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roughster
Dec 27, 2003, 1:14 AM
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The Rough Rule has always been you can stick up to the 1st 2 bolts and still be legit. OMG imagine to my horror to find out my ascents are now invalid :shock:
Relax, stick clips should hardly be considered "cheating". And I agree that in many areas (especially chossy rock) its a good idea as holds blow and falling in many cases is very unexpected and has nothing to do with the climber. Throw chossy rock and high 1st bolt/ bad landing, and I'll grab the stick everytime and not think twice.
Hell if I lugged it all the way out to the crag, damn straight I am going to use it :)
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climbsomething
Dec 27, 2003, 1:27 AM
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Typical weak/n00b/bitter/tradcore (or all of the above) or just living-in-a-bomb-shelter proslytizing on stick clipping. Please, gumbies, now tell me what you think of pre-placed draw ascents, removing project draws, dogs at the crags, and people who think one-handed belayer ass shots of their toe-dragging toprope buddies are good.
In reply to: In reply to: NJC is not the only place where stick clips reign, and although it does draw a pretty big number of n00bsdoesn't jt512 live there during the winter?
bah humbug
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scotto
Dec 28, 2003, 2:02 AM
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whoa!! referee takes away one point let's try to keep the gloves above the belt. I can't speak from experience for any of the other climbers, but if you saw the routes that jt512 warms up on you wouldn't acuse him of using a stick to soften any of the routes he does when he really gets going. nuff said.
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climbsomething
Dec 29, 2003, 8:45 AM
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oh, no, I am not attacking Jay, I know him very well and I know what he projects out there... I've belayed him. Quite the contrary, I am simply kicking in the nads of people who think stick clips are cheating 8)
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cantbuymefriends
Dec 29, 2003, 10:00 AM
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In reply to: I haven't used a Squid, but a salesman and I fooled around with one at a climbing store. The device will allow you to clip your rope into a pre-hung draw more easily than other stick clips, and also, supposedly, will permit you to stick unclip, but neither the salesman nor I could figure out how to do so. -Jay
From what I get from the instructions, you can use the Squid to clip and unclip a draw to a bolt/hanger. You can also clip the rope to a pre-hung draw, but I don't think you can use it to unclip the rope.(?)
Instructions at http://www.trango.com/showitem.cfm?catnum=32&itemnum=196
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benpullin
Jan 3, 2004, 4:00 AM
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Don't worry Jay, rubes like powrslave that don't know what they are talking about can go on believing what they will.
Besides, these are the same noobs that carry cams and nut tools on their harnesses at Willi, wear quickdraws on their harnesses in the gym, and athletic socks under their climbing shoes.
By the way, do you want to notify the mags that Chris Sharma's ascent of Realization, Ramon Julian's ascent of La Rambla, and Tommy Caldwell's ascent of Flex Luthor were invalid, or shall I? After all, they had preplaced draws...
Idiots.
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jt512
Jan 3, 2004, 4:15 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I haven't used a Squid, but a salesman and I fooled around with one at a climbing store. The device will allow you to clip your rope into a pre-hung draw more easily than other stick clips, and also, supposedly, will permit you to stick unclip, but neither the salesman nor I could figure out how to do so. -Jay From what I get from the instructions, you can use the Squid to clip and unclip a draw to a bolt/hanger. You can also clip the rope to a pre-hung draw, but I don't think you can use it to unclip the rope.(?)
If all you need to do is get your rope out of the first draw, I don't think you need to spend $30 on a Squid.
Thanks for the link, though. It clearly shows how to stick un-clip.
-Jay
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crazyscuba
Jan 6, 2004, 6:49 AM
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if you want to use one then use it. If you dont want to use one, then dont use it. i dont personally use one but i see them a lot when i go out to our local choss pile. They use them a lot because its pretty loose rock or they are just more comfortable with it. So what if the 5.9 lead at red wing minnesota isnt "legit". at least they had fun and didnt get hurt.
i try to live by the quote "not all climbs are created equal, much like the people who get on them". if something is sketchy then im not gonna do it, but if someone comes along after and onsights it using a stick clip, all the power to em!
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itakealot
Jan 11, 2004, 4:40 AM
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In reply to: Is this a gumby thread? -Jay
You are gumby!
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jt512
Jan 12, 2004, 3:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Is this a gumby thread? -Jay You are gumby!
Yo, "Take," when I want your opinion I'll give it to you. Now STFU and bring cute chicks out to the crag.
-Jay
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mrme
Jan 30, 2004, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: got news for you: You don't have to put the draws up for the ascent to "count" either. Almost all hard redpoints are done with the draws pre-placed. y I thought if the draws were pre-placed and all you're doing is just climbing and clipping in rope it's called a "pinkpoint". That a redpoint is when you clip your own draws on the way up. At least that's what I'd always heard. "Pinkpoint" isn't heard much anymore in sport climbing. Since practically all hard worked routes are sent with the draws pre-placed, this style of ascent has become the norm, and an ascent of a worked route is called a "redpoint" whether the draws were pre-placed, or not. "Pinkpoint" is now primarily a term applied to "trad" routes, where clipping pre-placed gear is still considered an important stylistic difference from placing the gear on lead. -Jay
yea pinkpoint is none existent (even though it is harder to place the draw). just like stick clipping is becoming a norm. it will be accepted. why? because people are not like they used to be it is all about making it essayer not harder today.
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hasbeen
Jan 30, 2004, 6:16 PM
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knock, knock...
i'm pretty certain some of you people can write but cannot read. yes, it's always better style not to stick-clip or pre-place draws, for sure. of course, you can never climb at your absolute limit this way, but whatever floats your boat.
but many MANY sport areas are bolted with a stick-clip in mind. if you don't use one than you are probably doing the crux of the climb without pro because in many caves the steepest and blankest sections tend to be off the ground. at owl tor, for example, routes start with very hard boulder problems and to let go and clip would be unfathomable for the grade of the climb. sure, you could do it if you were on a climb that was, say, two grades below your limit. let's use better than life, a 13c. you stick clip a bolt about 14' off the deck and start with a v7 boulder problem that would be v9 or 10 if you tried to let go and clip in the middle, which would effectively change the grade of the route just to add a clip.
these starts can always be bouldered, which is certainly better style. but that's usually not how the route was designed to be climbed. so by not stick-clipping you are then changing what the first ascentionist had in mind. this is not a bad thing at all, but in way should you feel like a 'noob' if you do so.
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bones
Jan 30, 2004, 6:25 PM
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Okay, so if your stick clipping the first bolt because the moves are hard off the deck, then wouldn't your ascent be considered a top rope more than a lead?
I really don't care if people want to use a stick clip or not, you should do whatever makes you feel safe, but c'mon, let's at least be honest with ourselves and call it what it really is.
Now I'm off to start construction on my 30meter telescoping stick clip so I can just clip the anchors and get the redpoint!
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: Okay, so if your stick clipping the first bolt because the moves are hard off the deck, then wouldn't your ascent be considered a top rope more than a lead? I really don't care if people want to use a stick clip or not, you should do whatever makes you feel safe, but c'mon, let's at least be honest with ourselves and call it what it really is.
We are calling it what it is: a lead.
-Jay
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fredbob
Jan 30, 2004, 8:30 PM
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Who cares? A few routes you'd be silly not to stick clip, but most not. Still, its all a matter of style, and style is personal. So stick clip or not, its your choice.
However, saying anyone who doesn't stick clip is somehow inexperienced or lacking is some manner, is just another way of saying "my style is the only acceptable style and anyone who disagrees with me has to be wrong."
OK... whatever.
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soulsurfer
Jan 30, 2004, 9:06 PM
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I agree with going with your own style like fredbob said. If someone wants to stick clip then fine with me. If that means Sharma or any other hodad that pulls down super hard clips preplaced draws or stick clips is nothing to me.
I am too lazy to carry around a stick clip and don't climb hard enough to warrant it anywho.
That being said if I am belaying someone who wants to stick clip then fine with me. But don't be suprised as I am belaying if there seems to be a lot of rope drag as you are passing that first bolt. :twisted:
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trex
Jan 30, 2004, 10:19 PM
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This isn’t about cheating. It’s about style. Beyond that, it’s about ego!
To cheat is to be deceitful, to be fraudulent, to lie. Stick clipping bolts is not cheating. On the otherhand, to deceive or outright lie as to how one “sent” a particular route or problem is. Did Lynn Hill cheat when she TR’d Midnight lightning before finally sending it without the protection of a rope? No. Did Lisa Rands do it in better style when she sent it without TRing first? Yes. Would it have been cheating on Lynn’s part if those facts weren’t disclosed? Of course.
Or take Bachar and his free solo of The Gift. Did he cheat because he didn’t on-sight free solo it? No. If, on the other hand, his accomplishment was reported as a on-sight free solo, than yes it would be cheating. Get the picture?
Now then, hopefully having cleared that up, let’s Get real. Once upon a time climbers used static ropes and swami belts. Their gear consisted of pitons, actual machine nuts, and blocks of wood. There was no sticky rubber. Chalk didn’t really come along until John Gill used it in the mid-50’s. Hang dogging was once considered completely unacceptable. And one of the worst evils imaginable was bolting on rappel. And every time climbers embraced the progress made in these and other various areas it was considered cheating
Hell, crash pads were even considered cheating at one time (and for anyone who thinks that the use of crash pads in bouldering -- which is exactly the same as stick-clipping the first bolt in sport climbing, allowing a climber to concentrate on pulling harder without the fear of decking on hard ground -- isn’t significantly contributing to the absolutely insane accomplishments of today’s hardest bouldering, that is, allowing boulderers to pull harder and worry less, you’re in denial . . . seriously, go get counseling, your problems are far deeper than can be addressed here). In fact, ALL of the changes, especially the improvements in climbing method and protection were at one time or another considered cheating. But by whom? Well, mostly by those who felt challenged, who felt that theirs was the only “acceptable” way of climbing. By those who felt the need to say, “look at me, look at how I did it, I am the one that’s better”. And, typically, other various ego related reasons.
Bottom line, it is what it is. Both the improvement in gear and methods (including crash pads and the use of them) have allowed climbers to push the physical limits and movements in climbing with less risk of injury. So for those of you whom the proverbial shoe fits, unless you’re out there “sending” simply as the naked-ape that you are, you should quit your childish whining about people using stick-clips. About whether or not they’ve pre-placed the draws. Or whether or not the first bolt has the rope running through it. And so on, and so on.
Climbers should climb as they see fit, and then report their accomplishments within that context, be it to there friends at the pub, here, or in the pages of Rock & Ice. But to try and build one’s worth by demeaning other’s methods is absurd! Any arguments to do so quickly become illogical and flawed. As illustrated previously in this thread when crash pads were brought into the discussion in an attempt to justify not stick-clipping the first bolt. How completely idiotic.
We as climbers don’t hike crash pads to sport climbing crags along with our rope, harness, and draws anymore than we carry gear to go bouldering. Simply put, we use different “tools” for different types of climbing. Naturally, things evolve from there and we then develop different methods of usage and standards of acceptability.
So climb as you will. Use the specific equipment and methods with which you feel most comfortable, improve your style as you see fit, and then report your accomplishments accurately. But for the love of God people, and especially at the crags where people have to listen to your ridiculous comments, PLEASE, quit your damn complaining as to how others are doing it!
…and Joe, get back to work.
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abalch
Jan 30, 2004, 11:50 PM
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Use a stick clip if you wanna--just be honest and admit that you did when you claim you climbed that route. I don't personally feel that stick clipping a route makes it a legitimate redpoint, but maybe I am just to hard on myself. I may use a stick clip when I am workig a project, to get the moves down before I totally commit to the crux, but if I use a stick clip anywhere on the route, I wont' say I redpointed, or pinkpointed, or whatever you want to call it this week.
Perhaps what sport climbing needs is another term: "stickpoint", for when a stick clip is used anywhere on the route. incidentally, it also could be used for those who need to pull the stick out of their @SS, and let people climb like they want to.
so, work the route however you want, as long as you aren't destroying the route for me. Just, in the end, be honest with yourself and others--people will respect it much more.
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crazyscuba
Feb 4, 2004, 6:34 AM
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so trex, if a crash pad and a stick clip are the same by your definition, would that mean that a spotter is the same as both of those? i mean, since they allow the person to climb harder without having to worry as much about the hard ground, then it should be the same right?
sorry, but having a crash pad on the ground doesnt aid you in the actual climbing of the route or problem.
But i do agree with some of the stuff you said. well written at least.
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mreardon
Feb 5, 2004, 5:45 PM
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Is it cheating pre-clipping? To some. Safer definitely, especially at a place like NJC where holds have been known to blow out. There is definitely a difference in whether or not a bolt was pre-clipped, but common practice these days is to not mention pre-clipped unless someone put the draws up on lead.
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tripperjm
Feb 6, 2004, 1:25 PM
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In reply to: especially at a place like NJC where holds have been known to blow out.
HAHAHAHA!!1
Just squint a little more, that rock is pristine!
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mreardon
Feb 8, 2004, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: especially at a place like NJC where holds have been known to blow out. I think mreardon just called NJC a choss pile? HAHAHAHA!!1 Just squint a little more, that rock is pristine!
Chossy? NJC? I would never say that. However, I do remember several trips where my belayers demanded wearing helmets.... :D
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oudinardin
Feb 8, 2004, 3:38 PM
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In reply to: Who cares!? If you wanna stick clip the first bolt, clip it. If you wanna have the rope through the first draw, or the second draw, or the third draw, do it, whatever your reasons are. "Cheating" is not really the issue; its more about style. |
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tripperjm
Feb 8, 2004, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: especially at a place like NJC where holds have been known to blow out. I think mreardon just called NJC a choss pile? HAHAHAHA!!1 Just squint a little more, that rock is pristine! Chossy? NJC? I would never say that. However, I do remember several trips where my belayers demanded wearing helmets.... :D
Try pulling DOWN on the holds instead of OUT. Hell I haven't had a hold break on me out there in years.... or was it last weekend?
HAHAHAHA!!!1
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jt512
Feb 9, 2004, 5:01 PM
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