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coach713
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Mar 1, 2002, 2:56 PM
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Hi all,
I'm doing a lot of Top Rope Soloing. When I rappel out, and have to tie two ropes together, I have been using the double figure-8, and then someone suggested using a "water-knot" which seemed to work well..
Then I met a guy out climbing a few days ago that suggested using a "Death Knot". It was a simple Knot, and the guy said.. ""It hasn't failed me yet".. That sounded a bit scary.
Anyway,.. Is this a good knot? Does anyone here use that knot? On the Knot, he just took the two ropes and basicly just tied the two in a single water knot/granny knot. It was easy and fast, but is it that safe?
Thanks.. Actually, what knot is best for tying to ropes together to Rappel with?
Or that you feel safe with?
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clymber
Mar 1, 2002, 3:13 PM
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there are some words that dont belong together and to me DEATH andKNOT do not belong together
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mountainrat
Mar 1, 2002, 3:28 PM
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Don't know, coach. If in doubt, throw it out (of your bag of tricks). Did that guy have any visible scars, walk with a limp, or slur his words badly? Could mean something...
Just curious: are you solo TR'ing with a Silent Partner? If not, what, and how well does it work? Thanks
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boms
Mar 1, 2002, 3:55 PM
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don't use this knot, if it's the one i think you're talking about it's called a 'thief knot'/'granny knot', i.e. a reef knot gone wrong.
it will fall apart!!!!
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morgan_fines
Mar 1, 2002, 4:00 PM
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For tying ropes together I'd use a double fishermn knot (or a triple or quadruple fisherman kont) the same knot used to tie prusik cords together. Its not hard to tie and it will work very well. Just make sure you don't leave short ends hanging off the knot.
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atg200
Mar 1, 2002, 4:08 PM
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the fisherman's knot sucks for tying ropes together-difficult to untie and gets hung up easily.
i use a double figure eight when i'm not worried about the rope getting stuck, and a double overhand(also known as the euro-death knot-so named by clueless gym climbers) when i am worried. leave plenty of tail if you use the overhand.
andrew
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northcascades
Mar 1, 2002, 5:01 PM
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here's Tom Moyer's testing of the Euro Death Knot (Overhand) vs. Figure 8 vs. Double Fisherman's when used to tie two ropes together. I believe the conclusion was to use the overhand but always remember to tie your knots cleanly and pretension!
From google cache: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:FxdUTZyBi24C:www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/
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northcascades
Mar 1, 2002, 5:11 PM
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Just a tiny bit more information -- (click the link and then find "Euro Death Knot" on the page).
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/rope.html
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coach713
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Mar 1, 2002, 5:19 PM
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Thanks North and the rest of you. I definitely understand and trust the figure 8, but the over hand knot "death Knot", looked okay and was easy to do and doesn't take up as much rope. I agree that the name SURE doesn't make sense for climbing.
Boy,.. after reading what you guys had to say, I guess right now I should stick with what makes me feel the safest, then experiment later. Probably MUCH later..
I do use the water knot on all my wedding and back it up with a Fishermans... And that works great.
Thanks!
Ron
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paulc
Mar 1, 2002, 5:29 PM
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You use what knot on your "wedding"?? I assume you mean webbing?? Anyone else think that a water knot plus two double fishermans is kinda overkill for webbing? I personally use a water knot, with plenty of tail (for the rope). Although I hear the beer knot is better I have not yet had time to check it out. Probably will before climbing season gets into full swing here. I don't really have that much non-sewn webbing. Unless it is for rap anchors sewn webbing is much better in general.
Paul
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coach713
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Mar 1, 2002, 5:30 PM
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Mountain,
"""Just curious: are you solo TR'ing with a Silent Partner? If not, what, and how well does it work? Thanks"""
I set up the top-rope, then rappel over with my ATC, Then I use a Prtzl "Shunt" right off my belay loop. I then use a 2-foot sling coming off the belay loop to a "small" silent partner device also from Prtzl to back the Shunt up. Then weight the bottom of the rope so the rope runs through smoothly. I can't remember the name of the smaller device though, But I'll look when I get home. The Prtzl shunt was 40-dollars, and the small backup was 27-dollars. Both have worked great! I have not had to use the back up yet as the Shunt stops everything with no fall at all except for a little stretch.
The only problem with the small back up is going over roofs. It CAN get caught!, but I have always been far enough over to be able to reach down and adjust it.
Hope this helps. I have really researched this alot, and this seems to be the best set up for me..
Ron
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northcascades
Mar 1, 2002, 5:34 PM
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Coach -- if you read the second link I posted (tom moyer's comments on the knots) he specifically says not to use the figure 8 version of the euro death knot as it has caused at least one death and one other accident (the failure mode of the 8 is to 'capsize' at which point it becomes an overhand but has eaten up a lot of its tails in the process). If you're really conservative use the double-fishermans as it is kind of the gold standard, I usually use the overhand and just make sure to leave plenty of tails and pretension.
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coach713
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Mar 1, 2002, 5:37 PM
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Pual,
I saw that and Laughed. My Nephew is getting Married this weekend, And I probably have that on my mind..
Anyway,.. you are probably right about the over kill thing. I see things like that Death knot and easier knots and think.. WOW, That's so much easier.. Then I get out on the cliff, Look down, Glup and tie into every knot I can think of.. And back them you 14 times each!
I am hoping, that as I get better at this and keep asking questions, That one day, I can simplify things more and more, and my first thought going over the ledge isn't..
Oh GOD!, I SURE HOPE I TIED EVEYTHING RIGHT!!
Ahh yes, I love the thrill...
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offwidthclimber
Mar 1, 2002, 5:42 PM
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here's my vote for the euro death knot. that thing is bomber and it pulls easier than many other knots, decreasing your chance of getting hung up on something when pulling your ropes.
screw the double fisherman's and figure eight. way too clunky.
peace out.
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coach713
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Mar 1, 2002, 5:43 PM
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North, I saw that and even clicked over to that page. That didn't register with me at all. THANKS for following up! The guy showing me that Knot the other day started by showing we the Figure-8 death knot thing..
Right now, I am using the figure-8 where you take the second rope and re-wind it through the first figure-8 then backing it up with the Fishermans on both ends.
BUT, I WOULD have tried the figure-8 death knot first before the over hand knot.
So again.. THANKS for following up with that! I will go back now and read more and try and figure it out.
Ron
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camhead
Mar 1, 2002, 5:54 PM
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I usually use a fig8 backed up by double fishermens. Kind of overkill, but I like the security. It is also easy to get untied.
ALWAYS back up fig8s, waterknots, and such.
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spank_spank
Mar 1, 2002, 5:58 PM
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Coach - I have used a French Deathknot when rapping down. Take the two ropes and tie together with 3 overhand knots, about an inch or two apart. I hope I can explain this right, but when you do this the way the knots are tied, it prevents the rope from snagging on the rock. It make the ropes slide easier over the rock.
It hasn't failed me yet, I'm still here.
[ This Message was edited by: spank_spank on 2002-03-01 11:21 ]
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c-horse
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Mar 1, 2002, 6:45 PM
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If someone could post a link to a picture (or post a picture) of this knot - that would be awesome!
C
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northcascades
Mar 1, 2002, 7:03 PM
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http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/tech/knots3.html#2ropes
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miagi
Mar 1, 2002, 7:38 PM
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I dont know if this has been said or not cause im in a hurry writing this post but the death knot is usually referred to as the square knot without backups. It can slip easily if tension is taken off of it and put back on ect.
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jt512
Mar 1, 2002, 8:38 PM
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Quote:I dont know if this has been said or not cause im in a hurry writing this post but the death knot is usually referred to as the square knot without backups. It can slip easily if tension is taken off of it and put back on ect.
Wrong. The EDK is not a square knot. It is an overhand bend. And it does not loosen when the tension is taken off.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-03-01 12:40 ]
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coach713
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Mar 1, 2002, 9:36 PM
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Thanks for the Picture North. That is exactly what the guy showed me. I liked Spanks idea of backing it up with another overhand knot also..
I have been very cautious, but maybe I'll try the Over hand Knot on a short climb like Spank does it first.
The Picture helps to convince me that it's a real knot, and not some ones imagination gone wild..
But North, I promise to use just one Knot if I can go ten times and still be alive to tell about it.
This has been great help to me!
Thanks again...
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spank_spank
Mar 1, 2002, 9:54 PM
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Coach - Make sure its at least 3 overhand knots. Just to be safe.
Remember saftey first, having fun second.
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northcascades
Mar 1, 2002, 9:57 PM
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Try it with the backup like spank says and you'll be totally safe, but understand that one of the reasons to tie this knot in the first place is to avoid potentially dangerous rope retrival epics when larger knots get stuck and by adding the backups you increase that danger. It's not such a big thing at the crags, but in the alpine it can be scary and downright deadly.
That said, never trust your life to a knot you don't trust yourself to tie. My dad tells me stories that when he was taught to climb (early 70s) his teacher wouldn't take them out until they could tie all their knots in the dark in a cold shower. Probably overkill but it does build confidence.
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coach713
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Mar 1, 2002, 10:01 PM
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Thanks Spank, I will.
I will let you know how it goes. My Boys and I are headed to Snow Canyon Utah next weekend to do our first multi-pitch climbs. We will have lots of rappeling.
Now, if it would just STOP snowing here!!
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