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climbsomething
Nov 19, 2003, 5:28 PM
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Where did you get the impression that this place WASN'T chock full of "moderate" climbers? And, isn't that what makes this site so great? A couple guys may discuss some 5.12 projects now and then, but I always considered rc.com THE preferred place for the "average joe." Very few discussions are dominated by super-strongmen; the moderate climbers have always had a strong voice here. We have our 5.12 and up guys, but 5.7 guys hardly get laughed and booed off the stage around here! Which, again, I always thought was a major appeal of this place...
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brianc
Nov 19, 2003, 6:03 PM
Post #27 of 71
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In reply to: You are all closet competitors! You still compare yourselves to others, despite your mantles of moderation! You still want to be hardasses, but you're like me and refuse to make the payments! I am a moderate climber. Numbers cannot express it. Its an attitudinal thing. One person's moderation is another's "excessive risk."
Yes and no. I'm only interested in numbers inasmuch as being able to climb 5.x opens up the doors to that many more climbs at any particular area.
Red Rocks is a good example. Somewhat slim pickings (esp. for long routes) if you max out at 5.5. Lots more going on if you're solid on 5.8.
As for not willing to make the payments, you're absolutely correct. I defaulted on that loan long ago.
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dingus
Nov 19, 2003, 6:15 PM
Post #28 of 71
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In reply to: I'm only interested in numbers inasmuch as being able to climb 5.x opens up the doors to that many more climbs at any particular area.
I've heard that one a lot. Even said it myself on occasion.
I mostly don't believe it. Or better said, I don't believe it tells the 'rest of the story.' These numbers are too often expressed as a journey. A journey to where?
Higher numbers of course. Most climbers, moderate and convicted competitor alike, express their improvement as a function of charting numbers.
If you have ever referred to a route by its rating... (ie. that TEN over there is good. That 7 up there is classic!), then you too may have succumbed to the numbers race.
Do moderate climbers lose their moderation when they start improving? If I advance beyond 5.4 leads, or 5.9, or 10a or whatever, am I no longer allowed to call myself a moderate climber? Or does moderation have very little to do with the actual number grade one climbs?
On some days I can barely pull a given crack, yet even as I flail away I still consider it a moderate. Some of you might find the crack to be an easy joke, others a penultimate lead achievement. Whether that crack is 5.5 or 10a is beside the point really. Moderation is relative, therefore it cannot be expressed as an absolute.
I know 5.5 and 5.6 pitches that send cold shivers down my spine. Most "moderate climbers" would have trouble with a couple of these leads and even after 30 years of lead climbing will give me pause every time. I could say I 'sent a moderate 5.6' and point you to the thing. I would be doing you a terrible disservice if I did so.
DMT
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joegoesup
Nov 19, 2003, 6:34 PM
Post #29 of 71
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although I used to be a heavy drinker, I am now a moderate climber. 5.8-5.9 sport and 5.4-5.7 trad.
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andypro
Nov 19, 2003, 6:39 PM
Post #30 of 71
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In reply to: Closet? What closet? Plain and simple, I suck. After 3 years, I can still only top rope 5.8... barely. Doing a trad lead of a 5.6 is an epic for me. Dammit, I suck. Still have fun though.
Not directed at geezergecko, just using his post for example...
You guys who say you suck, have all the wrong attitude. You dont suck because you only climb 5.4, your jsut a 5.4 climber. I guaranfriggintee you that your the majority, NOT the minority. It may not seem like it, but ti's true.
And listen to dingus. His attitude is what everyones should be.
I honestly have no idea what I climb. I do know I can climb jsut about anyhting..and heres why:
I hardly ever bring a guidebook. I know where I'm going to climb, I head there, and find soemthing to climb. I have fun. When I get seriously stuck, Theres an easy way past that point. Case: The crux of the last 5.RGDFH I climbed (RGDFH= Really God Damn Friggin Hard, I think I found out later it was somewhere in the 13's) was kicking the aiders off my foot when I got back to the "I think I might actually be able to free this" part. Damn things just wouldn't let go :wink:
And man if I didn't have fun on that one. Tha'ts what it's about.
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traddad
Nov 19, 2003, 6:46 PM
Post #31 of 71
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Tami Knight has a great T-shirt with one of her trade mark rats, old, fat and in glasses, wearing a T-shirt which sez..."I used to be hard"
That's me.
Now I'm just channeling my inner Batso......
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tucsonalex
Nov 19, 2003, 6:49 PM
Post #32 of 71
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I probably fit into the moderate climber category. The moderate climber masses is what keeps out sport alive. Whether or not they will admit to it, I think every climber chases numbers. I'm no different. I'll spray about my latest 5.10 lead until I'm blue in the face and my partners get sick of it and throw rocks at me. Why? Because the send was hard for me and I'm proud of it. So what if my weekend project is a warm-up for the 5.12 hardman? Difficulty is all relative. Moderate climbers kick a$$.
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petsfed
Nov 19, 2003, 6:55 PM
Post #33 of 71
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I can pull some moderates at Vedauwoo, but they're the most sandbagged of all the routes at Vedauwoo (although I know a 5.0 that'll blow your socks off!).
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lunatixx
Nov 19, 2003, 6:56 PM
Post #34 of 71
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i think that numbers are making people go crazy.
i have read too many posts on that subject.
look at the rock. are you scared, happy ,or enthousiastic?
feellings make you go higher. not the grades
when i am scared i focus on my foot work, when i am not, i attemp dynos
when i am happy and secure i get into rythm climbing
when i climb outside i pratice friction...not grades
aabwh! but whatever, (=O_o=)
i am scared that this subject will lead nowhere
whatever whatever.GNNN!
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mreardon
Nov 19, 2003, 6:56 PM
Post #35 of 71
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In reply to: Like everyone else said... I'll top-rope anything. I've even come close to sending a 5.11. I think we should re-evaluate the definitions though: If you can lead up to 5.9, you're intermediate. If you can lead 5.10 and 5.11, you're advanced. If you can lead 5.12, you're ELITE. I personally think that 5.10 is pretty good for leading. You can't really get to that level without some experience or pure natural ability.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "elite" at 5.12, but the original post is right, there tend to not be many people on those lines. However, no matter what level I personally climb at, my funnest times, and personal highlights have always been bragging rights about the hitting the classics - 5.8-5.10 range. This includes an epic on "epinephrine" (5.9 in vegas), "Figures on a Landscape" (5.10b at Josh and the best climb ever in my book), and climbing with my daughter on "White Lightning" (5.7 at josh). It's all good.
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buckyllama
Nov 19, 2003, 7:04 PM
Post #36 of 71
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In reply to: If you have ever referred to a route by its rating... (ie. that TEN over there is good. That 7 up there is classic!), then you too may have succumbed to the numbers race.
This made me realize somthing odd. I tend to remember the names and not the grades of the really classic routes I've done and the grades and not the names of the average routes. I think there is something trancendent about a really great line, such that the grade matters less. I've done classics that were easy for me at the time and some that were hard for me and they all fealt somehow "right". Even when pushing myself to the limit the climbing just seemed to flow and the rock presents all the right puzzles. Less good lines just don't have the same feel and so I might send a great 5.X and yet back off a less good 5.(X-2) on the same day.
In reply to: Do moderate climbers lose their moderation when they start improving? If I advance beyond 5.4 leads, or 5.9, or 10a or whatever, am I no longer allowed to call myself a moderate climber? Or does moderation have very little to do with the actual number grade one climbs?
I agree that "moderate" is a mindset more than anything. And it does have a lot to do with numbers. What I disagree with is that "moderate" climbers are chasing high numbers, but rather that they are using the numbers as an excuse or maybe a reason not to get on various climbs. I've seen people refuse to even attempt a toprope climb that is already set up because they say "It's out of my league".
I think the real thing which distingushes a moderate climber is an unwillingness to push their comfort zone too far. If you are a mutant and naturally can climb 5.13+ practically off the couch, then leading a 5.11d is a very moderate climb for you. On the other hand if you are only capable of climbing 5.8s on toprope on a good day, then leading a 5.8 is really pushing yourself.
I also think that any of us who have been deep into this game for more than about 5 years have gone through moderate and (for lack of better terminology) extreme periods.
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brianc
Nov 19, 2003, 7:30 PM
Post #37 of 71
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm only interested in numbers inasmuch as being able to climb 5.x opens up the doors to that many more climbs at any particular area. I've heard that one a lot. Even said it myself on occasion. I mostly don't believe it. Or better said, I don't believe it tells the 'rest of the story.' These numbers are too often expressed as a journey. A journey to where?
In reply to: Higher numbers of course. Most climbers, moderate and convicted competitor alike, express their improvement as a function of charting numbers. If you have ever referred to a route by its rating... (ie. that TEN over there is good. That 7 up there is classic!), then you too may have succumbed to the numbers race.
In reply to: I know 5.5 and 5.6 pitches that send cold shivers down my spine. Most "moderate climbers" would have trouble with a couple of these leads and even after 30 years of lead climbing will give me pause every time. I could say I 'sent a moderate 5.6' and point you to the thing. I would be doing you a terrible disservice if I did so.
I like to hearken back now and again to a favorite quote of mine, I think from "Overheard" in Climbing or R&I:
"I climb as hard as anybody. I just do it on easier climbs."
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inflight
Nov 19, 2003, 7:34 PM
Post #38 of 71
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In reply to: I notice each and every one of you moderate climbers describes the extent of your moderation as numeric expressions, ie. 5.6, 5.9, five dot what EVER! You are all closet competitors! You still compare yourselves to others, despite your mantles of moderation! You still want to be hardasses, but you're like me and refuse to make the payments! I am a moderate climber. Numbers cannot express it. Its an attitudinal thing. One person's moderation is another's "excessive risk." DMT
Dingus is touching on a deeper point, does rating yourself positively impact your climbing or limit your fun? What function does rating yourself have?
I try to stay away from rating myself with such terms although it is helpful to have some descriptor to give out when meeting new partners.
I don't number chase, I climb inspiring lines that take me to racial high places and puts me in cool positions.
I'll climb with anyone in the range of 1st class to A2. What I can't free, I'll AID.
Don't ask me if I am moderate climber. Ask me to go climbing.
Wait, I must be in denial.
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cracklover
Nov 19, 2003, 7:38 PM
Post #39 of 71
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In reply to: I notice each and every one of you moderate climbers describes the extent of your moderation as numeric expressions, ie. 5.6, 5.9, five dot what EVER!
I am a moderate climber. Numbers cannot express it. Its an attitudinal thing. One person's moderation is another's "excessive risk."
DMT
Ooh, ouch! Careful Dingus, that wit of yours is especially sharp today! Okay then, numbers aside, am I a "Moderate" or a SERIOUS climber? I've only been climbing for five years, and my mind is, um, glacially slow. Not the quickest on the uptake, y'know? But I'm getting stronger and more capable every year, and I like that. Will it continue? Ten years from now, if I haven't fallen so hard I can't get up, maybe I'll have an answer for you.
More likely, I'll have forgotten the question.
GO
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vegastradguy
Nov 19, 2003, 8:03 PM
Post #40 of 71
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i love moderate trad routes! although we're working on getting stronger, i still love a good 5.7 multipitch!
on a good day, i can lead prolly 5.8+ trad (maybe 5.9-), .10c sport, .11a TR, and V1 bouldering.
of course, take this all in perspective. these are the numbers i use as a guideline for routes i want to try. i've been on a 5.6 that spit me off like i was nothing, and i've lead a 5.9+ trad route and it was easy! and while i'd love to get to leading 5.10+/5.11- trad one day, its definitely much more important that i have loads of fun and have lots of adventures along the way!
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camhead
Nov 19, 2003, 8:44 PM
Post #41 of 71
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HEY WHO WANTS TO GO DO SOME MODERATES AT INDIAN CREEK!!!!!???!!??1
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hawk233
Nov 19, 2003, 8:50 PM
Post #42 of 71
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I am a moderate climber and love it. 8)
Anybody want to teach me how to climb even more moderate trad?
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dingus
Nov 19, 2003, 8:53 PM
Post #43 of 71
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In reply to: I like to hearken back now and again to a favorite quote of mine, I think from "Overheard" in Climbing or R&I: "I climb as hard as anybody. I just do it on easier climbs."
Nice points.
And I believe that would be Jeff McCoy aka Maddog, of rec.climbing fame, to whom that quote should be attributed.
Cheers
DMT
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antigrav
Nov 19, 2003, 9:35 PM
Post #44 of 71
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In reply to: I notice each and every one of you moderate climbers describes the extent of your moderation as numeric expressions, ie. 5.6, 5.9, five dot what EVER! You are all closet competitors! You still compare yourselves to others, despite your mantles of moderation! You still want to be hardasses, but you're like me and refuse to make the payments! I am a moderate climber. Numbers cannot express it. Its an attitudinal thing. One person's moderation is another's "excessive risk." DMT
Well put. What I really don't get is every moderate climber's need to express disdain of numbers. Why not admit (to oneself) that yes, numbers matters, I am moderate, but God, how I would like to be a bit better! I cannot believe that I'm in a minority when I hate repeatedly falling off a route at my limit, then going for an even harder route immediately after I actually sent the one I fell off of all these times?!
Yes, I admit it, I check out the routes' grades, before I climb them, after I climb them, while reading guides, etc. But I'm still having fun!
Another thing I have problems grok'ing, is the leading thing. Sure, it adds a bit of scariness to a route, but is that why you climb? Well, it doesn't do it for me. Rather, I feel the whole clipping (and fear) thing disrupts the dance upwards, which I enjoy. I would rather ask my belayer to add half a meter of slack to the toprope in order not to get any "help" from it.
But hey, let's just climb the way we find most rewarding!
:D
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jman
Nov 19, 2003, 9:56 PM
Post #45 of 71
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I am a moderate climber, here me roar.
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redpiton
Nov 19, 2003, 10:23 PM
Post #46 of 71
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oh wait... this isn't the homosexual forum? :oops: :lol:
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malabarista
Nov 19, 2003, 11:06 PM
Post #47 of 71
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The only reason I want to climb harder than I do is to climb trad routes that are harder than I can lead safely.
I only climb a route because it seems like it would be fun. Run-out climbs on hard terrain and soloing hold no appeal to me -no matter how cool the routes might be.
It sucks to see an awesome route but not be able to climb it because you lack the ability to crank a few hard moves or do a certain kind of climbing like offwidth.
That is why I'm focused on improving to at least the 5.11 level of trad leading for all types, cracks, face, and offwidth.
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tim
Nov 19, 2003, 11:22 PM
Post #48 of 71
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ayup. I have led up to 5.10 on gear (at Seneca, even!), sometimes confidently, more often not.
I
I'd like to get to the point where I can climb 5.11, maybe falling here and there, maybe grabbing the odd 'French Jug' (A0), but climbing 5.11 on lead, on gear, cause that's what folks say the key for doing walls in a hurry is. I mean, I can get up a 1000' 5.8 in maybe 30 minutes if it plays to my strengths, but I want to feel that way on big, steep routes (eg. walls) and get fast, cause my eventual goal is to drag my ass up Cerro Torre. ("speed is safety" down there, for sure)
I consider myself a very moderate climber. I just want to have enough 'in reserve' to enjoy big beautiful lines in the mountains, without dying on one of them.
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wallwombat
Nov 19, 2003, 11:27 PM
Post #49 of 71
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THE WOMBAT IS OH SO MODERATE.
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winglady
Nov 20, 2003, 12:17 AM
Post #50 of 71
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In reply to: Pfffft. Moderate Schmoderate. At the end of the day the only thing that matters (besides coming home in one piece) is whether or not you had a good time climbing.
Hear, Hear!!! I couldn't agree more.
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