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styndall
Jan 20, 2004, 5:47 AM
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In reply to: ethicially raping is excepted every were you go
That's an unfortunate set of typos. Forgive the pedantry, but raping, as a typo, is not one of those things that will go unnoticed.
.......
ethically
rapping
accepted
everywhere
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mrme
Jan 20, 2004, 5:49 AM
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stone mountian i think would fall into the rap only too though i don't know if you would call it a true sport area even though almost all the routes are bolted.
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mrme
Jan 20, 2004, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ethicially raping is excepted every were you go That's an unfortunate set of typos. Forgive the pedantry, but raping, as a typo, is not one of those things that will go unnoticed. ....... ethically rapping accepted everywhere
yea well i am a selfish typer :evil: thats so funny i can't spell and am to lazey to hit spell check for apernt reasons all the typos....lol :lol: :lol: :lol: :D i was waiting for someone to notice and it only took :shock: over 225 post :oops:
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mrme
Jan 20, 2004, 5:55 AM
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to top it off i even know how to spell rapping i just hardly ever do when i type it as for the other words ...... i think i have no clue and my grammer suck @ss.
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itakealot
Jan 20, 2004, 7:01 AM
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What would happen to climbing if the Ethics debates just evaporated?
I like the local climber analogy. When ever I go to another crag out of socal I never ever TR off the shuts and try to rap the line, but locally the route setters have told me it is OK to TR on their shuts.
Just think of being courteous to others when you are not at your local crag, sorta like wiping your a$$, you really don't have to, but the people around you would appreciate it.
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johnfromohio
Jan 20, 2004, 5:47 PM
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one question though, when collecting your quickdraws on the way down while rapping what happens if you make a mistake and let the rap line go. I mean if you are redpointing a climb at or above your limit you may not be totally functioning after the climb.
So if you just climbed your genialities off should you rap down and collect your draws. Because more than likely your belayer wont be able to follow and collect them but i guess it depends on who your belayer is.
Also I was at summersville this summer and I did not see anyone rap off the route (not sayin this is correct). Actually on an overhanging route how are you supposed to collect the draws if you rap down.
In a couple of books I have read I have seen nothing mentioned of rapelling off a route but instead of showing how to lower off an overhanging route to collect your draws.
Well lets get the responses to this question.
Not saying which is right or wrong but I am just curious on how to collect the draws if your rapping.
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tweek
Jan 20, 2004, 6:06 PM
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A definition of cold shunts please. I know Quick links, I know Fish Mussyhooks (which are sweet!), and I know chains.
Are cold shunts
a) Those section of chains which are made into a chain with a smash from a hammer (i.e. smash links)
b) something else
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climbersoze
Jan 20, 2004, 6:22 PM
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Check link for cold shut example... commonly used for anchors at the top of a climb.
http://hardware.everything-warehouse.com/PID-QZrse4/Columbus-McKinnon-1-4-Cold-Shut/
notice the 800 lb working load limit on this model... this is just the first one I found when doing a google search... I wouldn't trust one... if anything I would equalize and rap or lower off a biner on a sling, and since it is a cold shut, I would work on my technique at flipping my anchor out of it so I dont leave gear behind ;)
Think about this... a cold shut is a BENT piece of wire... it had to be BENT to get its current form... which means it has been weakened.... and a 1/4 inch cold shut holds 800 lbs... bad ju ju IMO.
Just to go one step further... I steer clear from homemade cold shuts.
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tweek
Jan 20, 2004, 6:38 PM
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Since those are cold shunts the anchors were infact smash links connected to bolt hangers that the people were Top roping off of in the original post.
How does this change everyones view as to safety/ ethics of toproping off of them?
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justincoyle
Jan 20, 2004, 6:53 PM
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http://www.safeclimbing.com/blind_faith.html
This is about cold shuts used as hangers, but it is still something to think about.
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rvega
Jan 20, 2004, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Saw some guys belaying straight though the cold shuts at Pinnacles this weekend. We were on Feed the Beast and they were on Cantaloupe Death (called that for a reason) a 5.10b and taking hard falls. I've never seen someone actually do this, although I've heard of this. Doesn't seem safe at all. What do you think of this and should we have said something? Hard falls on toprope? That's sort of a contradiction, isn't it? TRing thru closed shuts is not a safety issue, unless the shuts are badly worn. In many, if not most, areas TRing through shuts is frowned upon because it creates wear on the shuts, not because it is unsafe. -Jay
Well this climb is quite unusual in that you don't start on the ground. You stretch across a ten foot gap from another rock, clip the first bolt, grap the rock and drop your feet hopefully handing on long enough to get your feet on the wall. Then you try to get up the jugs (its very overhung) and people often dyno to the hold. As far as TRing goes these are very big hard falls.
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voriand
Jan 20, 2004, 7:10 PM
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Oh I wish all sport climbs had mussyhooks at the top. Makes lowering or rappeing down at the end of the climb so nice.
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ricardol
Jan 20, 2004, 7:31 PM
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the original topic of this post was about TR through the cold shuts at Pinnacles National Monument (wasn't it?) ..
.. at pinnacles the ethic is to LOWER from open cold shuts ..
so why are we still arguing abuot lowering from cold shuts? --
-- ricardo
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rvega
Jan 20, 2004, 8:16 PM
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In reply to: the original topic of this post was about TR through the cold shuts at Pinnacles National Monument (wasn't it?) .. .. at pinnacles the ethic is to LOWER from open cold shuts .. so why are we still arguing abuot lowering from cold shuts? -- -- ricardo
Alrighty then. No TRing on cold shuts at Pinnacles. Question answered and argument over! Next time I see someone do it I'll let them know about the PNM ethic. :wink:
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mrme
Jan 20, 2004, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: one question though, when collecting your quickdraws on the way down while rapping what happens if you make a mistake and let the rap line go. I mean if you are redpointing a climb at or above your limit you may not be totally functioning after the climb. So if you just climbed your genialities off should you rap down and collect your draws. Because more than likely your belayer wont be able to follow and collect them but i guess it depends on who your belayer is. Also I was at summersville this summer and I did not see anyone rap off the route (not sayin this is correct). Actually on an overhanging route how are you supposed to collect the draws if you rap down. In a couple of books I have read I have seen nothing mentioned of rapelling off a route but instead of showing how to lower off an overhanging route to collect your draws. Well lets get the responses to this question. Not saying which is right or wrong but I am just curious on how to collect the draws if your rapping.
answere one you ever here of a firmans belley and if so have you ever heard of backing up a rapel it is doable if you want to do it and are not comfortable not haveing a back up.
either the secound cleans it ...you reclimb and clean it then rapel or level the gear you can not recover if your using a rap only ethic...plus you can use some of the same techniques for cleaning while lowering as you do when you clean and rappel.
and like i said when i started climbing the majority of people raped at new river including summersville...it was only in the last year or two that this changed with more people visiting the area. i remember going to summersville and climbing all the routs there with no one else around. and on holiday weekends you might see another 4 groups of climbers there. plus i rap when i am there and i clean a route.
and as for the book i am not sure wich one your reading and lowereing off 'sport climbs' is growing more acceptable with the mass majoritty of people and areas...but that still does not give someone a right to go to anothers area and do it that way. you should treat others areas with respect and i think you should respect your own area too.
oh yea and if you must figure out a way to get those draws take the time to drag a seperate rappel line with you rappel to ground anchor the other rope ascend rope with ascenders while cleaning route and then make a repal agian.
i used to lower and tr of shuts .... i will not do this agian and i never did it in someone elses area to begin with, but there is a point when every one else is doing it you accept it well when i seen the majority of people doing it at summersville and the number of people increase there and how rappidly the new shuts that were placed there are wearing down i said enough is enough for me i will not be like the majority i will do my part in solving the problem....i am not saying rapping is for everyone i am saying it is for me because i have seen and experince first hand what it does to an area i use. and ethicially rapping is a better choice because i am trying to perserve something for others use and it is still safer to do.
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mrme
Jan 20, 2004, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: A definition of cold shunts please. I know Quick links, I know Fish Mussyhooks (which are sweet!), and I know chains. Are cold shunts a) Those section of chains which are made into a chain with a smash from a hammer (i.e. smash links) b) something else
as the way this thread is using the term it is all the above.
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mrme
Jan 20, 2004, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: the original topic of this post was about TR through the cold shuts at Pinnacles National Monument (wasn't it?) .. .. at pinnacles the ethic is to LOWER from open cold shuts .. so why are we still arguing abuot lowering from cold shuts? -- -- ricardo
read the third and forth post...the forth post being a reply to ricardol who wrote the third post .... i was just reminding him that rapping is better than lowering .like he sujested, that the original poster should have informed the people that were tr threw the shuts. i was just suggesting that he should rap instead of lower.
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mrme
Jan 20, 2004, 8:37 PM
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so i have been getting people who don't want to admit that there way of doing stuff is always more damaging and not as ethicial....wich it is not ethicial in some areas. man an i am just trying to let them know that for there own benifit if they go to an area were it wasn't exceptable.
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jt512
Jan 20, 2004, 8:41 PM
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In reply to: answere one you ever here of a firmans belley
I realize that the internet is an international forum, but for the sake of communication we should post in a common language. Most of us use English. Perhaps you should, too.
-Jay
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coylec
Jan 20, 2004, 8:54 PM
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Here's a hypothetical -- I don't know the number for the route in question.
TR setup. Cold Shuts are 50 feet up. Climber is 40 feet up the climb (meaning there is 10 ft of rope to anchor and 50 feet to belayer, 60 ft total). Takes that dyno refered to, jumping up 5 feet. Poor soul misses the jug and falls. 5 ft fall on 60 feet of rope. Fall factor: .0833. The rope involved has a 8 kn impact force (again, i don't know, but its a common number).
According to Fall Forces Calculator (http://www.frydrych.uklinux.net/tomas/fall_force)
Its a shock force of 2.51kn, belayer force of 1.66kn, and force on the anchor of 4.17kn.
4.17kn on the Anchor means that is approximately (224 lbs = 1kn) 934.08 lbs of force on the anchor. Becuase of the angles involved (American "death" Triangle), each shut bears approximately this weight. Earlier posts have already said, I'll say it again: Cold Shuts are construction parts. They are rated approximately 800 lbs. These "hard falls" on TR exceed the capacity of the shut and could break it.
Lowering is another game. Since there is no "fall" involved, there is no dynamic loading of the anchor. This means that the shut bears the weight of the lowered party. This is why we all should have learned that lowering should be (1) slow, (2) smooth and (3) you shouldn't bounce around. Lowering at light speed and halting inches from the ground stresses the anchor more than slow and controlled lowering.
Conclusion: TR on cold shuts is a bad idea because of the fall forces generated by "hard" TR falls (the result of slack in system, barely conscious belayers and dynos).
Open shuts provide another problem, one that hasn't been stated yet: it is theoretically possible for the rope to come off. Its an open system and the rope could pop out. While this is UNLIKELY, it is not impossible. When you toprope on a setup anchor, you use lockers because it is POSSIBLE for a standard biner to open. I personally don't like the idea of 2 inches or less of vertical metal being the only thing connecting me to an anchor. Would you clip a fifi hook to an anchor and use it to hold a rope for TR? Because I'll bet it can hold more weight than a cold shut.
coylec
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styndall
Jan 20, 2004, 9:43 PM
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In reply to: and like i said when i started climbing the majority of people raped at new river including summersville.
Please. RAPPED. It's very different.
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