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climbfrog
Jan 30, 2004, 6:58 AM
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I believe, if not mistaken, she's made various attempts to free the roof. The gear was just left over from the previous attempts.
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sbclimber
Jan 30, 2004, 7:54 AM
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wow, 6 pages in one day! that's gotta be some kind of record.
And here I am contributing to it. Joe sounds like a moron (had to get that out)
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dfirsty
Jan 30, 2004, 8:22 AM
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Hey everyone, lets not forget that curt is the greatest climber in the world....just ask him......or look at his profile.
Someone was asking a legitimate question about climbing, not what curt knows.
Curt....If someone asks a question that you don't like do us all a favor and don't respond. Instead you can think of people that you know and add them to your profile. :D
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pupjr
Jan 30, 2004, 9:32 AM
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HA! this page got hijacked about jtree bolting ethics. there ya go noodlearms, the flamming of you is now over.... for now. I'll try to get the flames re-directed back to you. Did your question ever get answered?
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rmiller
Jan 30, 2004, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: No, I consider them bolted climbs. The ones where I use gear in addition to the bolts, "I" would also consider a bolted climb. However, I would feel just fine if someone called it a trad climb or mixed climb. My point is that to be considered a "trad" climb, trad gear must be placed. Bolting while using hooks does not make a climb trad. Trad gear makes a climb trad. If your arguement is that the use of hooks makes the climb trad, even though the only pro is bolts, I disagree. Maybe the climb should really be called an aid climb with free climbing in between. Ronnie OK. I see where you are coming from now. I have to tell you that you are in the minority in that opinion though. Most of us old-fart climbers would consider climbs in Toulumne like Bachar-Yerian, for example, or any of the bolted routes in the Needles (of South Dakota) that are "bolts only" to be trad climbs. Curt Sounds good. I guess its all semantics? Thanks for listening. I just hope others can listen and hold onto their beliefs without attacking others. It just doesn't seem to be happening here. Ronnie
I did not mean between us, I was talking about this website in general.
Ronnie
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rmiller
Jan 30, 2004, 3:27 PM
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In reply to: Ronnie, In reply to: My belief, as has been stated, is that a trad climb is only a trad climb when trad gear is placed for protection. Ronnie I think I acknowledged in my post above that I now understand this to be your definition of a trad route. However, again, you are certainly in the minority (at least among us old climbing fossils, such as myself) by using this definition. And, I consider this discussion we have been having as a civil debate. I certainly am not trying to attack you personally. By the way, Mike Reardon tells me you are somebody that I should look up and climb with, now that you live in Arizona. I'm up for that if you are. 8) Curt
I did not mean we were attacking each other, I was talking about how it seems this website in general is more focused on attacking than debating. Not everyone of course, but quite a few.
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 3:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ronnie, In reply to: And one more thing. I am quite sure I will live. I thrive on long, runout bolted climbs. In fact, it is one of my favorite styles of climbing! Dome Rock has some great 5.11 and 5.12 runout climbs too. Believe me, I applaud you in that. But, do you call those routes sport climbs? Curt No, I consider them bolted climbs. The ones where I use gear in addition to the bolts, "I" would also consider a bolted climb. However, I would feel just fine if someone called it a trad climb or mixed climb. My point is that to be considered a "trad" climb, trad gear must be placed.
But bolts are trad gear. Placing bolts on lead with a hand drill is a traditional climbing technique. The result can be either be a sport climb or a trad climb, depending on the FAist's intent. If the bolting was the minimum needed to protect the leader, leaving long, dangerous runouts, the route is a trad route. On the other hand, if the bolts were placed with the purpose of allowing future climbers to enjoy the difficulty of the moves without being unduly concerned about the consequences of the fall, then the route is a sport route. As Kalcario noted, there are many ground-up sport routes like this at Owens.
-Jay
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rmiller
Jan 30, 2004, 3:56 PM
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I hear where you and Curt are coming from, but I consider those type of climbs bolted climbs. Just different labeling.
Ronnie
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sticky_fingers
Jan 30, 2004, 4:26 PM
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Boy, for a bunch of people who attack those for not doing research, you guys sure don't take your own advice (which therefore means you're hypocritical, which then makes you lame). This is the definition of trad TAKEN FROM THIS SITE,
"Traditional/ trad / trad climbing - n/adj Climbing that emphasizes longer routes and removable protection."
I don't know about some of you old-fart climbers (Curt?) but the last time I climbed trad, I didn't bring bolts with me, only to have my second remove them.
hema said it best (which also reflects the definition on this site....but I guess it just takes too much time/effort to look it up :roll: ),
"Mixed Climbing - adj. Refers to a route with both rock and ice sections. May also refer to a route with both sport and trad sections."
Under this definition, the Nose is mixed.
Think twice before you people flame somebody for not doing their homework. Just because you might have climbed for a long time, doesn't make you an authority....
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: Boy, for a bunch of people who attack those for not doing research, you guys sure don't take your own advice (which therefore means you're hypocritical, which then makes you lame). This is the definition of trad TAKEN FROM THIS SITE, "Traditional/ trad / trad climbing - n/adj Climbing that emphasizes longer routes and removable protection." I don't know about some of you old-fart climbers (Curt?) but the last time I climbed trad, I didn't bring bolts with me, only to have my second remove them. hema said it best (which also reflects the definition on this site....but I guess it just takes too much time/effort to look it up :roll: ), "Mixed Climbing - adj. Refers to a route with both rock and ice sections. May also refer to a route with both sport and trad sections." Under this definition, the Nose is mixed. Think twice before you people flame somebody for not doing their homework. Just because you might have climbed for a long time, doesn't make you an authority....
While "Trad" may empahsize longer routes and removable gear, there ARE (as both jt512 and I have stated) many, many "bolts only" Trad climbs. So, the definition is OK, but hardly completely accurate.
You may not take bolts with you when you go trad climbing, but all those guys who bolted the face climbs on the 10 pins in the Needles of South Dakota did. And, you won't find any of these routes to be "Sport" climbs.
So, the bolt vs. removable gear determination of whether a climb is trad v. sport, really isn't the best one.
Curt
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tradman
Jan 30, 2004, 5:24 PM
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So what is the best one then?
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: Hey everyone, lets not forget that curt is the greatest climber in the world....just ask him......or look at his profile. Someone was asking a legitimate question about climbing, not what curt knows. Curt....If someone asks a question that you don't like do us all a favor and don't respond. Instead you can think of people that you know and add them to your profile. :D
Hey, thanks for your very valuable contribution to this thread too. At least I don't post anonymously. You can take what's in my bio anyway you like--there's nothing untrue in there.
Curt
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: So what is the best one then?
I think I like this one that jt512 posted in another thread.
In reply to: There are only two requirements for a route to be a sport route: One, the pro must be all bolts, and two, the bolts must be placed so that the leader can concentrate on working difficult moves without undue concern about serious risk. Whether the route was established ground up or top down is irrelevant. Most modern sport routes are bolted on rappel, but that is not a requirement.
Curt
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rockprodigy
Jan 30, 2004, 5:55 PM
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In reply to: the definition of trad TAKEN FROM THIS SITE,
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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sticky_fingers
Jan 30, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: So what is the best one then? I think I like this one that jt512 posted in another thread. In reply to: There are only two requirements for a route to be a sport route: One, the pro must be all bolts, and two, the bolts must be placed so that the leader can concentrate on working difficult moves without undue concern about serious risk. Whether the route was established ground up or top down is irrelevant. Most modern sport routes are bolted on rappel, but that is not a requirement. Curt
What if you have one pitch of a trad route that meets jt512's definition of sport? Is the route mixed or trad? (I think we all agree it wouldn't be considered sport. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original argument was not whether one sport pitch on a trad route makes the climb a sport climb, but rather can the climb still be called trad if it has one pitch that meets "a" sport criteria?)
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deleted
Deleted
Jan 30, 2004, 6:14 PM
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back to the topic
no one has repeated lynn hill's feat, but it is not because it is unrepeatable... Certainly, there are climbers out there who can free the nose, but it's like, why? If you can climb at that level, why repeat something like the nose? Hill's ascent was essentially the best style you can do...there's nothing left to do...it's a finished work.
There are many, many projects on El Cap. People who want to free a wall usually do freerider to get the feel for what it's like to free climb a big wall. Then, when they've got their logistics wired, they go and do try their own projects.
Anybody who doesn't understand why no one would want to do another free ascent of the nose has most likely never done a first ascent, or climbed a climb whose name and grade you don't know--someone who is basically a bolt-clipping peak bagger. This type of person typically lacks an understanding, and therefore, true love of climbing...the person who is destined to repeat routes well below their limit and never seek something new or do something useful with their lives. Don't feel bad, if you think this applies to you, as it probably does...most people on this website are like this.
Hill's ascent is sacred, and it is generally understood among climbers who have respect that it will be kept this way. Go ahead, climb the nose free in a day...if you can, and see the reaction of those who know.
now, about the gear...the nose is littered with gear...
what i want to know is...has anybody heard/complained about the bolts the huber's put in on zodiac...this is unconfirmed, but it is my suspicion that they put some bolts in on the pitch before the nipple...have they said anything about this?
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sticky_fingers
Jan 30, 2004, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: back to the topic
wha-?
I thought part of the topic (2-parter) WAS about the difference in how the Nose is classified.
In reply to: no one has repeated lynn hill's feat, but it is not because it is unrepeatable... Certainly, there are climbers out there who can free the nose, but it's like, why?
There are? I'd be damn willingly to put some of my money up to see somebody else do it Lynn's way, but then again, if someone's motivation to climb is money, that's a crummy motivation. Maybe if they like to climb for personal reasons.....
In reply to: If you can climb at that level, why repeat something like the nose?
Hey, personal gratification would be a good reason :)
why run a marathon? why do an adventure race? why be sent up into space...surely someone's been there/done that before you
In reply to: Hill's ascent was essentially the best style you can do...there's nothing left to do...it's a finished work.
Yes, and I'm sure once the first party did the Nose, nobody ever wanted to try and improve on it. Sometimes people repeat climbs so a consensus grade can be given. :wink:
In reply to: This type of person typically lacks an understanding, and therefore, true love of climbing...the person who is destined to repeat routes well below their limit and never seek something new or do something useful with their lives.
What about the elite climber trying to repeat another elite climber's route? An example that come to mind is Graham trying to repeat Realization. Graham's not destined to repeat routes, but what about people repeating routes at their limit for personal gratification?
Maybe I'm missing the point of your post...
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deleted
Deleted
Jan 30, 2004, 6:31 PM
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[quote:6a404fb182="sticky_fingers"]
Maybe I'm missing the point of your post...[/quote:6a404fb182]
see my post above...and read the part about people who don't understand...sorry
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: So what is the best one then? I think I like this one that jt512 posted in another thread. In reply to: There are only two requirements for a route to be a sport route: One, the pro must be all bolts, and two, the bolts must be placed so that the leader can concentrate on working difficult moves without undue concern about serious risk. Whether the route was established ground up or top down is irrelevant. Most modern sport routes are bolted on rappel, but that is not a requirement. Curt What if you have one pitch of a trad route that meets jt512's definition of sport? Is the route mixed or trad? (I think we all agree it wouldn't be considered sport. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original argument was not whether one sport pitch on a trad route makes the climb a sport climb, but rather can the climb still be called trad if it has one pitch that meets "a" sport criteria?)
Well, the original "question" was -
In reply to: The Nose is described here as a "traditional gear" route. www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listSection.php But from the pictures on Lynn Hill's website, it looks like she's sport climbing... redpointing or pinkpointing. She couldn't have been placing her own gear, trad style... right? (If so, hopefully some mod will move this post....)
No definition will ever be perfect and there will be "gray areas" for sure. The best example I can think of a route like you describe:
In reply to: What if you have one pitch of a trad route that meets jt512's definition of sport? Is the route mixed or trad?
Curt
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jv
Jan 30, 2004, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: What if you have one pitch of a trad route that meets jt512's definition of sport? Is the route mixed or trad? (I think we all agree it wouldn't be considered sport. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original argument was not whether one sport pitch on a trad route makes the climb a sport climb, but rather can the climb still be called trad if it has one pitch that meets "a" sport criteria?)
This is interesting. I think that the lines blur in these situations, like defining pornography. ("I know it when I see it.") But it's instructive to compare some climbs that blur the lines.
On Pywiack is a route called Piece of Grass, a full pitch (from the tree in the hole) of hard face climbing protected by four bolts drilled by hand on lead. It is a trad climb. To the right is Needle Spoon, put up in the same way. Needle Spoon is listed in the Sport Route section in the back of the guide because it is bolted in a way to allow the climber to focus on the difficulty of the moves, not the consequences of a fall. Both can be climbed with a rack of draws.
Compare Bachar-Yerian to Shipoopi to its right. Very similar climbing (I am told), but one is world famous and coveted because it is run out, and the other is just another well-bolted route on Medlicott.
Compare Cryin' Time Again to Big Boys Don't Cry. Very similar in nature: they parallel each other in almost every way except the bolt spacing.
Anyway, the point is that you can't draw a bright line between bolts and gear. That dog won't hunt.
JV
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: Boy, for a bunch of people who attack those for not doing research, you guys sure don't take your own advice (which therefore means you're hypocritical, which then makes you lame). This is the definition of trad TAKEN FROM THIS SITE, "Traditional/ trad / trad climbing - n/adj Climbing that emphasizes longer routes and removable protection."
Emphasizes, not requires.
In reply to: hema said it best (which also reflects the definition on this site....but I guess it just takes too much time/effort to look it up :roll: ), "Mixed Climbing - adj. Refers to a route with both rock and ice sections. May also refer to a route with both sport and trad sections." Under this definition, the Nose is mixed.
Calling the Nose a sport route, or even partly a sport route, is just about the most ignorant thing I've ever read on this website.
In reply to: Think twice before you people flame somebody for not doing their homework. Just because you might have climbed for a long time, doesn't make you an authority....
Think twice before you post. You are making a complete fool out of yourself.
-Jay
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 7:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: So what is the best one then? I think I like this one that jt512 posted in another thread. In reply to: There are only two requirements for a route to be a sport route: One, the pro must be all bolts, and two, the bolts must be placed so that the leader can concentrate on working difficult moves without undue concern about serious risk. Whether the route was established ground up or top down is irrelevant. Most modern sport routes are bolted on rappel, but that is not a requirement. Curt What if you have one pitch of a trad route that meets jt512's definition of sport? Is the route mixed or trad? (I think we all agree it wouldn't be considered sport. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original argument was not whether one sport pitch on a trad route makes the climb a sport climb, but rather can the climb still be called trad if it has one pitch that meets "a" sport criteria?)
I think your question is pretty hypothetical. My definition of sport routes, which I've at other times spelled out better than I did here, referes in part to the FAist's purpose in bolting the route. If he bolted it so that future climbers could enjoy the moves without worrying unduly about the consequences of a fall, then it's a sport route; otherwise, it isn't. I don't know of any otherwise-trad routes in which individual pitches were bolted for sport climbing purposes. Who's going to climb one or more trad pitch to establish or repeat a sport climb? Maybe such a sport climb exists somewhere, but it's gotta be a rarity.
More simply, I don't think you can have a sport pitch on a multi-pitch trad route. If there is a trad pitch on the route, then the route is a trad route.
However, I suppose that you could have trad pitches above legitimate sport pitches. Conceivably, you could have, say, a 3-pitch sport climb, with additional trad pitches above. You could consider the first 3 pitches to be a sport climb in its own right, but the entire route would be a trad climb.
-Jay
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sticky_fingers
Jan 30, 2004, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: Calling the Nose a sport route, or even partly a sport route, is just about the most ignorant thing I've ever read on this website.
jt512, as a moderator, you are someone who can make serious contributions to the website and have more of a voice than a non-moderator. Therefore, it is your duty to update the definition for sport/trad/mixed if you think it is in error so this type of flaming doesn't happen again. I'M only doing what people b!tch at all the time for NOT doing; I researched this site for info, and because no other moderator bothered to better define the "gray areas", I went with what should be the agreed upon definitions. It's a catch-22; if I don't go with what's on this site, I'll get yelled at. If I do, I get called ignorant. Where's the sense of community in that???
In reply to: Think twice before you post. You are making a complete fool out of yourself.
How? By calling people on their definitions of something? I thought that was called a healthy (intellectual?) debate. How did you get to be the authority?
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sticky_fingers
Jan 30, 2004, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: Conceivably, you could have, say, a 3-pitch sport climb, with additional trad pitches above. You could consider the first 3 pitches to be a sport climb in its own right, but the entire route would be a trad climb.
Why wouldn't that be considered a mixed climbed?
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Calling the Nose a sport route, or even partly a sport route, is just about the most ignorant thing I've ever read on this website. jt512, as a moderator, you are someone who can make serious contributions to the website and have more of a voice than a non-moderator. Therefore, it is your duty to update the definition for sport/trad/mixed if you think it is in error so this type of flaming doesn't happen again.
My duties as a volunteer minor Moderator are limited in socpe and do not include maintenance of the glossary. You'll have to take your concerns up with Trevor. Note that you might have to ante up $20 for him to listen.
In reply to: I'M only doing what people b!tch at all the time for NOT doing; I researched this site for info, and because no other moderator bothered to better define the "gray areas", I went with what should be the agreed upon definitions. It's a catch-22; if I don't go with what's on this site, I'll get yelled at. If I do, I get called ignorant. Where's the sense of community in that???
Quit whining. Why would you consider the glossary on this website to be the final word?
In reply to: In reply to: Think twice before you post. You are making a complete fool out of yourself. How? By calling people on their definitions of something?
No, by calling the most famous and difficult trad line in the world a sport route.
-Jay
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