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jt512
Oct 23, 2003, 1:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Instead, keep focusing on delivering quality services to your customers (advertisers) and your product (users). Um, that's the point of the new forum. -Jay Jay, Um, It's super that you have a point. But on this one I have to agree with flamer, whose best point was that your WW thread belongs in the technique and training forum. -Jeremy
By the same logic, the Technique and Training forum belongs in the General forum.
Plus, I have to agree with on_sight_man, but I'll be a little more blunt: What's it to you? If you don't want to join the usergroup, ignore it. It's existence has no effect on you.
-Jay
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jt512
Oct 23, 2003, 1:54 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: No. We would be offering Arno some advertising in exchange for his participation in lieu of cash. "in exchange for" ???????? dude, that is advertising (as is this thread).
Cool. Welcome to America. Arno's got to make a living and this site has to cover its costs.
-Jay
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flamer
Oct 23, 2003, 1:55 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ]Hey you're from Boulder, maybe we should go climbing.... As odd as it sounds, that's not a bad idea. You get up here a lot?
Doesn't sound odd to me!! Yep I get up there all the time! I'm free tommorrow...
I do understand your point's and generally agree with them.
The thing is this is not a for profit site(at least that's what they tell us), the ad's pay for the site and you and I "own" it. That's my impression, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
So the reason I am here is it's a GENERAL site about climbing. If I want to go to a site about The "warrior's way" then it's there as well. If the Mods and admin. start catering to every special interest group the this site will not be what it once was...A general site about climbing.
Please understand that I'm not trying to imply that these folks are wrong for wanting a place to discuss their ideas and thought's on this book. I just think they need to be either:
#1 general about it in threads
OR
#2 find a more suitable website (like the one already setup)
So yeah drop me a Pm let's go to Eldo or something.
josh
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on_sight_man
Oct 23, 2003, 1:55 AM
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In reply to: Funny! Except what if Vinny the Pug(and I would assume his owner) offered to do some fundraiser's for the site? Or Maybe Vinny could "contribute" to his own forum? He could be an inspiration for all climbing dogs(and their owners). Then does he get his free ad?
In reply to: What about the Christian climbers ad? Why not start a christian climbers forum? Maybe their head guy could contribute then shouldn't they get a free ad??
Also, you're missing how this thing started. I don't think anyone has even talked to the author about this yet (I could be wrong). But this was decidedly not brought up by him. He hasn't "offered" anything. But even if he did, what's wrong with giving an author a bit of free advertising for coming and talking about something to people who are interested? You ever been to a free slide show? Why do you think they DO that?
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on_sight_man
Oct 23, 2003, 2:05 AM
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In reply to: The thing is this is not a for profit site(at least that's what they tell us), the ad's pay for the site and you and I "own" it. That's my impression, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
from the donations page
In reply to: I can't really say it's a non-profit corporation because it's not really anything more that a group of people trying to do something cool for the community. However, no matter how "fun" this has been for us, we still have to pay for stupid stuff like server fees and other stuff like that to just keep the "lights on."
That "group of people" thought it'd be a good idea for the community so they did it. They also are considering ways of getting the author here to help out, one way would be some advertising. We definately do not own this site no matter how important we are to its success.
PM is on the way.
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hammer_
Oct 23, 2003, 2:27 AM
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I don't care about the commercialization thing at all. It just seems to me that who ever thinks that reading a book will help you climb better is completly delusional. It's like a Dr.Phil self help book for weakminded pussies that are to scared to get on the sharp end of the rope. I very rarely write anything negative on this site but I just could not help myself, flame away.
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billcoe_
Oct 23, 2003, 3:53 AM
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I'd like to take a shot at using the WW forum to further develop my knowledge. I have the book and was having trouble "getting into it". In a discussion about the book, Wallress suggested that like in a college classroom, where you have a "teacher" and others to study with, perhaps we - the rc.comers could benefit from some sort of association. I don't think she had assholes like me in mind specifically, but it seemed like a hell of a great idea, jt and many others agreed. It was discussed on how best to further this idea ......blah blah blah my eyes were glazing over at this point, but when I popped back in ...well, here we are!!
I suppose the common thing would to be like "emily Latilla" of Saturday night live fame when she ranted and raved about all this discussion on Presidential "ERECTIONS". This goes on at some length about 'ERECTIONS" and why do we have to keep hearing about them etc etc, until the news announcer next to her points out that it's the Presidental "ELECTIONS" which is in the news, not erections.
She stares a the camera and quietly says with a small smile "nevermind".
It's time for the complainers to take a step back, think it over about who benefits, and say quietly..."nevermind".
Regards to all:
Bill
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rrrADAM
Oct 23, 2003, 4:02 AM
Post #34 of 78
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In reply to: Ok, I just looked over the link to the official "warrrior's way" website. Now I'm serious, this should not be on the site. There is plenty of room for you guys to do your "warriors way" worship stuff over there. That whole thing looks like nothing more than a glorified "pay me to tell you how to climb" deal. This is a serious FOR PROFIT organisation and should not have it's own forum. Please Moderators and Admins. take a hard look at what is going on here!! If the "warriors way" people want to place an ad then by all means!!! But don't let them have it for free!!! josh
Agreed 100%, but as Tim said on Page 1 of this thread, one person chose to make this happen despite being asked not to do so until further discussion was done.
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on_sight_man
Oct 23, 2003, 4:23 AM
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In reply to: Please Moderators and Admins. take a hard look at what is going on here!! If the "warriors way" people want to place an ad then by all means!!! But don't let them have it for free!!!
In reply to: Agreed 100%, but as Tim said on Page 1 of this thread, one person chose to make this happen despite being asked not to do so until further discussion was done.
There's two things going on here. First is the private forum. I don' think Tim said that on page one and I don't think it went down the way you're describing. Virtually all users said either "I don't care" or "Sounds good to me" to the private forum in the discussion thread I saw. How the mechanics happened I don't know. In fact, I don't really know how erections happen for stuff like this amongst the moderators ;)
The second is the advertising/getting the author involved thing. This was/is a seperate idea which the I think the USERS of this site shouldn't really be concerned with. Those involved in the creation and maintenance of the site should decide how to get interesting parties involved. If they want to PAY John Gill to post more, then they can and it's none of my business (As a matter of fact, I'd LOVE that :) As I recall, the idea was to get Ilgner to do quasi lessons via the net for advertising. Having been in the Internet advertising business, I can tell you for a fact that the site operators are probably not giving away Ad space that is already spoken for. But even if they are, SOMEONE has to make decisions about hard revenue versus site enhancement and it clearly shouldn't be the users.
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organic
Oct 23, 2003, 4:27 AM
Post #36 of 78
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I say we leave the forum up and see what kind of traffic it brings, I bet it will bring barely any, if so then what profit is it to anyone? What are there 3 posts in there so far?
Can these things not be discussed in the training forum, is that not what it is for? I think it is a lame idea, because a lot of us are I am sure between the ages of 18-30 and I am also sure a lot of us do not have the money to spend on spending time with some guy to teach us not to be afraid of heights instead we do it the poor person way and get the f*@!& out there and climb. sorry but this site does not seem to cater to the yuppies who spend money on bull like this. Geesh grow a sack people, stupid americans need self-help books to learn to shit.
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philbox
Moderator
Oct 23, 2003, 6:44 AM
Post #37 of 78
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I argued in favour of creating the WW forum. Smatter fact I took it upon myself to urge the person to create the forum. In hindsight it should have been discussed further and things could certainly have been done different from my end. So I will put my hand up for anyone to give me a bashing, feel free, I`ve got big shoulders (in a metaphorical sense, heh, I didn`t need to pay any yuppie bucks to learn that either).
If my actions have caused any offence out here in the forums then I do apologise.
All that said I think it will be a good place for those with head space problems to go and talk out what it is that is holding themselves back from achieving their full potential.
Lets give it a fair go and see how it pans out. The Warriors Way subject has had a pretty good run in the Ladies Forum and only time will tell whether the synergies work out for the mutual benefit of both this site, the users, the Warriors Way website and and the WW way of aproaching climbing.
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flamer
Oct 23, 2003, 2:24 PM
Post #38 of 78
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In reply to: There's a forum on slackling, moderated in part by Ammon McNeely. I don't go on it, but I also doubt that elcapbuzz gets free advertising.
A very good point!
josh
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da5id
Oct 23, 2003, 3:09 PM
Post #39 of 78
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I don't think this is really an issue about the book or the author at all. It's really about the concept of changing the site. Relatively small, insignigicant changes, such as the introduction of this private forum and offering free advertising in exchange for participation to the author, are not in them selves anything much to get worried about. I think what most of the dissenters in this thread are really worried about is that this sort of business will become common place on the site and grow into something much worse than what it is now. It doesn't matter how i personally feel on this subject. What matters is that the people who control this site, and give all of these great services to us for *FREE* (thanks so much, by the way, and sorry i cant really afford to donate, being a poor college student) should have a unified mission for the site. If this new type of forum and advertising deal is consistent with their mission and how they want the site to develop, then let them do it all they want. However, let them also realise that in order to have success in their goals for the site, they must factor in the general wishes of the members, so as not to alienate their customers.
One question though: What if i write a book today about climbing training/technique or whatever that ends up competing with this book? What about the books that are already out there? Will the site choose to further whatever favoritism some members choose? What will determine who gets their own forum if this sort of thing becomes common place?
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dingus
Oct 23, 2003, 3:25 PM
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As long as your club posts don't echo to the front page it doesn't really matter I guess.
If it does echo to the front page then its clear the club nature of your forum is designed to filter out unwanted comments. So if we are forced to endure the threads from your star chamber and can't offer our opinions without buying a fucking book, well...
maybe some community minded soul will out every single thread from your forum, post them to the technique and training forum and continue the discussions without the restraint of commercial enterprise.
DMT
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csoles
Oct 23, 2003, 3:30 PM
Post #41 of 78
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In reply to: In reply to: Why should he get a free banner ad? To induce him to participate. I've already said that. In reply to: If he does wouldn't that be a commercial deal with Mr. Ilgner? In a limited sense, I suppose it would. In reply to: I completly understand people wanting to discuss things like this, and support it. However, it need's to be done in the same general way as everything else on this site. If not then aren't the advertiser's who pay getting cheated?? No. We would be offering Arno some advertising in exchange for his participation in lieu of cash. -Jay
Cool, so when do I get my free advertising on rc.com? I've been here for quite some time but haven't tried to sell my books by jumping into every thread that might be related. So I just have to hype my books to get a free banner? Awesome, I'll start commercializing every relevant post.
Please establish a forum for my book Climbing: Training for Peak Performance, which even has a chapter on mental training. Also create a forum for my book Climbing: Expedition Planning. I have another book coming out in the spring so you can create a forum for that too. I'll call Eric up and invite him to create a forum here so we can be fair.
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vertical_reality
Oct 23, 2003, 3:33 PM
Post #42 of 78
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A little while ago I made a suggestion that there should be a Books forum so that everyone could discuss various climbing books... but of course that idea was shot down right away. So now we have a forum based on one book????
WTF?
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cryder
Oct 23, 2003, 4:03 PM
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.....
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vertical_reality
Oct 23, 2003, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: A little while ago I made a suggestion that there should be a Books forum so that everyone could discuss various climbing books... but of course that idea was shot down right away. So now we have a forum based on one book???? WTF?
Sorry, it was actually thomasribiere that made the suggestion for starting a book forum. Unfortunately one of the mods felt that it was not necessary so I suggested that a section for books be added to the Gear Review section.
So why is it ok for ONE book to have a forum where it can be discussed?
This is the link to the original thread that thomasribiere started...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40424&highlight=book%2A&sid=76b64d9b3a8d8071db9c5eafb9d5e10d
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vertical_reality
Oct 23, 2003, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: Well, it must be said for rradam, he's consistent in his beliefs, i.e. against the book forum, against the WW forum. I guess, for WW, he got shouted down.
I hope it didn't seem like I was making a jab at Adam, if so, I appologize. I was just trying to get my point across.
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jt512
Oct 23, 2003, 4:52 PM
Post #46 of 78
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In reply to: Please establish a forum for my book Climbing: Training for Peak Performance, which even has a chapter on mental training. Also create a forum for my book Climbing: Expedition Planning. I have another book coming out in the spring so you can create a forum for that too. I'll call Eric up and invite him to create a forum here so we can be fair.
Clyde, your books are great, but there isn't the demand for a discussion group for them. Arno did not initiate the idea of our having a WW working group. I did.
-Jay
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jt512
Oct 23, 2003, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: A little while ago I made a suggestion that there should be a Books forum so that everyone could discuss various climbing books... but of course that idea was shot down right away. So now we have a forum based on one book???? WTF?
The idea wasn't shot down, and might still happen.
-Jay
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orangekyak
Oct 23, 2003, 5:00 PM
Post #48 of 78
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Instead, keep focusing on delivering quality services to your customers (advertisers) and your product (users). Um, that's the point of the new forum. -Jay Jay, Um, It's super that you have a point. But on this one I have to agree with flamer, whose best point was that your WW thread belongs in the technique and training forum. -Jeremy By the same logic, the Technique and Training forum belongs in the General forum.
No, that's twisting the logic. The General Forum is defined as follows.
"General climbing discussions. If your post is related to a Forum below, please post there. "
This clearly shows that General is the overflow for threads that do not fit in the categories that have been deemed important for organization of topics and usability of the site (such as Technique and Training).
I doubt there was any uproar over the creation of a gearheads forum. It makes sense, because a significant number of threads are gear-related. My limited knowledge of WW tells me that it's about mental training. There has not been, and likely will not be, a swell of posts about WW. Put it in T&T.
In reply to: Plus, I have to agree with on_sight_man, but I'll be a little more blunt: What's it to you? If you don't want to join the usergroup, ignore it. It's existence has no effect on you.
Although I usually agree with both you and rrradam, I can't agree that users should not be concerned with the fiscal well-being of the site. I like the site, benefit greatly from it, and want to see it continue to thrive. Likewise, I care about the well-being and access to the crags I climb on. I do not own them, but I will continue to audit the activities of the individuals and organizations that do.
My feelings about the separate forum are that it is silly and illogical. My feelings about giving free advertising to this gentleman are that it is irresponsible and stupid. He gets free advertising already for us talking about it. He will get free advertising if he joins the site and discusses it.
If anything, you should be CHARGING him to have his own PRIVATE FORUM to work in. It's like you want to pay him to come guide at your home crag. Letting him in for free is payment enough.
Sheesh. The fact that you guys can't see this is one thing. But that you would be so defensive about suggestions from your users (and that adam thinks we ought to just stay out of it) shows how persons of power on this site continue to look at the users as CUSTOMERS when they really ought to be looking at us as PRODUCT. Why do you think there are so many free cable TV channels????? Because they can deliver VIEWERS to their ADVERTISERS!!!
rc.com X=X user friendly
3 feet penalty slack!
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vertical_reality
Oct 23, 2003, 5:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: A little while ago I made a suggestion that there should be a Books forum so that everyone could discuss various climbing books... but of course that idea was shot down right away. So now we have a forum based on one book???? WTF? The idea wasn't shot down, and might still happen. -Jay
Sweet!! :D
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csoles
Oct 23, 2003, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: Clyde, your books are great, but there isn't the demand for a discussion group for them. Arno did not initiate the idea of our having a WW working group. I did. -Jay
If you build it, they will come. Please tell me the size requirements for my free banner ad.
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