oct 20, 2003, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: Been climbing in LCC a long time.
Goin' on 19 years for me.
In reply to: Lots of new, unecesary squeeze jobs going in all over the place.
New, yeah, "unnecessary"? I dunno. Matter of debate.
In reply to: This canyon has a trad history, and it needs to be respected.
I agree, but, there has been some newer routes done that are very worthwhile additions to the canyon. And, the older tradsters don't seem to be around as much as they once were, or, there presence isn't as "felt".
In reply to: Just because something isn't bolted, does not mean it is an FA waiting to be claimed, or needs to be bolted and lead to pump an ego.
I think if you chat with the FA guys, they would probably say they are opening new terrain as a gift to the climbing community, rather than an ego pump. Some folks just like sniffin' new stuff.
In reply to: I have seen some stupid ass squeeze jobs going in. Sasquatch Direct? gimmie a break. Last pitch of Tingey's proper?It's a 5.6 crack for Gods sake, why is there a new bolt right next to it? Just because it's an old Pin, doesn't mean it needs a new bolt, modern gear will cover most pin placements nowadays.
Stem the Tide? I'd take a bolt over the old pin that was there any day. Good luck gettin' "modern gear" to work there. I think (for better or worse) that pins gettin' replaced by bomber bolts has become the standard lately (in cases where "modern gear" won't work in that flaring knifeblade or shallow LA crack). Especially on a long established route.
In reply to: Another is the last pitch to Pentapitch, under the rap line. We thought about bolting that 7 years ago, with a hell of a lot less bolts, to boot.] I decided since it was a top-rope, it really didn't need a new bolt line.
I guess someone thought different, eh? And the feller that bolted it has been around for awhile. Less bolts? Eeek. That thing looks hard, is 5.11b or so? Argueably, any thing could be toproped. Hard to know where to draw the line. Folks like leadin', I suppose.
Part of me does really dislike them convenience anchors at the start of that bolted pitch, though. Have to say I used them to rap off Pentapitch a few weeks back, though. Hmmm.
In reply to: I think if some of these are new climbers to SLC, they need to be educated, or their routes erased.
It isn't new climbers. Its old(er) climbers. Please have a chat with the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance prior to any bolt chopping.
In reply to: Lastly, whoever did the weak ass job of bolting Sasquatch Anchors should be marshalled out and shot. Glue Ins? why? Could you have made more of a visual mess of this fine piece of stone?Two sets of anchors at the same level? 10 Inch chains? That tree has been rapping folks for longer than you have even been breathing, probably. sad.
Easy there, killer. I'm somewhat in agreement, as I walk off down the gully (and there ain't nuttin' wrong with walk offs, or havin' to bring an extra rope along instead of installing anchors every 30 meters).
Trees are gettin' hammered and its nice to preserve them. Plus, they tend to collect huge wads of tat.
In reply to: Read your history people...we don't need to degrade the rock, to bring it down to our level.
Ok, here's a history quiz. Which Wasatch guidebook does this quote come from?
"The rock, like the best of woman, can only take the occasional pounding".
In reply to: We need to sack up, and be bolder within ourselves. They had it right 20 years ago, we are stepping backwards here with all the sugercoated clip-ups. If you want to go clip closely spaced bolts...head to BCC, and all the new squeeze jobs over there. Leave this wonderful, bold, proud canyon to climbers that can deal with runouts, and bold leads, and making the decision to climb these routes, or put up new proud lines ground up, on lead, in a style of respect this canyon deserves. After all, it is the flavor there, and it's being disrespected.
Remember the controversy that "All Chalk, No Action" caused? Seemed downhill from there.
I like the ground up ethic in LCC. But (big butt, perhaps), it seems most of the newer rap drilled routes are being put in by folks who've been around a long while here.
In reply to: Just cause it isn't grid bolted, doesn't mean you "discovered" it, it is 2003, and this canyon has picked over since the 50's.
BS. Yer kiddin' me. You sayin' there hasn't been a decent new route done since the fifties? Better read some of that history yer sprayin' about (ha ha).
Part of me thinks it neat that new routes are still goin' in. Take the line to the right of Kermit's Wad, fer instance. Bolted on lead last year? Felt like at least 5.11a to me. When I first saw it from Kermits, I thought, whoa, what sackless rap bolter did that. After doin' it, didn't feel so well bolted. And, after an enquiry, I found out it was bolted on lead. Very impressive.
Then part of me bums when I see shiney new bolts on a pitch I soloed in the mid eighties (Mantle Variation of Schoolroom, a route that already existed in the guidebook). But, last time I climbed it, I clipped those durn bolts.
I'd say, before you get all amped up and take to the crowbar, chat with some folks first. I know who is putting up a fair number of the routes and anchors you've mentioned. They are reasonable folk. You should try some direct dialog with them.
I mostly agree with what you're saying.
Good vent!
Brian in SLC
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feelio
Oct 20, 2003, 5:43 PM
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Brian,
well put. I know, i know...got a little steamed, sorry just venting, or maybe stirring the pot a little I suppose. Firstly, I would never go chopping, that is worse than just leaving the bolts in, even when done imperceptably. And no, I am not saying that all these routes are bad, or unecesary. My main point is just that there needs to be some constraint it seems. I understand the desire for "new" as I also have put up new routes, it just bums me out to see routes that I lead in the past with fine gear (maybe spicy, but that's character building right?), sprouting new bolts. Much like the mantels variation. Some of the new routes are definatly great additions (new route on kermits! BRAVO!!!), it just seems that there is a difference between new routes and variations. Some just seem very contrived to me. Remember when TC put a station at the top of hatchet? Seems to me that thing has disapeared over the years. Anyway...as I said, just my 5 cents. You gotta admit those anchors on sasquatch are kinda ugly and overkill.
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nateyoun
Oct 20, 2003, 5:58 PM
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i definitly agree with your feelings of squeeze jobs. and i have seen a few up in LCC.. but on thing i'd like you to think about is your feelings about these bolts put in when the protection is a bit spicey... now, i don't have the best head when it comes to trad, espcially when the gear is bad. So when i get on a route that's got poor gear, long runouts and is at my limit, it's nice to see a bolt there. I'm not really into climbing for any sort of brush with death. I like being scared. but only when i know i'm really safe.. example. last pitch of pentapitch. there's a lone bolt.. i was really happy that was there.. that slab fall would have been harsh. I can understand your feelings when you get on your favorite route that's run out and reallly really heady cause the gear is bad... and you see a bolt, and it causes you to completely loose that feeling you went out there to get, but by adding that bolt it allows those folks who are not as interested in that feeling, but more the pure enjoyment of climbing.. if you wanna keep that feeling... just don't clip it.. adam stack did some crazy hard crack on sketch gear back near boulder ( i think) even though it was all bolted..
so now we're up to 7 cent..
Nate
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rockprodigy
Oct 20, 2003, 6:07 PM
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Nate I don't think that is a good argument. If you just want to enjoy the climbing, but not be scarred, TR the route, you don't have to lead it. If you add a bolt, the route is never the same because you always have the option of clipping the bolt...there's no commitment.
Ask youself this:
What would be the difference between free-soloing a route and climbing the route with a rope and a rack, but not placing any gear? Is the latter a true "free solo"?
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triznut
Oct 20, 2003, 6:30 PM
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Here Here Feelio
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braon
Oct 20, 2003, 7:05 PM
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In reply to: ...I like being scared. but only when i know i'm really safe...
In reply to: now, i don't have the best head when it comes to trad, espcially when the gear is bad. So when i get on a route that's got poor gear, long runouts and is at my limit, it's nice to see a bolt there. I'm not really into climbing for any sort of brush with death. |
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nateyoun
Oct 20, 2003, 8:53 PM
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I was hoping my post was to be taken more of something to think about and less of an arguement.
to be honest after i posted i had lunch with a friend who i go trad climbing with alot and she sort of tore me a new one if you know what i mean.. but. i did come out with something.. i think what i was trying to say with my post is this.
as an experienced climber who leads fairly strong, i think you(no you specifically, but a general you) need to think about everyone and how less experienced climber may or may not feel on a 5.5 or 5.6.. i only say this because of routes i've been on at a harder grade or routes i've talked to people about.. examples. equipment left.. and fallen arches.. there are two bolts on equipment left.. the first one protects 10-15 foot run out above a pretty good medium stopper.. but the fall would send you bouncing into a corner.. it's not needed, but it's there.. there is one higher but that's for rope drag and is important to make the route enjoyable.. fallen arches (never been on it ) but i talked to someone about 4 weeks ago who did it and i remember him saying that bolt in the 12d crux is really nice, but not neccisary...
never have i heard someone complain about those bolts..
once again.. i just think we should see these climbs from not just our perspective but also from a beginners..
but.. i have to answer a few comments.. braon... about being scared, but actually being safe... ever been to a horror movie? riden a roller coasters.. bunjee jumped.. ? i get scared because sometimes i'm not rational about the fact there is a bommer cam or a bolt below me..
but braon.. i agree with about 99% about leave it how the FAer did it.. but alot of this heat comes from pins that are removed and replaced with bolts...or new pins.
as far as the R/X stuff.. i don't know where i stand on that so i can't make much of a statement, except this.. why have bolts at all, i mean. a lot of stuff in the hell cave can be topped out.. tom adams even soloed on of them.. so why bolt... it's so climbing can be safe.. so my dad can go out and get on a 5.6 and not worry about not going to work on monday because he's in traction... but.. who says everything should be well protected. some should, some should stay R/X i don't know. so i can't argue that. example. what if dan osman put up a bunch of routes.. even in one of the examples above , the route next to kermits wad.. was most likely soloed for an FA..
rockprodigy, i do like being scared. never said that i didn't... for other people. not all routes can be top roped unless you lead them.. so then do i limit myself to only top ropable routes..
once again.. this is not an argument.. i'm not saying i have an answer that everyone should follow..
i just think sometimes that people who are stronger or have a great head give other people a hard time.. and limit what they can do. some people don't want the same brush with death feeling as others.. there really is no way to win here, but i think if people thought more about others, we'd all be much happier..
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feelio
Oct 20, 2003, 11:44 PM
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Fact of the matter, is if you don't think you can lead it, come back when you think you can. It will make that onsight even sweeter. Do not degrade the rock to suit your needs. If you get scared, and gripped, you will most likely come out of it all a better/stronger climber, having learned a few things about yourself and the way your mind works. You may find two options in this case:
1) lower off. GASP! you mean place gear, and leave it? you bet...leaving that gear, and knowing how to descend safely used to be part of learning to climb. Few people are learning these skills they way they used to. Chances are you won't be doing that all the time ($), causing you to truely scrutinize yourself, and the next route before starting up it. This will also lead to the second option.
2. Climb it. Suck it up, and send it, or at least fall trying. Scary? yes. Dangerous? you bet. Adventurous? Hell yes...but no one ever said climbing had to be, or is always safe. Though thousands of people love safe sterilized routes, there are some that enjoy that momemt of electricity when you commit to a move, above gear, at your limit, outcome uncertain. These leads always stand out in my mind, ten fold, over the "safe" ones at the same grade.
When you start up gear routes, you assume all of these things. It may be run-out, the pro may be shit or all together non existent, the route inobvious or deceptive. This is Trad climbing folks, and it's meant to be full value, not a clip and go, REI funzone.
The point I was trying to make is that if every area is grid bold into submission to "safen" it up, it spells a death sentence for the true heart of the sport. I have no problem with bolts. I climb and clip all sorts of sport routes and have for 15 years. I have problems with misused finite resources, squeezeplays for the sake of "another" route, and bolts sprouting where once was none.
Like I said, plenty of places for fun/safe climbing, lets not ruin it all behind the shield of "safety". Just because someone thinks a route is dangerous or underprotected and needs a "comfort" bolt, doesn't mean it wasn't soloed by some dude in EB's in 75.
Its all about the style...and about pushing that boat out once in a while for a good, old fashioned, gut check.
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rockprodigy
Oct 21, 2003, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: I was hoping my post was to be taken more of something to think about and less of an arguement.
Nate, I wasn't trying to bust your balls, I was just trying to explain that this issue isn't as simple as "don't clip the bolt if you don't like it".
I agree that there is a lot of hypocricy in style and types of equipment by "good" climbers. For example: how bold is it for a 5.13 climber to put up a 5.8 with no gear?? Not very bold if you ask me, but now the route is virtually off limits to actual 5.8 leaders. When "good" climbers put up dangerous routes at an easy grade I think it is a pointless ego stroke. If you're such a bad ass, put up a 5.13 with no gear, otherwise make it a do-able route for people that climb at that grade. That's why routes such as Intensive Care are so impressive, because they were bold, but they were also at the physical limit of the climbers who put them up. It wasn't easy terrain they could safely solo, oh no, they took the whippers, now that is bold.
In reply to: fallen arches (never been on it ) but i talked to someone about 4 weeks ago who did it and i remember him saying that bolt in the 12d crux is really nice, but not neccisary...
Any chance that conversation took place in Hell Cave 4 weeks ago? If so, that was me. That is part of what I meant when I said:
In reply to: As far as your feeling that "LCC has a trad history that needs to be respected"...uhh, you should check your history.
Good discussion here.
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feelio
Oct 21, 2003, 3:15 AM
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Anyone who is trying to give me grief for saying.....
"LCC has a trad history that needs to be respected" and that I need to review my history, needs to wake up. Trad does not mean "never ever uses bolts". It means used sparingly, with respect to the stone, and the ambition of the climbers. Not placing a line of stainless, every 4 feet, 3 feet from an existing route.
Gimmie a break, you know what I am saying here. I am very aware of the history of the canyon, and the exceptions, and the controversies, but if you ask any SLC climber "is LCC trad or sport" I am gonna say that 99% say Trad. Anyone else care to place a wager?
You know what I mean here, and if you would like to talk history I would be happy to, as I have been climbing in the canyon for almost twenty years. I do agree that 5.13 climbers putting up run-out 5.8's, is not doing anyone a service, but you know what? tough shit. That is exactly it, right there...everyone thinking routes should be made for everyone, nice and safe. That is BS. Climbing does not need to be a community service action. Don't like it? don't climb it. Which is essentially what the FAist of these new routes that I think are squeezed, can say to me. The beauty of climbing, is that we can all find ways to express ourselves in different ways. The bold, runout, two bolt route and the 40 bolt community service route, are both expressive of someones vision. People will gravitate to the kind of climbing they enjoy. But any time you place a bolt, or drill a new route, you better be ready to hear some opinions, or even see your route disappear. All this discusion was meant to do, was to get folks thinking about the use/misue of this rich climbing area.
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rockprodigy
Oct 21, 2003, 3:56 AM
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In reply to: All this discusion was meant to do, was to get folks thinking about the use/misue of this rich climbing area.
Point taken.
I'm just sick of people blaming all the ills of the world on Generation X! My point is that "we didn't start the fire". You have been implying that all these bolts were put in by young newcomers, and my rebuttal is simply that such "un-ethical" bolting has been going on long before the term "Gen-X" was ever coined. Don't act like the "misuse" just started over the past few years because if that's what you call "misuse", it's been going on ever since the mormons quarried the first rock.
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feelio
Oct 21, 2003, 3:58 AM
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oh..and as far as the bolt on fallen arches, it resides at that local, because the FA team placed it on the original aid climb, then used for the free variation.
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feelio
Oct 21, 2003, 4:02 AM
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I hear you rockprodigy. I am totally, not sticking this to any age bracket, simply to the FAists tactics, be they young or old. Re-reading the posts, I never said anything about age, but I did imply these folks might be new to the area (though brian in slc corrected me, thanks brian!) As far as the church goes..I figured they wouldn't stop till the 3rd vault was drilled right through the Green A. I am just worried that the "bolt every square inch" mindset that has ravaged other areas will take hold in LCC, that is all. trust me, I know that the misuse has been going on a long time, but if you are truely a GenXer, then believe me when I say, this controversy is nothing new, and there are a lot of routes that have come and gone, because people didn't like the ethics and took action. This of course, is not the answer either.
Not trying to diss anyone here, like I said, just raise awareness.
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gawd
Oct 21, 2003, 5:18 AM
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why cry about it?
if you do not like it take action
that is what the rap bolters did
your actions are no more justified/condemned then the rap bolters
they felt there needed to be a route/ you felt otherwise
actions speak louder then some pissing and moaning on the internet
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veep23
Oct 21, 2003, 9:10 PM
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I don't think he's really pissin and moanin, I think he is just wanting to have a conversation!
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brianinslc
Oct 21, 2003, 10:14 PM
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In reply to: why cry about it? if you do not like it take action that is what the rap bolters did your actions are no more justified/condemned then the rap bolters they felt there needed to be a route/ you felt otherwise actions speak louder then some pissing and moaning on the internet
Much easier on the rock to spray here. Boltin' choppin' boltin' choppin' doesn't do anyone any good at all.
Better to talk it out. Give folks a chance to vent.
The climbing community seems pretty friendly here. I'd like to see it stay that way.
Brian in SLC
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bsmoot
Oct 22, 2003, 1:59 PM
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Rock Prodigy:
How old are you? Were you climbing in LCC back in 1983? You said "rap bolting was accepted 20 years ago". Sorry man, but nothing could be farther from the truth! Back 20 years ago, I was just finishing up my guide book with Les Ellison and we were very dialed in to the climbing community. Believe me, rap climbing was bogus. Also, where did you get the idea that placing bolts next to cracks was ok back then?
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mikeasca
Oct 22, 2003, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: WORD UP! I am glad someone is finaly saying what needs to be said about LCC. But you forgot the fact that the direct start to the low traverse on Schoolroom also is sporting some new bolts. Also, what happened to the back-breaker rock at the base of the Green Adjective? I came up one day and the top had been blunted with a chisel, then a month later the whole thing was gone, complete with drill holes in the pieces on the ground. Poor. Some chopping is very much in order.
Why in the world would you miss the ass breaker rock at the base of Green A? Was it part of the original route or because you just dont want to do the 5-10 start?
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feelio
Oct 22, 2003, 8:51 PM
Post #24 of 71
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Registered: May 1, 2002
Posts: 60
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next we'll have people car-jacking the bushwack boulder over to get the true FA. :roll:
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brianinslc
Oct 22, 2003, 8:58 PM
Post #25 of 71
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Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
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In reply to: next we'll have people car-jacking the bushwack boulder over to get the true FA. :roll:
Naw, not required. I've done Bushwack many times starting on the ground below that boulder. Super fun.
Geez, wonder who pushed off all the rock on Catalyst and Old Reliable? Anything to get some new rock I suppose. Ha ha.
Brian in SLC
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