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ylofvr
Feb 9, 2004, 10:59 PM
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I wanted input on the safety of lack of in using rap rings instead of an atc.
I did this once when a partner forgot an atc for a belay device. I pulled a bight of rope through 2 rap rings than into my belay biner. It worked fine. Last weekend a different partner forgot an atc so I used it to belay and rappel. It created more resistance than an ATC and wanted to move against the large biner when I was breaking which would nearly lock it up.
Other than being only a little clumsy, it seems like it would be safe and seemed to work better with much less set up time than a carabiner brake and gave more resistance than a munter hitch.
Am I missing something or is this a reasonable fix.
Thanks for any input.
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skiclimb
Feb 9, 2004, 11:04 PM
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Strengthwise I wouldn't be concerned...however loss of control could be an issue if it rides too far up the rope or you make a mistake when unsticking it when it locks dow..
Suggest a simpler and easier to handle alternative....The Munter Hitch....which does give adequate resistance.
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jt512
Feb 9, 2004, 11:06 PM
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In reply to: I wanted input on the safety of lack of in using rap rings instead of an atc. I did this once when a partner forgot an atc for a belay device. I pulled a bight of rope through 2 rap rings than into my belay biner. It worked fine. Last weekend a different partner forgot an atc so I used it to belay and rappel. It created more resistance than an ATC and wanted to move against the large biner when I was breaking which would nearly lock it up. Other than being only a little clumsy, it seems like it would be safe and seemed to work better with much less set up time than a carabiner brake and gave more resistance than a munter hitch. Am I missing something or is this a reasonable fix. Thanks for any input.
D4.
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kman
Feb 9, 2004, 11:08 PM
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So you had no idea if it is safe or not and you gave it a try on rappell. Hmmmm...Why not just use the munter hitch?
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petsfed
Feb 9, 2004, 11:09 PM
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If you're in a pinch, set up a carabiner break, a munter hitch, or at worst use like a #7 hex. They're all a bit more predictable (at the least) than a rap ring set up.
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atg200
Feb 9, 2004, 11:12 PM
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nope, this is pretty stupid. rap rings are hollow little things that really aren't meant to hold up to friction under load. it may have worked, but setting a top rope with a clothes line may work for a little while too.
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petsfed
Feb 9, 2004, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: This site describes just about every belay device under the sun- here's the page describing using a chain link as a belay/rappel device, http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Belay/StichtBelayPages/Sticht603.html
Lets compare:
Rap ring
vs.
chain links/quick links
One is a hollow, rolled ring of aluminum. The other is a piece of cast steel. One has a strength rating. One doesn't. One is designed for considerable amounts of wear and tear. The other is cheap so you don't mind leaving it behind just once.
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jt512
Feb 9, 2004, 11:31 PM
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In reply to: So you had no idea if it is safe or not and you gave it a try on rappell. Hmmmm...Why not just use the munter hitch?
To use a munter hitch to descend, he could simply tie the rope around his neck with the munter hitch and jump off the cliff. Ultimately, the outcome will be the same, but the munter hitch is faster, though it may kink the rope.
-Jay
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iltripp
Feb 10, 2004, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: Other than being only a little clumsy, it seems like it would be safe and seemed to work better with much less set up time than a carabiner brake and gave more resistance than a munter hitch.
A munter hitch provides more than sufficient resistance. If I remember correctly, it provides more friction than an eight. I've wrapped with a munter hitch when I dropped my atc. I wouldn't do it often due to the kinking. Also, with multiple, long distance raps, I would think it might cause too much rope on rope friction and would be a liability, but that's just speculation.
In reply to: To use a munter hitch to descend, he could simply tie the rope around his neck with the munter hitch and jump off the cliff. Ultimately, the outcome will be the same, but the munter hitch is faster, though it may kink the rope. -Jay
Jay, Why do you say that? What's wrong with the munter as a rappel device? Granted, I wouldn't do it with a better option, but it works. Is there a danger here I don't know about?
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jt512
Feb 10, 2004, 12:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Other than being only a little clumsy, it seems like it would be safe and seemed to work better with much less set up time than a carabiner brake and gave more resistance than a munter hitch. A munter hitch provides more than sufficient resistance. If I remember correctly, it provides more friction than an eight. I've wrapped with a munter hitch when I dropped my atc. I wouldn't do it often due to the kinking. Also, with multiple, long distance raps, I would think it might cause too much rope on rope friction and would be a liability, but that's just speculation. In reply to: To use a munter hitch to descend, he could simply tie the rope around his neck with the munter hitch and jump off the cliff. Ultimately, the outcome will be the same, but the munter hitch is faster, though it may kink the rope. -Jay Jay, Why do you say that? What's wrong with the munter as a rappel device? Granted, I wouldn't do it with a better option, but it works. Is there a danger here I don't know about?
The danger is with the rap rings. My post was meant as acerbic humor.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Feb 10, 2004, 12:17 AM
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In reply to: nope, this is pretty stupid. rap rings are hollow little things that really aren't meant to hold up to friction under load. it may have worked, but setting a top rope with a clothes line may work for a little while too.
Some rap rings are not hollow.
However even the non-hollow ones will still ride up the rope.
Like everyone else said, use a munter hitch, it's a great rappel, and you can't forget to bring it unless you don't have an HMS biner and a rope!
NOTE: Rappelling without a rope is VERY dangerous!
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thegreytradster
Feb 10, 2004, 12:24 AM
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Been there, done that! back when I was to cheap to buy a slinky on a hocky puck (Stitcht Plate)
Works ok, but gets reallyhot if used for a rappel.
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moeman
Feb 10, 2004, 12:42 AM
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How about the good old fashioned carabiner brake belay? It works really well, and only requires 6 biners.
Or just don't forget the ATC...
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climbsomething
Feb 10, 2004, 12:47 AM
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Wow. Um, innovative, you could say, but I would not recommend this. A dulfersitz would probly be safer!
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mesomorf
Feb 10, 2004, 12:55 AM
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Huh...sometimes it's really fun to be such an old timer.
Why, I remember, back in the day, the hip belay was the ONLY way to belay, and the newfangled carabiner brake was WAY better than a dulfersitz. And harnesses were better than tying the rope around your waist.
People were very suspicious about having to carry an extra device just to belay and rappel with. At least we knew what to do if the device got dropped.
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atg200
Feb 10, 2004, 1:58 AM
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dirtineye - every rap ring i've seen in more than ten years of climbing has been hollow aluminum. i've seen plenty of quicklinks and things of that nature that are solid steel, but never something marketed as a rap ring. do you happen to have a link thats shows a solid rap ring?
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skiclimb
Feb 10, 2004, 2:19 AM
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I have a couple old solid steel rap rings ..they are welded at one point and I would actually trust the rolled aluminum ones more.
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dirtineye
Feb 10, 2004, 2:37 AM
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In reply to: dirtineye - every rap ring i've seen in more than ten years of climbing has been hollow aluminum. i've seen plenty of quicklinks and things of that nature that are solid steel, but never something marketed as a rap ring. do you happen to have a link thats shows a solid rap ring?
http://www.ushba.com/product_info.html
Solid titanium rap rings LOL. Machined from tubing. Currently out of stock, but I still have one on hand.
I believe Kong also makes some huge fat solid rap rings out of either aluminum or stainless. they are listed as rescue items.
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jt512
Feb 10, 2004, 2:45 AM
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In reply to: NOTE: Rappelling without a rope is VERY dangerous!
Ah, yes, the ever-popular free solo rappel.
-Jay
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moeman
Feb 10, 2004, 2:51 AM
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Again, Carabiner brake rappel. It works. Mountaneering, Freedom of the Hills recomends it. Buy the book.
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atg200
Feb 10, 2004, 2:55 AM
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dirtineye - cool, thanks. i hadn't seen those before - i would order a few, if i couldn't buy a biner for the same amount of money ;)
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trguy
Feb 10, 2004, 2:58 AM
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Another link for solid rap rings. Fixe makes welded stainless steel rap rings from 11 mm rod stock.
I tinkered around with these Fixe rap rings as you've described. Looks like you've basically made a shallow "tuber" belay device. While I doubt these particular rings would fail, I agree with everyone else - stick to the munter hitch or the biner break.
http://secure.serverlab.net/store/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=K00100&Category_Code=Anchors
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dirtineye
Feb 10, 2004, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: dirtineye - cool, thanks. i hadn't seen those before - i would order a few, if i couldn't buy a biner for the same amount of money ;)
The kong ones are cheap in Aluminum. I think wholesale was 2 bucks and they are SOOO big and fat, bigger cross section than most carabiners.
Now I have to go see how much the fixe rap rings cost, thanks for the link trguy
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ylofvr
Feb 10, 2004, 6:16 AM
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I appreciate the input and will play more (on the ground) with the caribiner brake and munter hitch.
One obvious question from reading these comments, with all the bashing the rap rings got for being flimsy, why would one use them for their intended purpose?
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