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mattdog
Oct 30, 2003, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I do not free solo, because my death would not just result in my own lose of life, but the destruction of my family. What's worse, would be that I would have done it knowingly, and that is most dishonorable. I'm curious, with such strong sentiment, how do you justify the inherent risk of climbing at all? No offense intended, just chatting mate. DMT
The same could be said for driving or anything else for that matter. Thing is, I've climbed for almost 2 years, and have hurt myself far less than I did playing soccer. Most of this was due to excellent instruction, and the protection of a good rope. Free soloing, not willing to take that risk. Kinda like driving without brakes. Yeah, I could do it on residential roads, but I don't get off on it.
Climbing is definitely NOT testosterone loaded. Football is testosterone loaded. Most active climbers, I have found, are pensive, solitary, and thoughtful. you never hear about the football playing "community." They are all out to WIN.
Yet every climber considers himself part of the climbing community. RC.com is an example of this. One post about free soloing and everyone is immediately part of the discussion, whether supportive or admonishing.
Rock on, I always say.... but don't rock on with a rope ;-)
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watersprite
Oct 30, 2003, 1:23 AM
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well, my arms and back are looking very boyish. I'm not expressing myself well. yes, I climb for the focus, the intensity that makes everything else trivial - the heightened awareness that has nothing to do with chemistry. There is nothing better than the ache of bruised and tired muscles.
But then, everything I spew here is wrong ... just thinking off the top of my head.
There is nothing better than to kill your enemy and sleep with his women. Failing that, in a civilized society, you can outclimb him. I don't think climbers are inherently non-competitive. otherwise there wouldn't be so many pissing contests here.
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toejam
Oct 30, 2003, 1:25 AM
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I tried my first free solo the other day: The Eye on Cyclops Rock, Joshua Tree 5.1(felt more like a 5.3/5.4 but I might have been on Circe). I'd climbed it before on rope, and it just felt right for a free solo. Planning on trying the Trough on Tahquitz at some point. Having climbed it already, I am confident in my ability to climb it relatively safely and without straying from the route. Why do it? Really for the same reasons I climb: the challenge, and the esthetic appeal.
"While danger ought never to be needlessly incurred, it is yet true that the keenest zest in sport derives from its presence, and the consequent exercise of those abilities necessary to overcome it." - Teddy Roosevelt
While some would argue that to solo, or indeed to climb at all is to needlessly incur danger, my own estimation of the rewards of climbing and its impact elsewhere in my life justifies it. I am a safety freak, and generally more conservative than most climbers I've met, in terms of my comfort level with placements and anchors. I just don't see soloing certain routes as particularly dangerous, compared with leading trad on say a 5.9 with sketchy pro.
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rvega
Oct 30, 2003, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: Define a clear line of demarcation between soloing and what... hiking? See, free soloing evokes the image of the careless 21 year old guy out to impress the ladies by dashing up the Nutcracker for the weekend tourist run. And that goes on, a lot. But there is a whole nuther class of free soloing that has little to do with impressing anyone and is typically found within the confines of a much larger game. Cheers DMT
DMT,
You points were quite valid. When I first began climbing I went to a crag with only trad and sport routes. I had never seen someone boulder (or even hear of it) before. The first time I saw people "bouldering" I immediately thought they were free soloing. I just assumed they would fall either hurt themselves or hurt themselves and those crazy people standing right underneath them.
But now that I'm an experience climber I have different perceptions of soloing. Only once in the past had I ackownlegde that what I had done was soloing and it was not by any means a choice but by accident. Some of the things you pointed out made me think about some of the times I inadvertenly soloed when I was on an approach or an exit. I don't think I ever saw them as soloing but maybe you are right. Granted I never wanted to solo.
However I think when people discuss soloing they are talking about big 5 class climbs. In the recent issue of R&I they didn't mention any of the stuff you just did. The stories about Steph Davis on Snake Dike, Potter on Half Dome (forget the climbs name), and all the other stories were about doing serious rock climbing were a fall meant death and not about "hiking" or 4th classing it. This is what people are told is "soloing" and there in no wonder why people might question the rational for such a life decision.
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adamtd
Oct 30, 2003, 2:14 AM
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I like life and I enjoy climbing safely. When I go cragging I usea rope. When I go to teh high mountains I use a rope, but every once in a while it's faster and safer to solo a route. I don't solo an entire technical route that challenges me. I solo well below the level at which i lead and I do it with strong consideration. Very few people will argue with me when I say that soloing is much faster than setting anchors and placing gear. If you're in an avalanche clone or hnaging out underneith a nasty cornice that could go at any minute, I want to spend as little time there as possibel and there for solo it. It's teh age old question in teh mountains, "When do you climb roped/unroped?" I say that as you spend more time climbing and the more diverse situations you see, the more often you'll see a need for soling. Yes you can always turn around and head home, frankly, teh drive home can be more dangerous than ten feet of easy soloing.
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ricardol
Oct 30, 2003, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I do not free solo, because my death would not just result in my own lose of life, but the destruction of my family. What's worse, would be that I would have done it knowingly, and that is most dishonorable. I'm curious, with such strong sentiment, how do you justify the inherent risk of climbing at all? No offense intended, just chatting mate. DMT The same could be said for driving or anything else for that matter. Thing is, I've climbed for almost 2 years, and have hurt myself far less than I did playing soccer. Most of this was due to excellent instruction, and the protection of a good rope. Free soloing, not willing to take that risk. Kinda like driving without brakes. Yeah, I could do it on residential roads, but I don't get off on it.
.. i wonder how many people die free-soloing vs how many people doing roped climbing .. (granted per capita alot more will die free-soloing) ..
.. my point is that you can die in either sport, regardless of how excellent your instruction is or how good your rope is. -- you dont have to take my word on this, just look at the multiple threads on this forum about fatal accidents.. -- so if you think that causing your own death with destroy your family, then you are already taking that risk every time your rope up.
-- free soloing is nothing like driving without brakes .. you're 100% guaranteeed to have an accident if you drive without brakes -- you're not 100% guranteed to get hurt if you free solo.
.. better to just face it -- we're all going to die one day, might as well be doing something we love (free soloing or not!) .. -- face death and accept it.
-- ricardo
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herm
Oct 30, 2003, 3:15 AM
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I ONLY solo; in the winter it is bouldering, in the summer it is mile high ridges. I roped up about three times in as many years.
I am a Badd A$$- I can onsite to about 5.6 or 5.7, no matter what kind of rock, in almost any shoes [but I've bailed off of 5.4].....
Once upon a time I was a 5.12 trad climber, but I've become lazy......
I am 40 yrs old, I have two kids....
The closest call I've had in years was when I fell over a camp chair in my bedroom and impaled my chest on the aluminum pole- Now that was dangerous....
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mrme
Oct 30, 2003, 3:17 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If I solo 4th class I'm finally bucking the trend and going ropeless where others rope up. While not exactly the kind of soloing that gets printed on magazine covers, I thought this was relevant. At my local crag, there are several areas that require pulling very exposed moves in order to reach the base of routes or belay ledges. I personally felt confident doing them... but I made a point to climb slowly and concentrate on what I was doing. The problem with this is that it encourages others who may not be as confident to pull the same moves because they saw me do it. Monkey see - monkey do. Worse, I've seen stronger climbers in a traveling group impatiently push weaker climbers into doing dangerous things unroped even though the novices were obviously freaked by the situation. I've started trying to set a good example and rope up at these exposed spots. It doesn't do any harm, and it may do a lot of good.
at seneca wvpeople solo the summit block if you fall ya probably will die not many rope up or expect less experience people to rope up. kinda sad climbers forget others with less experince might not be comfortable with it
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dingus
Oct 30, 2003, 4:06 AM
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In reply to: I don't tell men not to start fights in bars or piss on the side of the highway. what good would it do? I just nod and smile, nod and smile...
Whoa! Letting guys be guys. You're cool.
DMT
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sean34
Oct 30, 2003, 4:58 AM
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I get fools asking WHY do u climb, WHY do u want to sell everything u own to vagabond, WHY to u want to hike the pct , etc.
My response is : If you have to ask, you prolly wouldnt understand anyway :(
I think the same applies here...
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squish
Oct 30, 2003, 5:16 AM
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In reply to: And woe to the person who is perceived as glorifying this forbidden activity, this taboo.
You would glorify it? Why? For whose benefit?
Sure, to some it's all about the glory. To others it just means climbing unroped.
I'm not against glory in dangerous climbing, but I would like to see the noobs make their own decisions. I always thought that's a big part of why it was called "soloing."
I'm also not disagreeing with the rest of your post at all, having been in many of your given situations, and having made the same rational decisions to solo. Sometimes it's definitely safer to go unroped, but to purposely make the decision to solo just based on the fact that the big boys are doing it, well that's just... Well, I don't know any of you so let me just say that it's your own decision.
If you have the experience and judgment to back it up, good for you. I totally respect that.
You see, I wouldn't want to talk anyone into it, but I don't feel it's my place to talk anyone out of it either. Simply, I wouldn't want to be sandbagging anyone whose experience and judgment I don't trust. I can't blindly trust the experience behind anonymous words posted on the www, and I won't trust the judgment of some noob who brags that soloing makes him feel drunk.
Dingus, this post probably sounds like I'm getting really defensive or something, but the above quote seems pointed at me from that other thread ("First Solo") so I'm responding to clear up my views. I guess I kind of feel that I left some unfinished business there.
Your point about the mothering instinct made me dig deep. You see, I never thought I could have one...
Now there's an intelligent way to call someone a PU$$Y!
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collegekid
Oct 30, 2003, 7:00 AM
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if you feel confident in your abilities at that level and know that you are capable of handling the mental aspects...go ahead.
You can slip on a staircase and break your neck....how is soloing a 5.5 any different? And if you can climb 5.13 with a rope, a 5.9 is going to feel like a staircase. Why even use a rope then?
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nagatana
Oct 30, 2003, 7:19 AM
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In reply to: .. my point is that you can die in either sport, regardless of how excellent your instruction is or how good your rope is. -- you dont have to take my word on this, just look at the multiple threads on this forum about fatal accidents.. -- so if you think that causing your own death with destroy your family, then you are already taking that risk every time your rope up. -- free soloing is nothing like driving without brakes .. you're 100% guaranteeed to have an accident if you drive without brakes -- you're not 100% guranteed to get hurt if you free solo.
It's about minimizing unncessary risks. The seatbelt analogy works best. And yes, climbing is an unnecessary risk from another perspective. :P
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ronamick
Oct 30, 2003, 7:20 AM
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If you climb enough, sooner or later you will end up free soloing- on the super easy stuff, if nothing else. How hard and high you go ropeless is up to you. The purest and most rewarding climbing experience is to climb without gear or rope.
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solo
Oct 30, 2003, 9:41 AM
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I solo because I am! :D (Well, not really, the nickname has nothing to do with soloing, not even climbing)
Actually I solo very little and nothing that could be considered "hard". Hard for me means, that I can not, or am not confident enough to downclimb it.
As to why. Over time some routes become too easy to be fun. You know, your local crag, a route you have climbed a hundred times, you do it just because you do not have the time to go anywhere else... If you try to solo it, its not the same anymore. You are not the same climber that can find each hold blindfolded. You are waaay more concentrated, you try to get the best grip on each hold, you carefully look for footholds, you strive for perfect balance and your moves are calculated to millimeters. You do not take chances. As a result I found that the climbing is more fluent, more estetic and more enjoyable.
Once in a while I solo just to remind me of that feeling so I can translate it to roped climbing and climb every time as if I was soloing.
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onelung
Oct 30, 2003, 9:49 AM
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In reply to: why do you solo?
Why not?
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mrme
Oct 30, 2003, 10:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: why do you solo? Why not?
and my favorite because it is there
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iltripp
Oct 30, 2003, 1:59 PM
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[quote="rvega]
However I think when people discuss soloing they are talking about big 5 class climbs. In the recent issue of R&I they didn't mention any of the stuff you just did. The stories about Steph Davis on Snake Dike, Potter on Half Dome (forget the climbs name), and all the other stories were about doing serious rock climbing were a fall meant death and not about "hiking" or 4th classing it. This is what people are told is "soloing" and there in no wonder why people might question the rational for such a life decision.
Hmm.... The thing about Snake Dike is that it is so run out you're likely to die in a fall anyway. I was scared to lead it (I've climbed it before), even though it's incredibly easy. Might as well solo it...
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dingus
Oct 30, 2003, 3:49 PM
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In reply to: You would glorify it? Why? For whose benefit?
No, I would not. You misunderstood.
In reply to: but to purposely make the decision to solo just based on the fact that the big boys are doing it, well that's just... Well, I don't know any of you so let me just say that it's your own decision.
Here is one of those ugly truths of climbing... it is populated by men in the 15-25 age group. Almost everything these people do, they do because "the big boys are doing it too," from the music they listen to, to the clothes they buy. That is just a fact of growing up as a male human. We are going to test and compare our selves, and compete against other boys in the tribe. There is nothing you can say, no advice you can give, no law you can pass, that will stop us from testing ourselves against one another. You might as well rip out our DNA and start making some massive changes, cause anything less will be futile.
The Universal Mom question: "So, if all your friends are jumping in front of trains does that mean you will too?"
YES! Yes Mom! OK? If my budds are jumping in front of trains by gawd I'm gonna too! Don't make me explain. You don't like the answer anyway.
In reply to: Simply, I wouldn't want to be sandbagging anyone whose experience and judgment I don't trust. I can't blindly trust the experience behind anonymous words posted on the www, and I won't trust the judgment of some noob who brags that soloing makes him feel drunk.
It was a pretty nice troll.
In reply to: Dingus, this post probably sounds like I'm getting really defensive or something, but the above quote seems pointed at me from that other thread ("First Solo") so I'm responding to clear up my views. I guess I kind of feel that I left some unfinished business there.
It was not pointed at anyone. It seemed as though quite a few people expressed the taboo opinion recently, not just you. My thoughts are more broadly directed at the notion, not the person uttering it.
In reply to: Your point about the mothering instinct made me dig deep. You see, I never thought I could have one... Now there's an intelligent way to call someone a PU$$Y!
Now now, my wife is a mother. My MOTHER is a mother. Neither of them are pucies. Another example... my wife and I are driving down a suburban street. Some kid goes whizzing by on a gas powered skooter. He swerves around a car partially on the sidewalk, shoots out into the street directly in front of me, causing me to slow a bit, then he whips it back onto the sidewalk after he passed the car.
He looked 15. He never once acknowledged our presence. he acted like he didn't see us. He did see us and our eyes met a brief second before he did the cut. See, he knew I had him covered and I knew he knew. It's a guy thing, this sort of silent communication. Our ancestors developed this capability for hunting and combat. Man can communicate volumes this way. It's another reason why me and my primary climbing partners don't use verbal climbing signals much. ANYWAY...
My wife was outraged. She wondered where that boy's parents were. She wondered why he wasn't wearing protective gear. She actually suggested there should be a law (there is, though I didn't mention it). She thought it would be a terrible shame for that kid to get hurt or killed.
Me? I was annoyed when he shot out in front of me. I admired his skill on that thing though. He took a high G loop directly in front of the bumper of my moving car, swung back right and hopped the curb. Pretty cool move if you ask me. And then I promptly forgot all about him.
My wife still cites the incident as the prime example that all men are crazy.
I still think that kid made some cool moves on his scooter.
DMT
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climbhighmg
Oct 30, 2003, 5:18 PM
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I haven't soloed a lot of climbs, but a few and for me its the feeling, the rush i get knowing that its just me, the rock and thats it. my first time was a 5.6 i had climbed before. i liked the climb a lot and was climbing by myself that day... bouldering. i started climbing the climb and before i knew it, i was half way up, feeling completely comfortable and i just finished it. i agree with a few others in their response, i don't solo quite near my level of climbing. it also really helps you mental awarness when you are climbing. and its a great feeling that unless you have experienced it, is very hard to explain.
good luck
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dino
Oct 30, 2003, 5:30 PM
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Because you can.
For the pessimists out there; death isn't the only outcome of soloing...
Somebody said it right, "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand anyway."
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jipstyle
Oct 30, 2003, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: it's all good, just - don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about zen ok?
How about 'don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about love and Christ ok?'
Or 'don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about submitting to Allah ok?
Would you say something so insulting to Christians? Or Jews? Or is it just eastern spirituality that you bash because you (obviously) don't understand it?
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watersprite
Oct 30, 2003, 8:04 PM
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I didn't mean Zen Buddhism the religious discipline, but the slang "zen" as in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," the term "zen" being tossed around like Feng Shui and doesn't really mean Zen the religion.
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iltripp
Oct 30, 2003, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: I didn't mean Zen Buddhism the religious discipline, but the slang "zen" as in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," the term "zen" being tossed around like Feng Shui and doesn't really mean Zen the religion.
Look here... First of all, I don't toss around the word "zen" like Feng Shui. Second, Zen is not a religion. It is a concept within a religion. Third, who the f*ck are you to decide whether I'm tossing around a word or if I really mean it. I am not Buddhist, but that does not limit me from using the word zen. It's not something that I took out of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mainenance, but something I try very hard to make a part of my daily life, whether I'm climbing, working, studying, or just hanging out. I think that the word "zen" is the only word that could possibly describe the feeling that climbing gives me.
Why don't you stop insulting things that you don't have the slightest understanding of.
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hroldan
Oct 30, 2003, 8:49 PM
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This came to my mind (don't take it bad is kind of funny) what if you are free soloing and happen to find another solo climber on the same route slower than you??? and there's no other way around??
Get out of my way!!!, :evil:
- no, you wait!!! i was soloing first!!!
climb faster you !@#!!!!
- no, wait for your turn, i'm not finished!!!! i'm in the middle of a zen!!!
HEY!, let go!!!
- watch out, don't touch me!!!!!! no ahhhahhahahahha :twisted:
just kidding, don't take it bad! 8)
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