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j_ung
Jan 15, 2004, 4:12 PM
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Here's an interesting question:
If I establish an R-rated trad route in an area with a primarily ground-up ethic, then decide later that I want to retro-actively add a single bolt to protect the R section, should I add that bolt ground-up, as if it were the FA, or can I do it on rappel?
(I also plan to solicit opinions from the local climbing community. Right now I'm interested in hearing from y'all.)
Please refrain from trashing others' opinions. Just give me yours.
j_ung
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tenn_dawg
Jan 15, 2004, 4:35 PM
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Lets say that on the first ascent you climbed through the "R" section, placed some pro, then lowered down from pro, and placed the bolt.
Is this acceptable? If so, then Rap bolting this short section should be no different.
In my personal opinion it's you're call, but ONLY if the local ethic is tolerant of bolts.
Travis
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taualum23
Jan 15, 2004, 4:37 PM
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I've gotta say that if the local ethics permit bolts at all, or more specifically any rap bolting, then as the FA, it's your call.
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j_ung
Jan 15, 2004, 4:41 PM
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The community tends to frown on rap bolting in general, but I can't recall this specific situation coming up. During recent rebolting efforts, to replce existing anchors, rap bolting was permitted.
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voriand
Jan 15, 2004, 4:44 PM
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I say rap down and add the bolt. R routes are totally uneccessary.
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thegreytradster
Jan 15, 2004, 4:50 PM
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Since you've already done the route, how you get to the bolt placement is your call. I'd strongly sugest that you place it from a natural stance though if maintaining the character of the area/climb is a goal.
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rockprodigy
Jan 15, 2004, 5:33 PM
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There will probably be people who won't like it if they found out you placed it on rappel. You need to decide how much you care about what others think.
As for me, I place 99.9% of my bolts on rappel.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 15, 2004, 6:00 PM
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If the route has already been established, no bolts should be added regardless of the danger, IN MY OPINION. Maybe since you're the FA it is your choice, but I don't think the route should be modified after the fact.
Jp
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j_ung
Jan 15, 2004, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: If the route has already been established, no bolts should be added regardless of the danger, IN MY OPINION. Maybe since you're the FA it is your choice, but I don't think the route should be modified after the fact. Jp
An angle I hadn't even considered until now. Thanks Jp.
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taualum23
Jan 15, 2004, 6:38 PM
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JP-
Really interesting viewpoint. So even in an area that's OK with Bolts, the FA shouldn't go retro? I'm not picking a fight here, I'm just curious about the reasons. For example, I know of situations where somebody fought their way through an area of r/x ground where pro wasn't an option, but there was not a good stance to put in a bolt, and completed the route. I don't see why the one with the FA is, in a sense, mandated to KEEP the route as an r/x, even against his/her wishes.
JK
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thegreytradster
Jan 15, 2004, 7:07 PM
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Diesel brings up a good point but it's one you can only answer for yourself.
Was the R section "the buisiness" and keeping your head together part of the exercise. Then adding a bolt would in some respects denigrate your own achivement.
If it's to protect an easier but dangerous section and you just didn't happen to have the bolt kit along on the FA, another situation completely.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 15, 2004, 7:09 PM
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Taualum/JK, I'll answer your question as soon as I get a little more information about the route... I'm not putting you off, just that a lot would depend on this question:
J_ung, has this route that you are refering to seen a second ascent by someone other than you, the FA?
Let me know and I'll explain my position in more detail,
Thanks,
Jp
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climbhigher
Jan 15, 2004, 7:16 PM
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I say it's up to you. But respect the locals and the tradition of the area. And I say whatever makes the route more of a quality route for others.
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j_ung
Jan 15, 2004, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: Taualum/JK, I'll answer your question as soon as I get a little more information about the route... I'm not putting you off, just that a lot would depend on this question: J_ung, has this route that you are refering to seen a second ascent by someone other than you, the FA? Let me know and I'll explain my position in more detail, Thanks, Jp
To my knowledge, no. No repeat yet. (Not that it's some crazy testpiece or anything. It's just that only a few people know about it.)
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piton
Jan 15, 2004, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: I say rap down and add the bolt. R routes are totally uneccessary.
have to disagree. R routes aren't all that bad
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crushingfinger
Jan 15, 2004, 10:17 PM
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This is your climb, Your vission, I commend you for putting up routes from the ground up. This questions anwser comes from within you, the red point has already happen the route is set; you choose how to fix the problem. I think if you want more people to climb the route then make it safe.
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okinawatricam
Jan 15, 2004, 10:38 PM
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It is your route, do what you want withn reason. To say that a route shouldn't be changed after it was climbed, even by the person who put it up is bogus.
Most hard routes in the country if not world were rappelled, top roped and reversed before they were bolted. By doing this, the person/people putting up the route can place the bolt(s) in the best possible location.
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socalbolter
Jan 15, 2004, 11:07 PM
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if you've already decided to add the bolt (sounds like you have), then i would expect that the way in which it's installed would be a moot point.
it would probably be a little more sporting and exciting to somewhat recreate the FA by installing the new bolt on lead, but this would be more for your own enjoyment than to match some arbitrary "rule."
if the local rule is in fact ground-up, you met that challenge when you first established the route. now i would think the question at hand would be entirely up to you.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 15, 2004, 11:48 PM
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In reply to: ...It is your route...
I'd say it's his route UNTIL it sees a second ascent, then I believe it becomes 'communal property'. You'll change the entire 'flavor' of the climb if you add that bolt, but you're the FA, and it's not seen a second ascent so I'd say it's your call. BUT - I'd like to see the route stay the same as it was put up, and there is a huge tradition in that.
Okinawatricam, if you expressed your opinion on an established route in Yosemite, you would be ridden out of the Valley on a rail and possibly extreme hostility from the locals. I believe it was Mark Chapman (FA of many grade VI's) who sucker punched someone in the valley for expressing an opinion much like your's Okina.
J_ung,
Why do you feel this bolt is necessary?
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climbhigher
Jan 16, 2004, 12:38 AM
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What's the chances of somebody getting hurt if they fall without the bolt. Will they hit anything? Is the fall clean? How hard is it in that spot compare to the rest of the climb? How many bolts are already on the climb? Will the climber get hurt or will they die if they fall on the route?
I retrobolted one of My F.A.'s. Because we agreed that the bolt added quality to the route and we didn't want a "X" rated climb, plus it was a continutation of another route and wanted to keep it in same character of the route below it. It was the first bolt i have ever hand drilled in Granite and we called it Penatration. I think the rating is something like 5.10bish. with the face climbing the crux. It's a good route. No published guide book.
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sharpender
Jan 16, 2004, 1:22 AM
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First of all I agree with pitons response to voriand.
How to add the bolt to your route is an interesting question and one to be dealt with in the main by you. While I respect greytradsters opinon that the business and head together experience of the climb needs to be honored, it is also good climbing practice to protect the crux of a climb. You need to decide if your ethic requires the bolt to be placed on the lead. If it's a trad route it should be in a place where it would have been drilled on lead if you could have. In other words, it should not be placed where a one hand hold stance is necessary to clip the bolt. The reason is simple. In traditional leading it is impossible to drill a bolt with one hand. One hand clapping and all that. So if you rap and place a bolt in a one hand hold clip stance, you will have changed your route from a trad lead to a sport climb. Do you want to do that?
A former partner of mine put up a trad route in a trad area years ago and skipped drilling the last bolt because it was dark when he finished the climb. He went back in a day or two and drilled this bolt from a rap line. A passerby saw this and accussed him of sport bolting - a no no in the area. The route stands to this day as a trad climb and save for that one bolt all were drilled on the lead.
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climbhigher
Jan 16, 2004, 9:38 PM
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Sharpender, Do you consider the bolted routes in the South Platte Sport Routes?
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funkness
Jan 16, 2004, 10:49 PM
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IMHO you should leave it as it is. Why botch a bold lead? If others are not up to leading, then let them toprope it.
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yosemite
Jan 16, 2004, 11:38 PM
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WTFC?
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