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climbsomething
Jan 30, 2004, 9:02 PM
Post #101 of 134
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In reply to: Under this definition, the Nose is mixed.
In reply to: This is the definition of trad TAKEN FROM THIS SITE,
The RC.com Award for Achievements in Gumbydom
http://hillarydavis.com/.../more/gumbyrccom.jpg
Congrats!!
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 9:29 PM
Post #102 of 134
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In reply to: Anybody who doesn't understand why no one would want to do another free ascent of the nose has most likely never done a first ascent, or climbed a climb whose name and grade you don't know--someone who is basically a bolt-clipping peak bagger. This type of person typically lacks an understanding, and therefore, true love of climbing...the person who is destined to repeat routes well below their limit and never seek something new or do something useful with their lives. Don't feel bad, if you think this applies to you, as it probably does...most people on this website are like this.
Oh my. What an astounding string of unfounded generalizations and condescension. Followed by "but don't feel bad!" Incredible.
This is what I'm coming to hate about this site.
I found a new sport, loved it, then found this website full of people who love it too. But in every 2nd thread there is someone like you telling me why I should feel bad about it, because I don't do it like you do it.
I don't need to know everything about trad climbing, or first ascent, or whatever other kind of climbing, to know this attitude is bullsh*t. But I'm done wasting my time fighting you types. Most of you just seem to want to feel superior.
Funny... all the climbers I meet in real life are awesome people.
Anyway mandrew... don't feel bad. ;-) This little rant of mine has been prompted by my entire experience here at RC.com, not just your post.
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sticky_fingers
Jan 30, 2004, 9:32 PM
Post #103 of 134
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In reply to: Quit whining. Why would you consider the glossary on this website to be the final word?
I'm not whining. All I'm saying is there are people who get yelled at for not researching posts before posting, not using the glossary, etc, and when I did, I was called on it. I don't think it would be too hard for the entire international climbing community to come up with an agreed definition of what trad/sport/mixed means.
In reply to: No, by calling the most famous and difficult trad line in the world a sport route.
I'm not calling it (entirely) a sport route. I've never said by placing removable gear on any climb it's somehow entirely a sport route. I do however feel that if there is any fixed pro on a route (that is in good enough condition to be used in case of a fall on it), it's not entirely trad. Since you disagree with calling the Nose a mixed climb, how would you define a mixed climb?
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 9:35 PM
Post #104 of 134
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In reply to: In reply to: Conceivably, you could have, say, a 3-pitch sport climb, with additional trad pitches above. You could consider the first 3 pitches to be a sport climb in its own right, but the entire route would be a trad climb. Why wouldn't that be considered a mixed climbed?
Because there is no such thing as a "mixed" sport and trad route. Mixed formally, if you will, means ice + rock; informally, it may mean bolts + gear, but it never means sport + trad. Because, as we've been saying, bolts don't define a sport route. If there are bolts on an otherwise trad route, it's a trad route.
-Jay
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 9:40 PM
Post #105 of 134
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In reply to: I do however feel that if there is any fixed pro on a route (that is in good enough condition to be used in case of a fall on it), it's not entirely trad.
And you're wrong. The definition of "trad" has been around a lot longer than you've been in the sport. Believing that a trad route with fixed pro has more in common with sport climbing than with trad climbing reveals that you fundmentally don't understand either type of climbing.
-Jay
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 9:42 PM
Post #106 of 134
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Seems like the Nose has religious significance to some here, and you can't ask questions about it.
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 9:48 PM
Post #107 of 134
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In reply to: Seems like the Nose has religious significance to some here, and you can't ask questions about it.
Actually, the most amazing thing about this thread is that you asked a question that you admittedly did not know the answer to. Then, after those of us who know the answer post it here--you want to argue about it.
Hilarious.
Curt
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sticky_fingers
Jan 30, 2004, 9:55 PM
Post #108 of 134
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In reply to: Because there is no such thing as a "mixed" sport and trad route. Mixed formally, if you will, means ice + rock;
ok, I agree with you on that. That's the definition I first knew it by.
In reply to: informally, it may mean bolts + gear, but it never means sport + trad. Because, as we've been saying, bolts don't define a sport route. If there are bolts on an otherwise trad route, it's a trad route.
ok. Now I'm confused. I was tracking with you on the "may mean bolts+gear"...cool...in that case, the Nose "may" be mixed. But it's not mixed if I say "sport+trad"?
It appears that based on the informal definition of mixed, the Nose is mixed, but only when----oh wait, I think I finally get what you're saying. (I'm sure you'll correct me if you think I'm wrong) You're using the definition of mixed in the physical, tangible sense, as opposed to climbing style. I never meant for this argument to be about "style". I've meant "mixed" in that you place some gear, and there is some gear already in the rock.
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bishopclimber
Jan 30, 2004, 9:56 PM
Post #109 of 134
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In reply to: Seems like the Nose has religious significance to some here
Correct
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climbsomething
Jan 30, 2004, 10:02 PM
Post #110 of 134
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In reply to: Oh my. What an astounding string of unfounded generalizations and condescension. Followed by "but don't feel bad!" Incredible. This is what I'm coming to hate about this site. I found a new sport, loved it, then found this website full of people who love it too. But in every 2nd thread there is someone like you telling me why I should feel bad about it, because I don't do it like you do it. I don't need to know everything about trad climbing, or first ascent, or whatever other kind of climbing, to know this attitude is bullsh*t. But I'm done wasting my time fighting you types. Most of you just seem to want to feel superior. Funny... all the climbers I meet in real life are awesome people. Anyway mandrew... don't feel bad. ;-) This little rant of mine has been prompted by my entire experience here at RC.com, not just your post. |
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rmiller
Jan 30, 2004, 10:26 PM
Post #111 of 134
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In reply to: Ok so it's a trad route with a few sport pitches? Or am I still not getting it.
I just went back to see how this all started and I think I may have an answer to the question you posed that might be acceptable to everyone.
The nose is neither a trad climb or a sport climb. The nose is in fact an aid climb w/ some free pitches. The free pitches are trad pitches despite some fixed gear and bolts. There is not one pitch that is "bolts only" on the aid line (except the headwall maybe, I can't remember that far back. I think there was gear at the start of this pitch, however). Now for Lynn Hill, it is a trad climb and not an aid climb. She is the only one that can call it a trad climb. The chipped traverse that the free variation follows may be bolts only, but I have no clue since I haven't freed it.
Oh, and the three pictures you posted are as follows:
1) upper part of the Roof pitch-100% fixed except a hook move at the end.
2) Changing Corners pitch-starts trad, then a few bolts (I think a couple were added for the free variation), to a corner. The corner usually has some fixed Lost Arrows at the bottom, then it goes back to trad.
3) I think (and my memory is not so sure, so someone help if they can) that is the start off of Camp 5, which I believe has some fixed pins, not bolts. Actually now that I am lookign at it, I think it is the start of the Changing Corners pitch off of Camp 6. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Either way, it is not bolted down low. Actually, I remember camp 6 being much, much bigger. Oh hell, someone else tell me what the third pic is, I can't remember.
Ronnie
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 10:44 PM
Post #112 of 134
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In reply to: In reply to: Because there is no such thing as a "mixed" sport and trad route. Mixed formally, if you will, means ice + rock; ok, I agree with you on that. That's the definition I first knew it by. In reply to: informally, it may mean bolts + gear, but it never means sport + trad. Because, as we've been saying, bolts don't define a sport route. If there are bolts on an otherwise trad route, it's a trad route. ok. Now I'm confused. I was tracking with you on the "may mean bolts+gear"...cool...in that case, the Nose "may" be mixed. But it's not mixed if I say "sport+trad"? It appears that based on the informal definition of mixed, the Nose is mixed, but only when----oh wait, I think I finally get what you're saying. (I'm sure you'll correct me if you think I'm wrong) You're using the definition of mixed in the physical, tangible sense, as opposed to climbing style. I never meant for this argument to be about "style". I've meant "mixed" in that you place some gear, and there is some gear already in the rock.
What this argument is about is definitions. I suggest you forget about "mixed" routes in the gear sense. A "mixed" route is a route with some rock climbing and some ice climbing. If someone asks you, "does that route take gear or is it bolted," and you say, "both, it's mixed," they'll know what you are taking about, but that doesn't make it a "mixed route." If they ask you if it is "mixed trad and sport," the correct answer is, "huh?" because a route is either trad or sport. The two categories are mutually exclusive. Gear doesn't equate to trad and bolts don't equate to sport. Sport routes are those routes that (1) are protected by bolts only and (2) where the bolts are placed in a manner that allows climbers to focus on the difficulty of the moves without undue concern about the consequences of falling. All other free rock-climbing routes are trad.
-Jay
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jv
Jan 31, 2004, 12:24 AM
Post #113 of 134
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In reply to: I just went back to see how this all started and I think I may have an answer to the question you posed that might be acceptable to everyone. The nose is neither a trad climb or a sport climb. The nose is in fact an aid climb w/ some free pitches.
That makes it a trad climb.
In reply to: The free pitches are trad pitches despite some fixed gear and bolts. There is not one pitch that is "bolts only" on the aid line (except the headwall maybe, I can't remember that far back.
Here's where you auger in. Even if there were pitches that were solely protected by bolts, it would still be a trad climb.
In reply to: Now for Lynn Hill, it is a trad climb and not an aid climb.
Non sequitur. Aid is trad, even when you are on a bolt ladder. Trad doesn't mean "all free."
In reply to: She is the only one that can call it a trad climb.
Nonsense.
In reply to: The corner usually has some fixed Lost Arrows at the bottom, then it goes back to trad.
Fixed pitons make it something other than trad?? Are you just making this stuff up as you go?
JV
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rmiller
Jan 31, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #114 of 134
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JV,
An aid climb is an aid climb. Just because trad gear is used for protection does not make it a trad route. Would you go say, "let's go do that trad route Wyoming Sheep Ranch?" No, you would call it an aid climb or a big wall. When these terms are used, they are implying a separate style of ascent than a trad climb and usually the use of different gear. The term trad, to me, is associated with clean climbing gear and freeing the route. The word aid to me is associated with clean gear and/or pins used on sections that require direct "aid" to ascend the rock.
As for this comment-- Fixed pitons make it something other than trad?? Are you just making this stuff up as you go?
Are you kidding me? Are you just trying to stir shit up? All I was doing was describing the pitch in the picture. I was not making any conclusion or statements. Chill out. And no, fixed pins do not make a route something other than trad.
Anyway, now I need to go chill out.
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moabbeth
Jan 31, 2004, 6:00 AM
Post #115 of 134
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In reply to: heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh. Oooh, that was a good one. This site also questions the trad veracity of the Nose... which garners this thread this coveted award: The RC.com Award for Achievements in Gumbydom http://hillarydavis.com/.../more/gumbyrccom.jpg Congrats!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: !! But Hillary, WHAT ON EARTH did poor Pokey do to deserve being hung like Gumby is???? Was Pokey an ignorant belayer to Gumby?
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rjtrials
Jan 31, 2004, 6:51 AM
Post #116 of 134
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Being an El Cap and bigwall noob, I have to ask this question...
"How much fixed gear is still on the roof pitch of the Nose?"
Judging from the 10 seconds of roof that Dean Potter aids on MOS V, it seems that most if not all of the fixed stuff has been removed.
Would any recents ascensionists shed some light?
RJ
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jv
Jan 31, 2004, 6:32 PM
Post #117 of 134
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In reply to: Anyway, now I need to go chill out.
Good idea. Trad means traditional, as in the way it was done before sport climbing. As Jay points out, if it's not sport, it's tradtional. Before sport climbing, the same ethics applied across the board. It's a very broad category. And the root of your confusion is in trying to draw distinctions between fixed and removable gear, and whether it's free or aid.
Look at it this way: In sport the idea is to install protection in a way that minimizes the risk of injury from a fall. In trad, the idea is to climb the route from the ground up, placing protection along the way by the purest means possible. Routes with higher risk were, and still are, coveted, even if not at the top end of difficulty. (The second pitch of Bachar-Yerian, the one that people take the huge whippers from, is .11a) Aid standards were raised in pursuit of blanker lines with higher risk. New wave ratings were based on the length of the potential fall, fer cryin' out loud. It all comes from the same ethic.
JV
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noodlearms
Jan 31, 2004, 8:40 PM
Post #118 of 134
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In reply to: Somebody call a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhmbulance, we got a bleeder!!
Cool! I flushed another moron out of hiding!
Hillary, if you don't like the way I put it before, here's a translation in terms maybe you can understand:
F*** you, you posturing, elitist a**holes.
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noodlearms
Jan 31, 2004, 8:53 PM
Post #119 of 134
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In reply to: Oh, and the three pictures you posted are as follows:
Thanks very much for the info.
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jt512
Feb 2, 2004, 4:36 PM
Post #120 of 134
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In reply to: In reply to: Somebody call a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhmbulance, we got a bleeder!! Cool! I flushed another moron out of hiding! Hillary, if you don't like the way I put it before, here's a translation in terms maybe you can understand: F*** you, you posturing, elitist a**holes.
Does MHR2000 have three accounts?
-Jay
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plund
Feb 2, 2004, 4:52 PM
Post #121 of 134
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Damn - quite the rancor going! Referring to the original posted question - is Scott Burke still climbing?
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tucsonalex
Feb 2, 2004, 5:00 PM
Post #122 of 134
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In reply to: In reply to: Somebody call a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhmbulance, we got a bleeder!! Cool! I flushed another moron out of hiding! Hillary, if you don't like the way I put it before, here's a translation in terms maybe you can understand: F*** you, you posturing, elitist a**holes.
Hey noodlearms, maybe some of the people here would cut you some slack if you could take a step back and realize what a jacka$$ you look like by arguing a point that you obvioulsly know nothing about with people that have probably been climbing longer than you've been alive.
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climbsomething
Feb 2, 2004, 5:29 PM
Post #123 of 134
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In reply to: In reply to: Somebody call a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhmbulance, we got a bleeder!! Cool! I flushed another moron out of hiding! Hillary, if you don't like the way I put it before, here's a translation in terms maybe you can understand: F*** you, you posturing, elitist a**holes.
(I didn't say I wasn't an elitist :P )
Don't try to wrest victory by saying you pulled morons out of hiding, dip shit. We all know who the real moron is.
http://www.hillarydavis.com/...s/more/gumbyhand.jpg
^^^noodlearmz
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piton
Feb 2, 2004, 6:07 PM
Post #124 of 134
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:D haha this thread is funny. i thought the nose was an aid climb.
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mreardon
Feb 2, 2004, 7:00 PM
Post #125 of 134
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I completely agree with Ronnie on this one. If someone says a route is "aid" I expect to use some aid moves. If someone says it's "trad" I expect to free climb it with either distances between the bolts, or placing removable gear. If someone says "sport" I expect to wear tights, continue my homosexual urges, and climb in relative safety.
Lynn Hill is the only one who can call "The Nose" a trad climb because she free'd every pitch on lead. To everyone else, it's an aid climb. Any form of pulling on gear is Aid climbing. I learned that in "rockclimbing for dummies".
So here's the test.
At Suicide there's a climb called "The Pirate". One friend calls it an "aid climb." I call it a "trad climb." Now pay attention, because this part is really tricky - Which one of us do you suppose pulls on gear, and which one only uses the gear to catch a fall during a free climb attempt?
Ronnie doesn't make it up, he lives it. I got the beer Ronnie.
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