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crushingfinger
Jan 13, 2004, 11:00 PM
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I learnd this from Jim Kanzler and Dave Bingham. Useing a singal locker on the first bolt protects against ground fall and pervents ground up zippering on traversing climbs. I have never seen this shown in any book. Zippering on sport climbs is really rare but it can happen. Remember: not to tighten ANY locker all the way, as a fall can streach a binner to the point that you can not untighten it, leave them about an 8th of a turn back from fully tight.
Did you Know that Rats can't throw up? :D
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furryfrisbee
Jan 13, 2004, 11:18 PM
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In reply to: Did you Know that Rats can't throw up? :D
And beavers eat their own feces, what this has to do with sport climbing though is beyond me. I have heard of people using a quickdraw with one locker on the first bolt, but I don't understand the justification. Maybe you could explain in more detail how this prevents zippering on a sport route?
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hawgdrver
Jan 13, 2004, 11:21 PM
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crushingfinger
Jan 13, 2004, 11:46 PM
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If there is enouph slack in the rope on the belay end and the climber falls the rope could whip just right causeing the draws to come of the hangers or the rope to come out of the draws.(Kinda the same idea as placing opposing pieces first on a trad climb) Again a locker on the first bolt is mainly to prevent gound fall. It's higher off the ground by a foot. Not to mention if you fall before the second clip you only have that first bolt to trust. Loops in the rope can happen causing uncliping, back clipped or not. Ground fall is the most important thing to pervent in my book.
The rat thing: just weird huh. I dont belive the beaver thing but if you say so. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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brianinslc
Jan 13, 2004, 11:51 PM
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In reply to: I learnd this from Jim Kanzler and Dave Bingham. Useing a singal locker on the first bolt protects against ground fall and pervents ground up zippering on traversing climbs. I have never seen this shown in any book. Zippering on sport climbs is really rare but it can happen. Remember: not to tighten ANY locker all the way, as a fall can streach a binner to the point that you can not untighten it, leave them about an 8th of a turn back from fully tight.
So...compare the chance of a minor axis loading on a single locking biner, to a well hinged quickdraw. Now, what are the chances of the locker loadin' in the minor axis against the bolt hanger and busting?
I think using a locking biner on a bolt hanger makes some sense on a run out slab climb, where you'll be slippin' and slidin' down the slab if you fall, and you need every inch (stone mountain belay) to keep you from hitting the deck.
Otherwise, might be more prudent to use a quickdraw, as it has the ability to orient itself correctly to the hanger with any movement of the climber and rope (more degrees of freedom). I've seen some folks carry a quick draw with a locker on either end, too, but...hmmm.
Lockin' carabiners tend to hang up on the locking sleeve if they rotate around a bolt hanger. And...I'd bet it wouldn't take much force to bust a biner which was loaded up in the minor axis position on the locking sleeve against a bolt hanger. Especially a factor 2 fall.
Most regular biners, especially non wire gates with a notch at the nose, will self orient under a load to the major axis.
Zippering on sport climbs is, maybe unheard of? Blowin' the first clip, or busting a biner on a bolt hanger, yeah. But, zippering quick draws? Nope. Has it ever happened? Not that I've heard of. Anyone? That'd be a statistical anomoly...
In reply to: Did you Know that Rats can't throw up? :D
Rats, or "ratholes"? Ha ha. Does kinda look like RM....
Brian in SLC
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jughead
Jan 13, 2004, 11:57 PM
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there's the same chance of a sport route zippering as there is me being zippered on a sport route then on my way home to pick up my winning lottery ticket being struck by a form of alien lightning, the hospital nurse turning out to be carmen electra me shagging said nurse and then havin a live performance from elvis presly who came with the spaceship that fired the alien lightning,
in short it aint gonna happen
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crushingfinger
Jan 14, 2004, 12:00 AM
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Haven't had that problem Brian but good point I use a Twisted Sister locker made By Petzl .
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sticky_fingers
Jan 14, 2004, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: If there is enouph slack in the rope on the belay end and the climber falls the rope could whip just right causeing the draws to come of the hangers or the rope to come out of the draws.(Kinda the same idea as placing opposing pieces first on a trad climb)
Are you referring to "back-clipping"? If not, then I'm with the rest of the folks missing the point/benefit of using a locker on the first bolt...
where's the "HUH?" emoticon
oh well :?
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brianinslc
Jan 14, 2004, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: Haven't had that problem Brian but good point I use a Twisted Sister locker made By Petzl .
Or, maybe the one made by Stubai that used to be called the 3D? (!)
Good call, though, that should help, I'd think.
I'm pretty careful leading out from a bolt hanger with a locker on it...but...I do it pretty often. But, only on what would be a low impact fall on a slab route.
Brian in SLC
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ricardol
Jan 14, 2004, 12:16 AM
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this is almost as bad as a partner i once climbed with who a few times placed multiple draws on the first bolt of a sport climb .. "just in case" the rope came out of the first one ..
.. i dont thnk that you can zipper a sport route ..
-- ricardo
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hawgdrver
Jan 14, 2004, 12:21 AM
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coldclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 12:44 AM
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First off, I hate to say it, but this post reeks of misinformation. I've never ever heard of a sport route zippering. The chances are so small that they aren't even there. And the comment about a locker preventing groundfall because it's higher off the ground by a foot...???? :roll: Comparing this to a first trad piece is also false, because the first piece you place in trad is likely to zipper, not because it will come unclipped, but because it won't take an upward pull. Do trad climbers use lockers on the first piece?
I do have a trad draw made up with lockers in case I ever need one, but this was more for situations like belay anchors, not protection, unless other biners are likely to come unclipped somehow.
And the thing about not closing locks all the way! :shock: The biner isn't going to have bent and jammed the lock in a fall. And even if that were possible, it's much better to have that happen than to have it rub against the rock and unlock completely. Tighten those locks up! Unlike your zippering, this one is mentioned in several books I've read.
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dsafanda
Jan 14, 2004, 1:02 AM
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In reply to: might be more prudent to use a quickdraw, as it has the ability to orient itself correctly to the hanger with any movement of the climber and rope (more degrees of freedom).
Absolutely! Whatever few inches you make up for in terms of ground fall protection are significantly overshadowed by the increased chance of busting that locking biner like it was made of cheap plastic.
As for "zippering sport routes"; please point us to an account of this actually happening.
Sorry to say it but I think this one should definitely be filed under "Why you shouldn't get climbing instruction from internet forums".
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tommy_m
Jan 14, 2004, 1:37 AM
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a failure on either the first or second clip could result in a groundfall. my understanding has always been the first two clips should be draws with lockers on both ends because of their not being affected by gate flutter, which can unclip the rope and/or weaken the biner.
tommy
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furryfrisbee
Jan 14, 2004, 2:46 AM
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I knew I remembered seeing something about locking biners and sport climbing somewhere. I dug the books out and I found it! In "Advanced Rock Climbing" by John Long and Craig Luebben it states in Chapter 6, "Sport Climbing" under "Common Mistakes":
#8 Leader backclips a Quickdraw and the rope comes unclipped. Pay close attention to the run of the rope through the draws. Use locking biners on crucial placements.
I also found in "Clip and Go" by John Long and Duane Raleigh, in Chapter 11, "Climbing, Clipping and Lowering", under "High Bolt":
Certain climbs, usually ones with crux opening moves, have the first bolt intentionally set well off the deck. Here, break out your "cheater" stick and clip that sucker from the ground. When there's a chance the bolt - or any other bolt for that matter - might come unclipped, use locking biners, or clip the bolt and rope with two quickdraws (double clip).
Any other sources out there?
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jt512
Jan 14, 2004, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: If there is enouph slack in the rope on the belay end and the climber falls the rope could whip just right causeing the draws to come of the hangers or the rope to come out of the draws.
There is also a probability that all the molecules of air in my office will randomly end up in the corners of the room, causing me to suffocate, but I don't take precautions against it.
-Jay
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jt512
Jan 14, 2004, 3:19 AM
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In reply to: this is almost as bad as a partner i once climbed with who a few times placed multiple draws on the first bolt of a sport climb .. "just in case" the rope came out of the first one ..
That is something that I sometimes do when the fall would be disastrous, the usual case being a climb that starts off a ledge, but a fall, if the rope or the draw came unclipped, would be all the way to the ground.
-Jay
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bbziger
Jan 14, 2004, 4:28 AM
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In reply to: There is also a probability that all the molecules of air in my office will randomly end up in the corners of the room, causing me to suffocate...
I hate when that happens...
-BBB
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crushingfinger
Jan 14, 2004, 4:38 AM
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dsafanda, This is a tip that was given to me by world class climbers if you wish to say some thing about a post please read the post first. Zippering is very rare, I like'n it to trad just to give the word "zipper" a meaning for those people who, like your self, might be easily confused.
I thought that writing about this topic could open more ideas in how to address protecting the start of a climb better. Thanx for the tip on a fully lockered quick draw and to brian for the thought on gate failure and the need for the twisted style locker when useing only one locker on a bolt. By the way under the load of a big fall, lockers do get stressed to the point that they will not open. Don't belive me,? Wait till it happens to you . :lol: :lol:
Thanx again for the helpfull :) info.
Bryan
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diesel___smoke
Jan 14, 2004, 4:55 AM
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In reply to: By the way under the load of a big fall, lockers do get stressed to the point that they will not open. Don't belive me,? Wait till it happens to you.
This happens on big walls commonly, but I don't think it could happen during a fall. It occurs when a large load is placed on the carabiner, then the screwgate is cinched down again tighter by whoever for reassurance, and when the load is released it pushes the nose against the locking part of the gate, under stress. There are many ways to get them unstuck, clipping your harness to the carabiner, and pushing out against the wall and unscrewing the gate, but simply putting your weight on it usually does the trick without pushing out. You can also put the carabiner against the rock and use your hammer to hit the screwgate to loosen it.
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coldclimb
Jan 14, 2004, 5:46 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: By the way under the load of a big fall, lockers do get stressed to the point that they will not open. Don't belive me,? Wait till it happens to you. This happens on big walls commonly, but I don't think it could happen during a fall. It occurs when a large load is placed on the carabiner, then the screwgate is cinched down again tighter by whoever for reassurance, and when the load is released it pushes the nose against the locking part of the gate, under stress. There are many ways to get them unstuck, clipping your harness to the carabiner, and pushing out against the wall and unscrewing the gate, but simply putting your weight on it usually does the trick without pushing out. You can also put the carabiner against the rock and use your hammer to hit the screwgate to loosen it.
Diesel smoke presents a believable situation. Can't believe that a fall is gonna jam the biner though, unless, as in Diesel's example, the lock is tightened while weight is on the biner.
Anyone else want to back him up on this? Whether it happens or not, I'd like to know for sure, from a source that has more credibility for me, as I don't know crushingfinger. :?
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diesel___smoke
Jan 14, 2004, 6:12 AM
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In reply to: Whether it happens or not, I'd like to know for sure, from a source that has more credibility for me, as I don't know crushingfinger. :?
Crushingfinger has no credibility if you ask me, every once in a while he'll chime into the aid forum and do something like recommend a sport harness for big walls.
I do, however, assure you that locking carabiners do stick in the method I described above, some are more prone to it that others, I've noticed pear shaped seem to be the worst. You have to keep in mind though, that the situation I am describing we were applying a Static load of 1200-1300lbs or more to a single biner. The fractions of a second one would have for the screwgate to be tightened during a fall would make crushingfinger's claim pretty preposterous.
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fear
Jan 14, 2004, 6:55 AM
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Welll.... you've been beaten up over the bolted climb zippering thing so I won't giggle.
But if you really, really, really are scared of that first bolt then just use a locking-D Omega steel biner. Won't matter in the least if it's cross loaded or even plumb open for that matter.
-Fear
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tahquitztwo
Jan 14, 2004, 8:17 AM
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In reply to: I knew I remembered seeing something about locking biners and sport climbing somewhere. I dug the books out and I found it! In "Advanced Rock Climbing" by John Long and Craig Luebben it states in Chapter 6, "Sport Climbing" under "Common Mistakes": #8 Leader backclips a Quickdraw and the rope comes unclipped. Pay close attention to the run of the rope through the draws. Use locking biners on crucial placements. I also found in "Clip and Go" by John Long and Duane Raleigh, in Chapter 11, "Climbing, Clipping and Lowering", under "High Bolt": Certain climbs, usually ones with crux opening moves, have the first bolt intentionally set well off the deck. Here, break out your "cheater" stick and clip that sucker from the ground. When there's a chance the bolt - or any other bolt for that matter - might come unclipped, use locking biners, or clip the bolt and rope with two quickdraws (double clip). Any other sources out there?
Thanks for the source of the information....I knew it was out there somewhere intelligent :? because most of the people I climb with use lockers on critical crux bolts, especially on runout slab climbs (aren't they all? :shock: ). I now carry two to three with me when leading since some of the routes have first bolts 25-30 feet off the ground and I would like to stop if I come off before I hit terra firma and have a spare or two just in case there's something higher up I hadn't planned on.
I have also seen a situation (mine) where a change in planned direction started the non-locker quickdraw to rotate in such a way I was concerned that if I fell before the next bolt it might unclip itself....so I carefully downclimbed and double clipped it since at the time I didn't have enough lockers. BTW, my locker draws are lockers on both ends...the bolt may pull or break, but that dang rope is going to stay put! :?
Everyone climbs their own way.......I do however, still wonder about the zippering part????? :D :D
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crushingfinger
Jan 14, 2004, 9:21 AM
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As I said before, " I thought that writing about this topic could open up more IDEAS, on how to address protecting the start of a climb." Thank you FEAR and others, for shedding more light on the subject.
As far as the "other party" is concerned I belive I explained myself fairly well in the aid forum saying, that the pitches I aid are short. Who knows anyone here?:Very few. Credibility?!!? My thread here as well as many others you will see here on RC.com, are ideas that are put forth in a POSITIVE, manner. Putting down anyone is wrong; and attacking somones credibility, just makes people question your own. Be helpfull, other wise whats IS the point in all of this.
Thanks again for all the helpfull insite!!!
"One love, one hart,".......... BOB!
I think you know the rest.
Bryan
:D :wink:
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